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Post by saveforhalf on Mar 27, 2013 21:46:01 GMT -6
I think it's a good idea if someone is specifically trying to emulate a Tolkien-esque world. It does run contrary, however, to most of the other fantasy literature interpretations of elves, such as Michael Moorcock's Elric Saga, Lord Dunsany's King of Elfland's Daughter, Poul Anderson's The Broken Sword, and the classical fey version of elves. This new Cleric/Elf variant targets one very specific version of an elf (Tolkein's) while ignoring or contradicting most, if not all, other literary versions of elves.
It's funny that there seems to be a dislike of vaguely "Christian" clerics, however, Tolkien's elves get there powers due to having lived amongst the Valar and Maiar (archangels and angels) in Arda (heaven on earth or the Garden of Eden). Tolkien's writings have Christian overtones and many of the elements: Valar, Maiar, Arda, Eru, Melkor/Morgoth, etc. have direct parallels in Christian belief. Why do people have a problem with vaguely "Christian" clerics but not vaguely "Christian" elves?
Also, I'm not sure why the lack of literary justification for the cleric is such an issue. I thought that D&D drew inspiration from fantasy literature, but was designed to be a game, not a tool directly emulate fantasy literature. (of course, it's flexible enough to do so, but I'm not sure that was the intent)
Unless one is trying to run a story-based game emulating a specific world, does it really matter whether the cleric has a basis in literature or is a new creation designed to fill a specific role in the D&D game?
The Cleric/Elf variant seems cool if one is trying to emulate Tolkien, but I see it as less "generic fantasy" than the Cleric and Elf classes as written BtB.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 27, 2013 21:48:25 GMT -6
Tolkien's elves are only obliquely influenced by Christianity; spells like 'part water' are explicitly and clearly Christian.
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Post by saveforhalf on Mar 27, 2013 22:17:59 GMT -6
Tolkien's elves are only obliquely influenced by Christianity; spells like 'part water' are explicitly and clearly Christian. "Part Water" is just as Jewish and Muslim as it is Christian. The story of Moses appears in all three major western religious traditions. It's not too surprising that a D&D character class based on the concept of a holy man would have spells based on powers found in the major western religious traditions - Jewish, Christian, and Muslim.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 27, 2013 22:52:58 GMT -6
There are a number of exclusively or principally Christian elements to the cleric IIRC, including holy water (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_water) or the edged weapon prohibition. There are far fewer principally Muslim or Jewish elements. Isolated spells like 'part water' do not by themselves establish a Christian background, but the overall theme of the cleric is Christian.
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Post by talysman on Mar 27, 2013 23:35:14 GMT -6
Definitely Christian, but that doesn't matter if you are talking about Tolkien elves, for reasons already cited. Glorfindel's confrontation with the Nazghul might be Turn Undead, but there's also a Part Water/Raise Water element in there. The waters come crashing down on the Nazghul and sweep them away. Tolkien almost certainly intended the scene to recall the armies of Pharoah being swallowed by the Red Sea.
Although the parting of waters specifically is not exclusively Judeo-Christian-Muslim:
"Then Zazamankh stood at the stern of the Royal Boat and began to chant great spells and words of power. And presently he held out his wand over the water, and the lake parted as if a piece had been cut out of it with a great sword. The lake here was twenty feet deep, and the piece of water that the magician moved rose up and set itself upon the surface of the lake so that there was a cliff of water on that side forty feet high."
--- from the Egyptian story "The Golden Lotus"
Krishna also parts the waters, and there are similar stories in other mythologies.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 28, 2013 4:41:00 GMT -6
The Cleric/Elf variant seems cool if one is trying to emulate Tolkien, but I see it as less "generic fantasy" than the Cleric and Elf classes as written BtB. It is a lot of fun to take the game and make it your own, and a less generic fantasy setting is exactly what some people want. I use the Cleric very close to the way it was written in my campaign but I'm also happy to give my input to someone wanting to create a variant.
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18 Spears
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Yeah ... Spear This Ya' Freak!
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Post by 18 Spears on Mar 29, 2013 20:34:58 GMT -6
If the scenario you described were to happen I didn't describe a scenario. Post was short & to point. That was a problem I guess. You'uns experience with your group does not mean that is what everyone will see. Im gone so I dont hurt any body elses feelings.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 29, 2013 23:54:48 GMT -6
Well, I'm glad we've managed to hound you off the forums - just like you helped to hound off aher.
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18 Spears
BANNED
Yeah ... Spear This Ya' Freak!
Posts: 251
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Post by 18 Spears on Mar 30, 2013 20:07:49 GMT -6
Well, I'm glad we've managed to hound you off the forums - just like you helped to hound off aher. I mean gone from discusion okay? I wasnt only guy given aher a bad time. Follow me to other threads or msg me if you want keep at me tough guy.
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Post by Finarvyn on Mar 31, 2013 5:13:30 GMT -6
Well, I'm glad we've managed to hound you off the forums - just like you helped to hound off aher. None of this, please. Our goal is not to run anyone off of the boards. Play nice.
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Post by archersix on Mar 31, 2013 19:17:36 GMT -6
Ok, back to the discussion....I've always enjoyed playing human clerics. I've never thought in terms of a lack of literary justification for the class. I usually just invision Bishop Odo at Hastings and try to channel him as best I can. A lot of yelling "Repent!" while swinging my mace and stuff like that. The neat spells are a bonus
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akooser
Level 4 Theurgist
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Post by akooser on Apr 19, 2013 11:56:30 GMT -6
Here is what we did for our White Box game using S&W
ELVES Elves are far removed from the battle between law and chaos. They follow their own path of sorrow and undying.
Elf Advancement Table
1 Gather 0 1d6 14 2 Wanderer 1,750 2d6 13 3 Outcast 3,500 2d6+1 12 After 3rd level elves make a choice to head West or stay and face their decline.
Elf Spells per Day 1 2 1 1 2 2 3 2 1
1st Level Spells Harn’s Release (Cure light wounds, requires clean water, herbs, and time) Gaze of Morgul (Detect evil, a few moments of concentration) Fuin’s Insight (Detect unnatural magic) Aduial’s Blessing (Light, equal to starlight) Song of Luth (Protection from Evil, must be sung) Banishment of Thoben (Purify Food and Drink, requires time and fresh air)
The actually text of the spells is fairly heavily hacked as well.
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Post by scottenkainen on Apr 19, 2013 12:46:59 GMT -6
That's terrific stuff, Akooser. I'd love to see more notes from any Middle Earth campaigns using OD&D or S&W.
~Scott "-enkainen" Casper
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2013 14:03:23 GMT -6
I agree wholeheartedly. Deserving of an exalt, actually.
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akooser
Level 4 Theurgist
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Post by akooser on Apr 19, 2013 14:06:32 GMT -6
I'll get a nice looking pdf put together over the weekend! Thanks for the comments.
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machpants
Level 5 Thaumaturgist
Supersonic Underwear!
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Post by machpants on Apr 19, 2013 17:23:25 GMT -6
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akooser
Level 4 Theurgist
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Post by akooser on Apr 19, 2013 19:17:43 GMT -6
machpants Nice. Reminds me I need to post the Eldest of Elves class which using the Cleric Turn Undead table to a different effect.
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Post by waysoftheearth on Apr 20, 2013 19:03:54 GMT -6
That's terrific stuff, Akooser. I'd love to see more notes from any Middle Earth campaigns using OD&D or S&W. You may be interested in the Men & Magic of Middle Earth thread I wrote up a while back.
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akooser
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Post by akooser on Apr 21, 2013 9:23:59 GMT -6
What we did with the Turn Undead table was made it in a table of Awe.
The elf can draw themselves up and the world slightly warps around them, things darken, the voice rolls through the hills, and so on.
Instead of turning the elf can cause hesitation or fleeing depending on the level of the elf and the HDs of the creatures targeted.
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Post by Red Baron on Feb 17, 2014 16:23:03 GMT -6
From another thread: Over on the K&K boards francisca wrote the following: So my 7 year old son is perusing the Labyrinth Lord manual the other day, and I hear him say, "Woah. Creeeeeepy...."
And I ask, of course, as he is reading it in my presence so I can answer any questions he may have.
He says, "Clerics can turn undead!"
I look at him, puzzled. "yep, that is one of the cool features of clerics. You roll 2d6 on that chart on the other page to see what happens."
So he's looking at the chart, with eyes bugged out, and it occurs to me that he interpreted "turn undead" as "become undead".(link: www.knights-n-knaves.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?p=79297#79297 ) That would be a freaking awesome, over-the-top, Arduin-ish D&D variant. (Kind of like the same misunderstanding that gave each monster a "% Is Liar".) Here's a way to try to quantify the concept: Once each day a cleric can try to become undead. He consults the charts and picks which undead to try to become. If his turn roll succeeds, then he becomes that type of undead for 3-12 turns. If his turn roll succeeds with a D, he becomes that type of undead for 2-5 hours. (Note that this REPLACES the cleric's ability to make undead run away or serve. It is NOT in addition to.) That would make a badass elf.
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jdjarvis
Level 4 Theurgist
Hmmm,,,, had two user names, I'll be using this one from now on.
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Post by jdjarvis on Feb 17, 2014 17:34:16 GMT -6
From another thread: Over on the K&K boards francisca wrote the following: So my 7 year old son is perusing the Labyrinth Lord manual the other day, and I hear him say, "Woah. Creeeeeepy...."
And I ask, of course, as he is reading it in my presence so I can answer any questions he may have.
He says, "Clerics can turn undead!"
I look at him, puzzled. "yep, that is one of the cool features of clerics. You roll 2d6 on that chart on the other page to see what happens."
So he's looking at the chart, with eyes bugged out, and it occurs to me that he interpreted "turn undead" as "become undead".(link: www.knights-n-knaves.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?p=79297#79297 ) That would be a freaking awesome, over-the-top, Arduin-ish D&D variant. (Kind of like the same misunderstanding that gave each monster a "% Is Liar".) Here's a way to try to quantify the concept: Once each day a cleric can try to become undead. He consults the charts and picks which undead to try to become. If his turn roll succeeds, then he becomes that type of undead for 3-12 turns. If his turn roll succeeds with a D, he becomes that type of undead for 2-5 hours. (Note that this REPLACES the cleric's ability to make undead run away or serve. It is NOT in addition to.) That would make a badass elf. Let me plug the Moribund aeonsnaugauries.blogspot.com/2010/06/themoribund-curious-old-school-class.html?m=1As for HighElves as clerics, works for me as long as the exp totals to level-up are high.
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Post by Malcadon on Feb 17, 2014 22:20:12 GMT -6
That would be a freaking awesome, over-the-top, Arduin-ish D&D variant. (Kind of like the same misunderstanding that gave each monster a "% Is Liar".) It sounds like something I heard once. A guy DMing back in the '70s assumed that "Save vs Stone" was a saving throw for avoiding falling rocks. I cant blame him, as that entry sounded ambiguous. When I first DM, I my eye saw "Hit Dice" as "Hit Points", so our first game started-off ridiculously simple, as the players killed the first few monsters with only one hit, before I pick-up and corrected my mistake. Beyond that, I like the idea that small misunderstandings like "% In Liar" and "Clerics Become Undead" could yield some cool house rules.
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