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Post by aldarron on Feb 3, 2013 18:37:23 GMT -6
Michael has done such a brilliant job with the Prentice book, I couldn't help but putting together a "wishlist" for the complete set. I'm guessing some of you will have more to add. Anyway, here goes:
Holmes Character Races
A Dreenoi character race. Centaur character race
Holmesian character names like:
Sareesa Wingfoot Anvil the Dwarf Mother Grillo Grog
From Confessions of a Dungeon Master:
Use of miniatures as per confessions of a dungeon master, where Holmes describes drawing map/terrain on a tabletop coated with balckboard paint.
Also from the article, and again on page 26 og his FRPG book, Holmes stresses the use of percentile dice to resolve questions of chance, with the chances of success being judged by the referee, who may accept some advice on the matter from his players.
From the Dragon3 52 article:
Heal does not cure paralysis.
Charmed MU’ss can still cast spells.
The monsters from "The Lovecraftian Mythos in D&D" in Dragon #12 and These Monsters:
Tribal Gremlins (CoaDM)
Cyclopia (Invented by me to explain the monster image from the British edition.)
Enchanted Statue (FTRP)
Flower Stalks (FTRP)
Tentacled Maw (FTRP)
Giant Gila Monster (FTRP)
Vampire Bat (Basic book)
Warrior Skeleton (Basic Book dungeon)
Large Octopus (Basic Book dungeon)
Giant Crab (Basic Book dungeon)
Ape (Basic Book dungeon)
Giant Snake (Basic Book dungeon)
Holmes related rules:
Putting in a version of the additional game rules in B1 (rules for hirelings/henchman, mapping, marching order)
A version replicating The section PORTCULLISES, AND DOUBLE PORTCULLISES from the original release of Module B3, Palace of the Silver Princess by Jean Wells. Yes I know it’s not Holmes but its a good, forgotten, Holmes era rule that has more general application.
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Post by scottenkainen on Feb 3, 2013 20:25:09 GMT -6
I would be interested in a rulebook that only covered levels 4-7 and would be halfway in between Holmes and AD&D, for a slower transition into AD&D.
~Scott "-enkainen" Casper
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Post by Vile Traveller on Feb 3, 2013 22:42:15 GMT -6
Excellent thread, aldarron - have an exalt! This is actually very useful to me, especially as I'm very aware that I might be missing out on some Holmes references. I still haven't been able to track down a copy of Holmes's Fantasy Role Playing Games book, for one thing. I suspect all of your list will make it into Compleat, once I've finished wrestling with the witch class. So, what classes for centaurs - fighting man and magic-user (or cleric)? I like the idea of generally uncouth centaurs with the occasional sage, as per the Greek classics. What are the dreenoi? I decided on the level 14 cut-off because I feel the system still works pretty well at those levels, ordinary monsters are still a threat, and some of the cooler 6th level clerical and magic-user spells have a chance to come into play. It also allows for some 'name level' stronghold action if that's what people want. scottenkainen, I'm afraid you'll just have to ignore levels 8-14!
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Post by Vile Traveller on Feb 4, 2013 7:59:06 GMT -6
Okay, I get the dreenoi reference now. Unfortunately they belong to the Starguard game which is still well and truly alive. Still, one should be able to do something, seeing as they were based on the bugs in Starship Troopers. Not sure how well the hive mind thing works for a PC race, but there must be a way. Hmm .. drenoi? Drenni (singular drenn)?
Not planning to include a werebear as a basic PC race, though, and samurai are too real-Earth for me.
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Post by snorri on Feb 4, 2013 12:58:06 GMT -6
I guess Thri-kreen from MMII (later porpularized in Dark Sun) could be an alternative to dreenoi.
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Alex
Level 3 Conjurer
Posts: 92
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Post by Alex on Feb 4, 2013 15:06:13 GMT -6
I was going to suggest that, but snorri was quicker.
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Post by Vile Traveller on Feb 4, 2013 17:08:02 GMT -6
Thri-kreen are unfortunately not in the SRD. However, insect men are not exactly an original concept so I'm sure I can work out something.
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Post by aldarron on Feb 4, 2013 19:09:15 GMT -6
Not sure if you are in the UK or thereabouts but if you are there's this www.amazon.co.uk/Fantasy-Role-Playing-Games-Holmes/dp/0853681589/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1360023405&sr=8-1 Okay, I get the dreenoi reference now. Unfortunately they belong to the Starguard game which is still well and truly alive. Still, one should be able to do something, seeing as they were based on the bugs in Starship Troopers. Not sure how well the hive mind thing works for a PC race, but there must be a way. Hmm .. drenoi? Drenni (singular drenn)? Okay. hmm maybe Dreenoi is a plural for Dreen...... Not planning to include a werebear as a basic PC race, though, and samurai are too real-Earth for me. With you there. Lycanthropy is disease, not a class, and samurai is just a style of fighter, IMHO.
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Post by blackbarn on Feb 12, 2013 17:29:53 GMT -6
Great ideas, guys!
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Post by Vile Traveller on Feb 12, 2013 21:48:20 GMT -6
I've actually decided to go all the way with PC races. In fact, this may save some page count. In essence, just about any monster can be a player character, so there are no player race descriptions at the front of the book any more. Instead, the most suitable races have extra information for PC use in their monster chapter entry. There will also be discussion on how to use the more tricky races as PCs, but basically, the principle is:
"Anything goes if you can make it work in your game."
As for classes, I will definitely stick to five (cleric, fighting man, magic-user, thief and witch). The other classes promised in the Blue Book will simply be monster entries, in the style of bandits and berserkers.
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Post by thorswulf on Feb 12, 2013 22:48:44 GMT -6
Dreenoi IS the singular and plural. They are telepathic amongst themselves only, and what one sees they all see. Their chitinous bodies are very hard and they do better hand to hand damage than humans with just their mandibles and claws. If you really want to use them why not ask John McEwan the creator of Starguard. Do a search for his company Reviresco on the web and email him. By the way he still sells his "primitive" Dreenoi that come unarmed, so you can add medieval weapons to them!
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Post by Vile Traveller on Feb 12, 2013 23:47:31 GMT -6
Great idea, thorswulf - I was going to just make up my own version, but I think I'll drop John a line and see what he says.
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Post by Vile Traveller on Feb 13, 2013 0:24:34 GMT -6
Unfortunately I can't find a seller who'll ship to my location (Hong Kong). I'm trying one on AbeBooks, I'll let you know how it turns out.
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Post by Vile Traveller on Feb 13, 2013 3:06:34 GMT -6
If you really want to use them why not ask John McEwan the creator of Starguard. Great idea, thorswulf - I was going to just make up my own version, but I think I'll drop John a line and see what he says. And, just like that, dreenoi are in the game! I emailed John McEwan and got the go-ahead. I love it when old school stuff comes together.
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idrahil
Level 6 Magician
The Lighter The Rules, The Better The Game!
Posts: 398
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Post by idrahil on Feb 13, 2013 7:11:33 GMT -6
Regarding classes, does Holmes refer to "Fighting Men" of other races as Fighting Men?
Meaning, at first I found it confusing to read "Fighting Man Dwarf" and "Fighting Man Halfling".
Is Dwarf Fighter or Dreenoi Fighter not good for the Holmes theme?
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Post by Vile Traveller on Feb 13, 2013 7:15:22 GMT -6
Is Dwarf Fighter or Dreenoi Fighter not good for the Holmes theme? "Fighting man" is definitely a distinguishing feature of Holmes (and OD&D) when compared to later editions. And yes, there are dwarf fighting men, halfling fighting men, centaur fighting men, dreenoi fighting men, and so forth. And fighting women, of course.
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Post by thorswulf on Feb 13, 2013 10:48:28 GMT -6
Somehow that doesn't surprise me, Vile. John is definitely OSR, if not older considering he had been wargaming using Chainmail before D&D came out. I have the great luxury of gaming with him, and we share all kinds of old magazines, and other nifty stuff. He's also a huge Cthulhu buff, and has a wonderful collection of figs too.
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Post by aldarron on Feb 13, 2013 18:33:24 GMT -6
I've actually decided to go all the way with PC races. In fact, this may save some page count. In essence, just about any monster can be a player character, so there are no player race descriptions at the front of the book any more. Instead, the most suitable races have extra information for PC use in their monster chapter entry. There will also be discussion on how to use the more tricky races as PCs, but basically, the principle is: "Anything goes if you can make it work in your game." As for classes, I will definitely stick to five (cleric, fighting man, magic-user, thief and witch). The other classes promised in the Blue Book will simply be monster entries, in the style of bandits and berserkers. Exalt!
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zeraser
Level 4 Theurgist
Posts: 184
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Post by zeraser on Feb 13, 2013 18:35:18 GMT -6
Surely it's time to dispense with the manifestly sexist "fighting man" (which requires those of a more egalitarian bent to inconveniently append "... and fighting women, of course") in favor of the simpler "fighter." If "fighting man" may be symptomatic of Holmes, that's only because it's symptomatic of a time when there were far fewer female gamers and those that were around were less able (Jean Wells aside) to make their voices heard.
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Post by Vile Traveller on Feb 13, 2013 19:09:11 GMT -6
I agree with you in principle, zeraser, and the 2nd and 3rd editions of Blueholme will certainly follow that route. However, this 1st edition is, above all, an attempt to create a simulacrum as close as possible to the original Holmes edition - including the anachronistic terminology.
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Post by Vile Traveller on Feb 19, 2013 7:03:13 GMT -6
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Post by snorri on Feb 19, 2013 11:18:39 GMT -6
I do'nt know if it could fit the wishlist, but the semi-official Holmes translation in french had several special features, the best one being the replaceemnt of halfling by gnomes - with sames games characteristics.
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idrahil
Level 6 Magician
The Lighter The Rules, The Better The Game!
Posts: 398
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Post by idrahil on Feb 19, 2013 19:30:26 GMT -6
Haha that's awesome!
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Post by Vile Traveller on Feb 19, 2013 22:35:57 GMT -6
Heh, yeah - gnomes, halflings, dwarves and kobolds still have pretty closely overlapping roles and appearances in OD&D/Holmes (and possibly elves, going by the OD&D Bell art currently being discussed on G+). You could probably get rid of 2-3 of those without making any difference to play.
I've never seen the French translation (although I think I've seen some artwork posted online) - are there any particular features you're thinking of? Other than getting rid of halflings!
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Post by aldarron on Feb 23, 2013 6:16:11 GMT -6
A few more wishes having just read Maze of Peril: *Iron prevents spells when contact with the caster, draining the energy, p34. *Elves require spellbooks, just like MU's, p34. *Using a crystal ball is fatiguing (like combat?)and apparently may be only be used once per day per level, p79. *Elves are attuned to nature, being able to sense/feel the rising and setting of the moon even uderground, p112. *Temporary spell effects cease immediately upon the death of the caster, p129
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Post by Vile Traveller on Feb 23, 2013 7:23:20 GMT -6
Thanks, aldarron! I'm currently compiling additional monsters (some of these are already in Prentice). I still need to go through MoP again, and I have only started on FRPG, so this is not complete. Any other sources you can point me to will be investigated! Are there any other monsters in the Monster and Treasure Assortments from the early boxed sets? Holmes Blue Book- Ape (1st edition alignment chart, sample dungeon)
- Assassin (additional character classes)
- Bat, Huge (vampire description)
- Bear (giant description)
- Brigand (dungeon mastering as a fine art)
- Centaur (additional character classes)
- Crab, Giant (sample dungeon)
- Cyclopia (british edition image)
- Demon (1st edition alignment chart)
- Dragon , Blue (1st edition alignment chart)
- Druid (additional character classes)
- Elemental (Protection from Evil spell description)
- Fairy (pixie description)
- Fish, Large (pixie entry)
- Half Elf (additional character classes)
- Illusionist (additional character classes)
- Lizard, Giant (1st edition wandering monster)
- Lammasu (1st edition alignment chart)
- Leprechaun (1st edition wandering monster)
- Monk (additional character classes)
- Octopus, Large (sample dungeon)
- Paladin (additional character classes)
- Piercer (1st edition wandering monster)
- Ranger (additional character classes)
- Rat (vampire description)
- Scorpion, Giant (poisoned weapons)
- Sarcophagus Skeleton (sample dungeon)
- Snake, Giant (sample dungeon)
- Spider, Enormous (sample dungeon)
- Toad, Giant (1st edition wandering monster)
- Weasel, Giant (1st edition wandering monster)
- Wereleopard (lycanthrope description)
- Wereshark (lycanthrope description)
- Wolf (giant & vampire description)
Dragon #12 Cthuloid Monsters- Byakhee
- Great Race
- Deep Ones
- Mi-Go
- Shaggoth
Dragon #31 TrollsheadDragon #46 The Sorcerer’s StoneDragon #52 Holmes Basic D&D vs. Moldvay BasicDragon #58 In the BagConfessions of a Dungeon MasterFantasy Role Playing Games- Enchanted Statue
- Flower Stalks
- Gila Monster, Giant
- Tentacled Maw
The Maze of Peril- Crab, Giant
- Frog Men
- Golem, Flesh
- Golem, Stone
- Wereshark
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Post by llenlleawg on Feb 23, 2013 9:11:14 GMT -6
I agree with you in principle, zeraser, and the 2nd and 3rd editions of Blueholme will certainly follow that route. However, this 1st edition is, above all, an attempt to create a simulacrum as close as possible to the original Holmes edition - including the anachronistic terminology. While it is certainly true that "fighting man/men" is Holmes' preferred term, it is not his only term. The term "fighting man/men" occurs 34 times (35, if you count the reference sheet at the end). However, the term fighter, although used only half as often (17 times), is not altogether infrequent. Indeed, you find that Holmes slides just as easily from one to another, even on the very same page. The best example is p. 39, with the example of play. The first two times, it is "fighting man", then twice "fighter", then "fighting man", and continuing on p. 40, it switches back to "fighter". As regards non-humans, I don't see Holmes justifying the phrase "dwarf fighting man", but rather "dwarf fighter". You can say that all dwarves advance as fighting men, but I don't think "dwarf fighting man" or "elf fighting man" or whatever is ever used, or for that matter especially Holmesian. My two cents, anyway.
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Post by aldarron on Feb 23, 2013 20:22:04 GMT -6
Some quick thoughts: Giant Lizards are mentioned in Greyhawk, and are found in Supplement II ToTF dungeon on page 43 with more detail. This summarizes the info and you may freely use it. Giant Lizard. Number appearing 1-12 (1-4 out of lair), AC 7, HD 1, Mv 9", #At 1 claw or 1 bite, Damage 2-8. Giant lizards are subterranean creatures, preferring dark and damp conditions for their nesting area from which they typically do not stray far, except when hunting food or water. They are carnivorous scavengers feeding on rats, dead killer frogs, and the like. Druids are also mentioned as monsters in Greyhawk, discussed here odd74.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=print&thread=4813The Giant Fish in the Nixie description is elswhere (Beyond This Point be Dragons) said to actually be a Giant Pike. Don't forget the original Holmes monsters from the Dungeon of Arzaz - Flower Stalks
- Enchanted Statue
- Tentacled Maw
- Giant Gila Monster (sample map)
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Post by Vile Traveller on Feb 23, 2013 23:32:59 GMT -6
Thanks again, aldarron. I think I may have to add giant lizards as a separate monster to that used by the lizard men, because it looks a bit too small. I think I'll have a giant lizard similar to that, while the lizard men use adifferent type. I wonder what the model was for the one in the foreword artwork? It doesn't look like it but I want to use giant komodo dragons. Normal komodo dragons are scary enough, but giant ones ... The Arzaz creatures will all be in Compleat in some form, I'm taking notes as I read through FRPG. Wish I'd done the same when I read MoP, but I was too excited and devoured it in one sitting.
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Post by Zenopus on Feb 24, 2013 14:16:37 GMT -6
I wonder what the model was for the one in the foreword artwork? Good question! There's possibly a Dewback connection due to the timing, but the DCS lizard has spikes down its back not found on the DB. The armored lizardman is reminiscent of the Shen from EPT, which DCS had earlier illustrated, but they are not noted for riding giant lizards, and I don't see any giant lizards in EPT. So, some notable features of the DCS lizard are: spikes on nose, head and down its spine, a dewlap, and spots. Some possible real world models with spiky spines might be: Mountain Horned Lizard - popular pet, dewlap and spikes down back but not on head. Tuatara - spikes on head but not nose, gap before spine spikes where rider could sit. Giant Tuataras are found in B/X. Marine Iguana - has a fairly spiky head, including nose, spine spikes are much longer but also have gap.
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