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Post by Vile Traveller on Oct 7, 2012 22:40:28 GMT -6
Oh yeah, both of those are in there!
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Post by blackbarn on Oct 10, 2012 11:43:13 GMT -6
Thanks - the arted-up version will look even better, I can tell you. I'm glad I got talked into doing it, Ford really hits the right note for Holmes. But you must have found something wrong with it, right? Speak up if you have! It'll be trickier to change things once all the art is in. Mind you I'm still awaiting Zenopus's input once he has time (no pressure!), so I'm not graving the layout in stone just yet. I like the cover! Ok, I will pick nits. This is probably more in the realm of personal preference, but I feel the fonts used don't convey a Holmes feel, plus, at the size of the book, they are going to be small and perhaps difficult to read in print copies. I have some OD&D books at that size which use a Times font and it seems trickier to read than the original Arial (or whatever it is) style from the real books. Maybe those guys knew what they were doing choosing the simple typeface they did for a digest-sized rulebook (as opposed to a novel or whatever.) Something to consider, at least. Looking forward to see the finished work, regardless.
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Post by Vile Traveller on Oct 10, 2012 21:04:18 GMT -6
That's an interesting point. The consensus is generally that serif fonts are easier to read in print than sans-serif. Although the header typefaces are chosen for their looks, I'm not a canonista in terms of text typeface (actually, not in terms of anything). The main purpose is to be clear and legible.* I'll have to try some variations and print them out full-size to see what works best.
* That just reminded me of one of my favurite Frank Mentzer quotes (I think it was he?), saying that these days he just goes for simplicity and clarity in fonts.
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Post by blackbarn on Oct 14, 2012 21:37:07 GMT -6
That's an interesting point. The consensus is generally that serif fonts are easier to read in print than sans-serif. Yeah, and in most cases I agree. Just something I've noticed going through my digest-sized RPG books, specifically D&D. As a reference book that is not read the same way as novels or other normal books, I really appreciate the simpler fonts used in the original D&D and Holmes. *shrug* It is by no means a deal-breaker though!
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Post by jmccann on Oct 14, 2012 21:51:17 GMT -6
The consensus is generally that serif fonts are easier to read in print than sans-serif. One interesting point to consider might be that Greyhawk and the other supplements were typographically much more sophisticated than the LBBs, using italics, bold and so on and not using underlines. They used a serif font for the text.
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Post by jmccann on Oct 14, 2012 21:52:51 GMT -6
You might consider using Souvenir or one of its clones - it is a serif font but was a popular font around the time of the publication of Holmes.
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Post by machfront on Oct 15, 2012 0:23:49 GMT -6
Not a big deal for me either, but when I see Souvenir (as much as I dig it), I can't help but think and 'feel' B/X (and the Corgi version of 5th ed. T&T). When I think Holmes I of course think Futura (or...whatever it was). I don't recall ever thinking that one font or another was more or less difficult to read...ever. Except in regards to size. (My anger over the tiny font in the 1E DMG burns in me with the fury of a thousand suns.)
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Post by Vile Traveller on Oct 15, 2012 0:54:52 GMT -6
I'm avoiding Souvenir in the text for that reason, although I am using it for some headers. I'm fairly happy with the serif font I've chosen, I'll print the master file and a control copy in a sans-serif font this week to see how the text and the art look in dead tree. There's still time to change if need be.
That said, the master is ready for action from this end, but I'll leave it until I have an introductory dungeon module to hand. That should give everyone who is still going through it time to make their final comments. All the feedback has been great so far, although a couple of in-play reports would be superb.
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Post by jmccann on Oct 15, 2012 16:42:37 GMT -6
I never really paid much attention to the later B/X stuff so I didn't realize they used Souvenir, but I agree that is a reason to avoid it. Times, Palatino or really any common font which dates back that far would be good for text. Futura or Avant Gard for headings would be good I think.
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Post by Mike on Oct 16, 2012 1:51:17 GMT -6
What I've seen so far is excellent. Thanks heaps!
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Post by Vile Traveller on Oct 16, 2012 6:47:54 GMT -6
Thanks, hogscape. Palatino, that's the fellow I'm using. Still haven't had a chance to do the print test, though.
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Post by verhaden on Oct 16, 2012 9:08:11 GMT -6
You're on the right track. Were you to use a sans-serif typeface, I'd recommend Univers (used in later LBB printings) over Arial (Helvetica knockoff) or Futura (as seen in 1st edition AD&D). If you're looking to break out of default MS Word typefaces, though, consider some free alternatives: www.theleagueofmoveabletype.com/sorts-mill-goudy(But stick with what you like and what works for you. Looks good to me.)
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Post by jmccann on Oct 16, 2012 21:52:51 GMT -6
You're on the right track. Were you to use a sans-serif typeface, I'd recommend Univers (used in later LBB printings) over Arial (Helvetica knockoff) or Futura (as seen in 1st edition AD&D). If you're looking to break out of default MS Word typefaces, though, consider some free alternatives: www.theleagueofmoveabletype.com/sorts-mill-goudy(But stick with what you like and what works for you. Looks good to me.) Yeah, Univers is a good one. Avoid Arial or any of the windows crap fonts on principle. But don't be dissin' Futura! ;D
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Post by verhaden on Oct 17, 2012 6:43:51 GMT -6
I love Futura, but only at large print sizes
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Post by machfront on Oct 26, 2012 3:53:15 GMT -6
I may have missed this elsewhere, but are you creating something that will essentially be Holmes + Meepo's Holmes Companion (since his expansion was OD&D-guided)?...Because that would be awesome. I guess I'm curious how 'far' you're planning on taking this, seeing as how you don't wish to go down the road of B/X-like expansions, etc. Also...get back to work!
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Post by Vile Traveller on Oct 26, 2012 7:55:10 GMT -6
The first step is a 1st-3rd level Holmes Basic emulator (the Prentice Rules) plus a separate dungeon design primer and introductory module. I'm working on the latter now, converting xerxes's kindly-donated Maze of Nuromen. I think they should be out in time for Christmas.
The plan is to then do a full-on 1st-14th level version (the compleat rules), OD&D-guided. I'm not using Meepo's (or anyone else's) rules, as I'm sticking to the original references. I would dearly love to get my hands on Holmes's other books like Maze of Peril for additional insight, but I haven't had any luck so far.
However, before I can do the Compleat Rules, after I finish the Prentice Rules and The Maze of Nuromen I have to give some attention to some other projects which have been languishing for, erm ... AEONS.
But, hey, 1st to 3rd level play should keep you busy for a few months!
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Post by blackbarn on Oct 26, 2012 11:53:57 GMT -6
Maze of Peril is still for sale at cover price. (scroll down) www.cith.org/s&t_books.htmlAlso, Holmes wrote some stories for Dragon magazine that feel a lot like the Holmes Basic rules "world." I'm sure someone here could hook you up...
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Post by Vile Traveller on Oct 26, 2012 20:14:50 GMT -6
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Post by Zenopus on Oct 26, 2012 20:31:21 GMT -6
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Post by Vile Traveller on Oct 27, 2012 0:06:26 GMT -6
Thanks for the heads-up, Zenopus. I've taken the plunge and ordered MoP as well as a 3rd edition rulebook.
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Post by Finarvyn on Oct 27, 2012 8:52:03 GMT -6
Holmes wrote some stories for Dragon magazine that feel a lot like the Holmes Basic rules "world." I'm sure someone here could hook you up... This got me curious, so I looked up the fiction that Holmes wrote for Dragon: "In the Bag" issue 58 (page 37) "The Sorcerer's Jewel" issue 46 (page 6) Excerpt from "Trollshead" issue 31 (page 3) I can't say that I recall any of these. Someone want to give a review?
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Post by Vile Traveller on Oct 27, 2012 10:30:56 GMT -6
Well, now, "Trollshead" is your basic hostage situation: Our heroes Boinger the halfling and Zereth the "black" elf (what's a black elf outside Glorantha?) must save the princess from the bandits without actually handing over the ransom. In terms of rules indicators, there are a few things worth considering for BLUEHOLME Compleat. There are half-orcs and half-elves, and black elves. Trolls are dumb but not that dumb, and they can use weapons (well, this one can, anyway). You can disbelieve illusions.
I read it from a rules viewpoint, although it was also quite a fun story in its own right. The "PCs" are certainly a very amoral bunch in a tight spot, although they do show some integrity. Can't really say much more than that without spoilers.
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Post by Vile Traveller on Nov 2, 2012 19:44:27 GMT -6
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Post by Vile Traveller on Nov 22, 2012 6:45:39 GMT -6
Thanks for the heads-up, Zenopus. I've taken the plunge and ordered MoP as well as a 3rd edition rulebook. ... aaand they're here! Mazes of Peril seems to be brand new, the 3rd edition Blue Book is in excellent condition and it even has the chit sheet still in place (although the coupon for the real dice is gone). I can't wait to get Blueholme Prentice Rules out of the door so I can start on Blueholme Compleat, with all the references gleaned from MoP and the Dragon short stories! ;D
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Post by blackbarn on Dec 10, 2012 23:02:42 GMT -6
Thanks for the heads-up, Zenopus. I've taken the plunge and ordered MoP as well as a 3rd edition rulebook. ... aaand they're here! Mazes of Peril seems to be brand new, the 3rd edition Blue Book is in excellent condition and it even has the chit sheet still in place (although the coupon for the real dice is gone). I can't wait to get Blueholme Prentice Rules out of the door so I can start on Blueholme Compleat, with all the references gleaned from MoP and the Dragon short stories! ;D Sounds really cool, and I'm looking forward to seeing what you do with that. And that reminds me, I have to get off my butt and order MoP someday before they are gone...
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