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Post by Mike on Feb 5, 2013 8:00:22 GMT -6
Hi Vile,
I'm using Adobe at work and Preview at home. It looked great before the latest changes (print and on screen).
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tog
Level 4 Theurgist
Detect Meal & What Kind
Posts: 148
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Post by tog on Feb 23, 2013 20:32:44 GMT -6
Was the bit on MUs being able to use scrolls to re-memorize spells yours? 'Cause that's something I never thought of, and it's all kindsa cool. Consider it stolen.
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Post by Vile Traveller on Feb 23, 2013 23:22:02 GMT -6
Was the bit on MUs being able to use scrolls to re-memorize spells yours? 'Cause that's something I never thought of, and it's all kindsa cool. Consider it stolen. I believe something similar was discussed on a forum (perhaps even this one), so I can't claim to have pulled this one entirely out of my own hat. There are not many changes from Holmes RAW, but this is one of them. The reason I put it in, after much agonising, is one of Eric Holmes's comments on the new Moldvay edition. I didn't want to get rid of the cumbersome magic books entirely, so this is the compromise. It's an optional rule, so it can be ignored if people wish.
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Post by blackbarn on Feb 24, 2013 8:21:09 GMT -6
I've weighed in on font preference before, but at this point I'd be happy with any type, so long as it looks good and is your intended font, not a default replacement font. I'd rather use a printed copy than an electronic one, if I'm going to use this in play, for what it's worth.
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Post by Vile Traveller on Feb 24, 2013 8:54:02 GMT -6
I've taken a leaf out of Frank Menzter's book decided to go with practicality and inoffensiveness on the font front. Although although Frank says he goes for Times New Roman these days, I've opted for Arial. Easy to read in print and on screen and not likely to be messed up by any PDF readers.
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Post by Zenopus on Feb 24, 2013 9:02:57 GMT -6
Was the bit on MUs being able to use scrolls to re-memorize spells yours? 'Cause that's something I never thought of, and it's all kindsa cool. Consider it stolen. I believe something similar was discussed on a forum (perhaps even this one), so I can't claim to have pulled this one entirely out of my own hat. There are not many changes from Holmes RAW, but this is one of them. The reason I put it in, after much agonising, is one of Eric Holmes's comments on the new Moldvay edition. I didn't want to get rid of the cumbersome magic books entirely, so this is the compromise. It's an optional rule, so it can be ignored if people wish. Here's the forum thread from last year: Magic Books in HolmesAnd a follow-up blog post, which I didn't post here: The Scroll SpellbookAlso, see this older Dragonsfoot thread: Spellbooks in a Holmes dungeonDeathsdj mentions his rules for memorizing from scrolls, which include using up the scroll. Also, the idea goes back to the Unearthed Arcana traveling spell book, where the primary function is memorization, but you can also cast spells directly from the pages, like a scroll, though with a chance of erasing other pages or the entire book.
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Post by Vile Traveller on Feb 24, 2013 21:03:38 GMT -6
Man, Zenopus, I wish I had a memory like yours!
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Post by Vile Traveller on Mar 17, 2013 1:23:03 GMT -6
In other news, downloads of the Prentice Rules and Maze of Nuromen are now over 1,250 each.
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Post by scottenkainen on Jul 2, 2013 14:08:56 GMT -6
I wrote a review for the Prentice Rules that I plan on posting to DriveThruRPG. They're kind of long. I thought I'd share them here first and allow you to answer some critiques.
This book is a retroclone – one of many out there – this one of the true second edition of Dungeons & Dragons, edited by Eric Holmes in 1977.
Part 1 is a very introductory introduction, more than the Holmes edition was and more, I feel, like the 1981 Moldvay ed., especially in terms of spelling out all the different uses of the word “level” in D&D.
Part 2, though, is an excellently organized approach to character creation and the simplified tables are an improvement on the original version. While the rules do not deviate from Holmes ed. D&D, there are clarifications on almost every page, like how dwarven perception works or which weapons are “legal” for the cleric class. Information is grouped together better, like how scroll creation rules are now right there in the description of the Magic-User class. Elven multi-classing is explained better and now we finally have a graph that can represent a five-point Alignment system.
Curiously, for a retroclone that otherwise adheres so closely to the original rulebook, the 2nd level Magic-User spell list includes several new spells. Given the increased importance of Dexterity in Holmes ed., the creation of a Dexterity spell makes sense, but the Ray of Clumsiness spell doesn’t make much sense. Why is “clumsiness” associated with Strength and not Dexterity? And where else in the rules is Strength even associated with weapon damage?
The combat section attempts to add some new rules with mixed results. The explanation for hitting with flaming oil is an example of a good addition. A confusing addition is separating weapons by light, normal, and heavy, which seems to have no game mechanic purpose. Other things are more clarification, like exactly how “infra-vision” works.
The section on how combat works is nicely written. I particularly like Strangelove the Cleric.
The monster section is very deadly for 1st-3rd level characters, with monsters like the purple worm and the vampire included for completeness’ sake rather than any likelihood of being encountered (under all but the meanest DMs!). The carrion crawler and shrieker are revived here under new names (I doubt I would ever get used to calling a carrion crawler a “grick”).
I like the separation of individual treasure and treasure hordes into different tables. It is very close to the old treasure types. The absence of treasure types in the Open Game License has been a problem for retroclones before and I would much rather use this system than Swords & Wizardry’s bulkier treasure system.
The magic items section conceals barely any new items, the best being the Staff of Clouting which I actually prefer to the old Staff of Striking.
Spelling has been uniformly switched to British English, a distinction D&D has always had a problem with consistency on.
The sample character sheet looks a bit top heavy, with a silly amount of space reserved for ability score modifiers (in a game with very few) and very small space for writing in equipment down below.
The art is good quality public domain art, but really, if given a choice, I’ll take a D&D book with Trampier and Wham art instead any day.
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Post by Vile Traveller on Jul 3, 2013 6:16:23 GMT -6
Hi scottenkainen, thanks for taking the time to write and post this review, and giving me a chance to respond here. Curiously, for a retroclone that otherwise adheres so closely to the original rulebook, the 2nd level Magic-User spell list includes several new spells. Given the increased importance of Dexterity in Holmes ed., the creation of a Dexterity spell makes sense, but the Ray of Clumsiness spell doesn’t make much sense. Why is “clumsiness” associated with Strength and not Dexterity? And where else in the rules is Strength even associated with weapon damage? Mostly these are just cases of renaming the spells, because the D20 SRD uses different names in many cases. As for the Ray of Clumsiness, well spotted - that should have been a reduction in Dexterity. Like the spell Dexterity, I changed this from the original Holmes because, as you say, Strength really has no short-term effect in Holmes. I'll have to amend this in the second printing. In fact, I just did. A confusing addition is separating weapons by light, normal, and heavy, which seems to have no game mechanic purpose. This is taken from Holmes, although I left out the broken rule about weapon speed. This will be re-introduced in modified form as an optional rule in the Compleat Rules. The carrion crawler and shrieker are revived here under new names (I doubt I would ever get used to calling a carrion crawler a “grick”). The grick is actually a remarkably similar monster adapted from the D20 SRD. The Otyugh is there to replace the displacer beast. All because of trademarking of the original monsters, of course. The sample character sheet looks a bit top heavy, with a silly amount of space reserved for ability score modifiers (in a game with very few) and very small space for writing in equipment down below. A valid point, which will be addressed when the Compleat Rules are done. The art is good quality public domain art, but really, if given a choice, I’ll take a D&D book with Trampier and Wham art instead any day. You and me both. And everyone else. I particularly like Strangelove the Cleric. I'm glad you do - that's her on the mock cover of the Compleat Rules.
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Post by scottenkainen on Jul 23, 2013 22:03:53 GMT -6
I've finally got around to writing a review of The Maze of Nuromen and, again, wanted to share it first here for feedback before posting it to DriveThruRPG.
The Maze of Nuromen is a short, introductory adventure module for use with the BLUEHOLME Prentice Rules. Just as the BLUEHOLME rules are a retroclone of the Holmes edition of D&D, “The Maze of Nuromen” is meant to evoke the sample dungeon from the Holmes edition, without being a direct copy of it. In this the module succeeds greatly. The map of level 1 of this dungeon is reminiscent of the layout of the sample dungeon. The background to both are similar, as is the geography above the dungeons.
Like any good sample dungeon, there is a good variety of combats, tricks, hidden treasures, and things to do. There’s a stolen item to retrieve, a useful password to look for, and even a riddle to answer. For an Old School module, there seems to be a dearth of traps here. There’s also very little opportunity here for role-playing. We know what the elves are up to, but the bandits and goblins have no reason for being here, nothing to learn from talking to them.
Many of the old D&D basic modules for levels 1-3 assumed you were starting with a party of 1st level characters and would level up 1-2 times in the course of play. This adventure is probably too dangerous for that and I would recommend the party begin with at least one 3rd level character.
The artwork is too grisly and unpleasant for my liking. Others may find that very appropriate for the sort of games they run.
My last minor complaint is that I feel an opportunity was missed here. If there are hints in the text as to how to combine the Holmes sample dungeon level into this dungeon to make a deluxe, 3-level dungeon, I’ve sadly missed them.
All minor complaints aside, it IS a pretty solid adventure, very Old School, highlighting its simplified style with one-line stats for almost every encounter. With 25 rooms on 2 levels, there is plenty enough here to do for multiple game sessions.
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Post by Vile Traveller on Jul 24, 2013 7:48:07 GMT -6
Thanks, scottenkainen, that's a pretty accurate review. Of course, it's xerxes's dungeon and I mainly modified the map and changed a few monsters and magic items to bring it into line with the BLUEHOLME™ rules. You're right, it is dangerous, but part of that is down to the assumption that there will be henchmen and hirelings along. Also, depending on your Charisma and luck with reaction rolls, some of the other denizens could make useful allies (although that might create problems with the "patrons" later ...).
It was never intended to mesh with the sample dungeon, and it wouldn't have been possible to say so under the OGL even if it was. The idea behind all the hints at the wider world, the possible plot hooks and the open ends is that it can go in pretty much any direction the referee wants to take it.
Yes, the art - grisly is right, and for a reason ... Nuromen was not a pleasant character (though not completely without redeeming features), and his Maze is not a nice place to be ...
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Sept 14, 2013 0:03:35 GMT -6
Wow. I stumbled upon BLUEHOLME accidentally while delving through OSR stuff randomly. My first taste of the RPG experience was the blue cover box set when I was 12 years old, in 1978. I grabbed the Prentice PDF and was to say the least very happy. I've been playing AD&D/OSRIC and a few other things but this is the game I've really been itching to play again for, oh say 30 years or so, no big deal. I just want to say THANKS. I use PDFs every day but I can't wait to get printed copies of both Prentice and Compleat.
This is the version of the game that I want to use to introduce new players. There's a special magic in it. I'm excited that this exists. The game that I still truly love after all this time is back.
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Post by Vile Traveller on Sept 14, 2013 21:51:25 GMT -6
Thanks for the kind words, blindelf. That is exactly the sort of thing that gets me off these forums and back onto the Compleat manuscript ... Working my way through the Treasure chapter now, by the way. That means there is a Referee chapter to go, and then it's editing time. Oh, and artwork funding time. Anyone know how to make one of those Indiegogo videos?
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Post by Vile Traveller on Mar 30, 2016 7:55:23 GMT -6
In other news, I just noticed that one of the Wikipedia editors removed the BLUEHOLME™ entry (no sources), so I spent a moment to put it back, this time with references. Don't you just love Wikipedia (and, specifically, people with too much time on their hands)? Ironically, I had to take out one link because Wikipedia blacklists Lulu. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dungeons_%26_Dragons_retro-clones#BLUEHOLME.E2.84.A2
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Post by Vile Traveller on Sept 30, 2017 6:07:02 GMT -6
The BLUEHOLME™ Journeymanne Rules are done! It's been a long journey (pun fully intended), with a few downs and a lot of ups along the way. And this, the OD&D Discussion Forums, is really where the BLUEHOLME™ project was born and nurtured. Thanks to Zenopus, Chris Holmes, xerxez, a lot of you other posters - and of course our gracious host Finarvyn - I had the stamina to see it through to this day. I just wanted to say "Thanks" to you all. Of course, this is the beginning of phase 2. I still have a bunch of stretch goal rewards to parcel out over the next couple of months, before going PoD with the main book itself. And then, next year, I will finally finish off that Forbidden Mazes of the Jennerak triology, followed by some other adventures by the good master Thorkhammer. dreamscapedesign.net/2017/09/30/the-journey-has-ended/
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Post by hamurai on Sept 30, 2017 9:28:12 GMT -6
Great job, the PDF looks really good! Will there be a print/POD version?
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Post by distortedhumor on Sept 30, 2017 9:40:15 GMT -6
Congrats Vile TravellerAs a silly question, how does Blueholme (and Holmes) separat itself from B/X?
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Post by Vile Traveller on Sept 30, 2017 11:19:26 GMT -6
Great job, the PDF looks really good! Will there be a print/POD version? Yes, end of the year. Time for PDF buyers to spot typos (I know there must be some). As a silly question, how does Blueholme (and Holmes) separat itself from B/X? Not a silly question at all - but one I'll have to answer tomorrow, it's been a crazy day here at Dreamscape Design Mansions! Unless Zenopus gets in there first.
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Post by roaktheunknowable on Sept 30, 2017 15:31:20 GMT -6
Congrats Vile! It is a great system and I thank you for all your hard work. Blessings
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Post by Vile Traveller on Sept 30, 2017 22:22:26 GMT -6
As a silly question, how does BLUEHOLME™ (and Holmes) separate itself from B/X? Okay, I have some time now! I'll talk about the differences between Holmes and Moldvay first (as the only "X" for Holmes was Cook & Marsh, using the explanatory page at the front of that book). There amy be more, but I'm streaming conciousness here ... - Holmes is technically not race-as-class - although dwarves and halflings are only give fighter as a class option, and elves fighters and magic-users, the latter using the somewhat ambiguous approach from OD&D.
- Ability scores don't matter as much in Holmes as they do in Moldvay. Holmes uses the OD&D bonuses, which are small at best.
- Characters move twice as fast as monsters in Holmes! This is where error was creeping into the translation, because there were supposed to be 2 movement phases per turn. That's why B/X onwards, and AD&D, had such slow movement rates (although it did help to keep tabletop figure play actually on the table). Moldvay halved character movement, too, so everyone was slow.
- Magic has many differences. Holmes magic books can't be taken on adventures, Clerics are implied to have magic books (if you use your imagination), magic-users can write scrolls for any spells they know right from level 1, magic-users could start out with a lot more spells in their magic book than their casting limit. No save against sleep spells, but the poor caster has to roll to hit with magic missile.
- There is no variable weapon damage in Holmes. All weapons do 1d6, and - as 1st-3rd level characters use the same to-hit chart, all classes are equal in offensive combat. There is the infamous Holmes dagger rule, whereby light weapons can attack twice per round - as written (and edited) this is broken, because munchkins would all run around with daggers in hand.
- The Holmes monster list is a lot more wide-ranging - there are giants, and even purple worms! The monster list could really be used as a basis for a campaign as-is, without adding more at higher levels. I personally don't like to use many different species in my games, I prefer to give those I use some depth.
- The famous Holmes sample dungeon is playable as-is, and has stood the test of time, unlike the partial sample in Moldvay which not many people ever bothered except as an example, with from what I can tell.
BLUEHOLME™ obviously extrapolates to make the game playable over 20 levels, but the idea is not to lean too heavily on OD&D for those expansions. Instead, I have used Holmes's writings and accounts of his games to expand upon Holmes Basic (and the BLUEHOLME™ Prentice Rules). Thus, the monster list includes things mentioned in Holmes, as well as his short stories. I applied the same crazy approach to magic items, in that the chances for each sub-type are relatively equal - you're as likely to roll a -1 cursed sword as a +2 Nine Lives Stealer. I did not add in anything from B/X, AD&D, or OD&D for higher levels, though I based spells on OD&D and AD&D in some cases. The intent behind BLUEHOLME™ is to make Holmes playable as a stand-alone game, without re-creating OD&D + supplements. By the way, my love for Holmes in no way denigrates B/X - in fact, I hold Molvay as the epitome of RPG writing in terms of clarity, succinctness, and playability. BLUEHOLME™ uses the same principles in its organisation. I came to RPGs through Moldvay back in '83, and it will always hold a special place in my heart for that reason alone.
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Post by distortedhumor on Oct 1, 2017 11:00:37 GMT -6
Thanks for the clear description - as a quick question, does blueholme fix the dagger issue, or shall I have get daggers house rules ready.
And I plan to pick up Blueholme when I get paid and get some spending cash.
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Post by Vile Traveller on Oct 1, 2017 20:43:56 GMT -6
BTB BLUEHOLME™ does what most referees did, i.e. drop the dagger rule. But, to preserve the spirit (of what is really a "weapon weight" rule) there is an option whereby light, medium, heavy, and extra-heavy weapons* have different weapon speeds, which are offset by different damage rolls: Light | 2 attacks per round | Worst of 2d6 | Medium | 1 attack per round | 1d6 | Heavy | 1 attack every 2 rounds | Best of 2d6 | Extra-Heavy | 1 attack every 3 rounds | Best of 3d6 |
*There is only one extra-heavy weapon, the heavy crossbow.
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Post by roaktheunknowable on Oct 3, 2017 17:30:20 GMT -6
I have added this to my game of Blueholme but it is PBP online so we have not had any combat since changing this. Yet, as a DM, here is hoping that changes soon! I like what you did with this Vile. Very much in fact. It improves the old rule but keeps the flavor of it. I am allowing a free parry (-2 to AC) with those using Heavy weapons per Zenopus' recommendations. Blessings
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Post by Scott Anderson on Oct 3, 2017 18:11:57 GMT -6
Did you borrow an attack matrix or give a base attack bonus progression? Or what?
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Post by Vile Traveller on Oct 3, 2017 22:47:26 GMT -6
Did you borrow an attack matrix or give a base attack bonus progression? Or what? The game uses an attack matrix. And there's a space for it on the character records. www.drivethrurpg.com/m/product/218957
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Post by Vile Traveller on Nov 29, 2017 20:45:35 GMT -6
The Proof is in the Pudding! Now only a big red marker stands between backers and their hard copies of the BLUEHOLME™ Journeymanne Rules (and the updated Prentice Rules). Last chance to let me know if you spot any typos.
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Post by roaktheunknowable on Dec 2, 2017 11:01:22 GMT -6
Congrats Vile! You have worked hard and succeeded in creating a great game that is fun to play and true to Holmes in my opinion. Keep up the good work! As alwaus, I look forward to all that goes with the game in the future. Blessings
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arkansan
Level 5 Thaumaturgist
Posts: 229
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Post by arkansan on Dec 6, 2017 23:48:27 GMT -6
Haven't really been following this project, but reading over this thread I feel that's a grave oversight on my part. Looks I've got some new reading for the week! If you have the Journeyman rules are the Prentice rules required?
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Post by Vile Traveller on Dec 7, 2017 4:51:06 GMT -6
If you have the Journeyman rules are the Prentice rules required? Nope.
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