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Post by geoffrey on Apr 23, 2008 21:27:40 GMT -6
In my imagination, all undead without exception are former humans. I do not like non-human undead of any sort:
gnome mummies
halfling vampires
dwarven wights
draconic liches
flumph spectres
etc.
Non-human undead do not strike me as fantastic, but rather as silly. They "break the spell" for me.
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Post by foster1941 on Apr 23, 2008 21:58:26 GMT -6
I like giant skeletons and zombies, I like banshees as the spirits of dead female elves, I like that drow vampire in D3, I like the skeletal dragon illustration in S2 (and in one of the Endless Quest books), and I love the ghoul-monkeys (inspired by the Sumatran rat-monkey from Peter Jackson's Dead-Alive) that we included in Monsters of Myth. I do agree, though, that undead demi-humans, especially undead gnomes and hobbits, are pretty lame.
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Post by Melan on Apr 24, 2008 3:28:27 GMT -6
No, not really -- some variations on undead (the Deceived of Set, one of the best new monsters I have seen since the Bone Sucker in Necro's Tome of Horrors) or semi-humans in undead existence (the monstrous ghouls of legend, or the mummified ape-men corpses in The Garden of al-Astorion) are all right, but I couldn't take a dwarf or gnome vampire seriously. I suspect this is partially why I thought Rob Kuntz's otherwise good Tower of Blood felt like a 2nd edition module - it took D&D monsters into niches where they didn't look "right".
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Post by Melan on Apr 24, 2008 3:30:39 GMT -6
Point two, skeletal, zombie-like or mummified undead are easier to sell than sentient ones. Maybe wights, spectres, vampires, etc. have a stronger "cultural" attachment to them, so we find them jarring?
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jjarvis
Level 5 Thaumaturgist
Posts: 278
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Post by jjarvis on Apr 24, 2008 4:33:12 GMT -6
I really think the non-humans should get their own undead monsters. It would really be rp differences (one could easily use traditional undead stats).
hungry soul- halfling undead, it eats and eats and eats and keeps growing as it does so. treat as a mummy.
knockers- undead dwarves that lead miners and travelrs below astray. When they isolate folks they corner and devour them. treat as ghouls.
grey troll- actually a gnome with comically over grown hair and beards, comical indeed until one finds out they are as deadly as a wight.
white lady- a beautiful woman, who enchants males (elfin and non elfin) into an embrace that drains their life-force from them. (vampires without all the associated powers, keep charm and the level draining). Let them walki in sunlight too but the will not openly enter combat.
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Stonegiant
Level 5 Thaumaturgist
100% in Liar
Posts: 240
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Post by Stonegiant on Apr 24, 2008 7:19:58 GMT -6
JJarvis beat me to it but I was going to say that that non-humans needed undead tailored to them. It was in the Dragon Magazine articles, The Point of View Series by Roger E. Moore detailed undead for dwarves called Tappers, they haunted mines and caverns and would lead the unsuspecting away to their doom. Another source of inspiration for non-human undead would be the swamp of the dead in Tolkien. I do agree however that non-human versions of many of the standard undead (vampires, mummies, etc.) don't work. I can however see ghosts of all species, as well as zombies and skeletons. Sentient undead however would have to be tailored to the species. Imagine say a dwarven type of undead that must have a constructed body, enter stage right one of the ultimate dwarven undead either a possessed Stone or Iron golem (sort of a dwarven version of a Lich).
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Post by redpriest on Apr 24, 2008 8:18:14 GMT -6
With the exception of skeletons and zombies (as melan pointed out), non-human undead should be special case monsters. It should be jarring to the players in a "holy smokes, we didn't expect that and we could be toast!" way, rather than in the laughable halfling vampire kinda way. Used very sparingly, I think non-human undead could be effective and fun for everyone.
Sure, a halfling vampire could be just as deadly as a human turned vampire, but who would enjoy that punk move by a ref?
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Post by makofan on Apr 25, 2008 7:51:53 GMT -6
It's all good to me
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Post by grodog on Apr 25, 2008 9:03:34 GMT -6
I don't mind non-human undead---we have banshees and Belgos the drowic vampire in D3 as strong examples for EGG's intent that non-human undead should exist---but in general I do prefer undead to be human in origin. In particular, the longer-lived intelligent "I choose undeath" undead (liches, shades to a lesser degree) vs. the cursed undead (ghosts, banshees, victims that rise as undead later [vampires, ghouls, ghasts, etc.]): I just don't see the longer-lived races as being as likely as the short-lived humans to trade off undeath for a few more centuries of life.
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Post by ffilz on Apr 25, 2008 10:02:39 GMT -6
I voted yes, but I like human undead more. As others have mentioned, I like the idea of the occasional non-human based undead to add some spice. I non-human skeleton, zombie, or mummy are very definite possibilities.
Frank
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Post by James Maliszewski on Apr 25, 2008 10:42:08 GMT -6
I use them from time to time and don't have anything against non-human undead in principle. It's more that my games tend to be very human dominated, so it's rare that I ever have my players encounter non-human undead.
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Post by geoffrey on Apr 25, 2008 13:57:18 GMT -6
One of the reasons I do not like non-human undead is because of...
souls.
In pre-Greyhawk OD&D, only humans have clerics. I like that, and in my imagination only humans have one foot on earth and one in the spirit world. Dwarves, elves, dragons, giants, and all the rest do not have souls. When they die, that's it. They're dead. Humans, on the other hand, have souls and post-mortem destinies.
With this consideration in mind, it makes sense that humans and humans only can become undead. An elf (for example) can no more become undead than can a squirrel, and for the same reason: They have no souls, no clerics, and no gods. That's human stuff.
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Post by coffee on Apr 25, 2008 14:01:52 GMT -6
One of the reasons I do not like non-human undead is because of... souls. In pre-Greyhawk OD&D, only humans have clerics. I like that, and in my imagination only humans have one foot on earth and one in the spirit world. Dwarves, elves, dragons, giants, and all the rest do not have souls. When they die, that's it. They're dead. Humans, on the other hand, have souls and post-mortem destinies. With this consideration in mind, it makes sense that humans and humans only can become undead. An elf (for example) can no more become undead than can a squirrel, and for the same reason: They have no souls, no clerics, and no gods. That's human stuff. That's an interesting viewpoint. Does that mean that Raise Dead wouldn't work on a Dwarf? I mean, since the spell basically puts the soul back in the body. I don't have a problem with it working that way, (although I can imagine a lot of players screaming!) I just wondered if you included that in your line of thinking. |
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Post by geoffrey on Apr 25, 2008 15:02:13 GMT -6
Does that mean that Raise Dead wouldn't work on a Dwarf? I mean, since the spell basically puts the soul back in the body. In my imagination, the raise dead spell does not necessarily put a soul back into a body. Instead it's more of a "See that there corpse? Make it alive again!" So a dwarf could indeed be raised from the dead. Of course, with my conception of everyone other than humans being godless, a cleric had better have an EXCEPTIONALLY good reason to use a raise dead spell on a dwarf. |
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Post by pjork on Apr 26, 2008 14:24:13 GMT -6
I don't like demi-human undead, but then, I don't like demi-humans. However I do like undead animals and unusual undead variations like the Deceived of Set, or giant flesh golems stitched together from multiple corpses.
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Arminath
Level 4 Theurgist
WoO:CR
Posts: 150
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Post by Arminath on Apr 26, 2008 20:51:55 GMT -6
All of my humanoid lairs have at least 1 caster able to animate dead, so there's always a few skeletons or zombies (and rarely more powerful types of undead) of the critters. All human undead seems a bit wierd to me - especially if the party is 9 or so levels deep in creature lairs- where'd all the human bodies come from?You can only explain it away for so long.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Jul 4, 2008 15:57:57 GMT -6
Typically not, although Dwarven undead are particularly nasty...
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Post by ragnorakk on Apr 21, 2009 22:58:36 GMT -6
I like monstrous skeletons and zombies.
Scary.
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Post by badger2305 on Apr 24, 2009 8:03:16 GMT -6
I really think the non-humans should get their own undead monsters. It would really be rp differences (one could easily use traditional undead stats). hungry soul- halfling undead, it eats and eats and eats and keeps growing as it does so. treat as a mummy. knockers- undead dwarves that lead miners and travelrs below astray. When they isolate folks they corner and devour them. treat as ghouls. grey troll- actually a gnome with comically over grown hair and beards, comical indeed until one finds out they are as deadly as a wight. white lady- a beautiful woman, who enchants males (elfin and non elfin) into an embrace that drains their life-force from them. (vampires without all the associated powers, keep charm and the level draining). Let them walki in sunlight too but the will not openly enter combat. These are all quite good. Have an exalt for that! |
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Post by aldarron on Apr 30, 2009 17:52:11 GMT -6
One of the reasons I do not like non-human undead is because of... souls. In pre-Greyhawk OD&D, only humans have clerics. I like that, and in my imagination only humans have one foot on earth and one in the spirit world. Dwarves, elves, dragons, giants, and all the rest do not have souls. When they die, that's it. They're dead. Humans, on the other hand, have souls and post-mortem destinies. With this consideration in mind, it makes sense that humans and humans only can become undead. An elf (for example) can no more become undead than can a squirrel, and for the same reason: They have no souls, no clerics, and no gods. That's human stuff. Thats really a traditional Judeo Christian and ultimately Socratic beleif - a pre existing eternal soul that only humans posses, and only temporarily. Used to always be said that fairy folk (including Elves, trolls, dwarves etc.) had no souls. Anyway if that's the way you like your game, so be it, but I should think it would be a very big deal to Elves and Dwarves to be cheated out of a soul and might make for some very strong racial friction or perhaps attempts to steal souls from humans. And what about skeletons and zombies? Do you see them as being reinhabited by their original souls? I always think of it as an animal like ghost inhabiting these low level mosters, and in such cases any kind of corpse will do. I can definetly see where only certain kinds of species can become certain kinds of undead though, like vampires. In any case, its an interesting point you bring up, we always tend to assume undead are human. |
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Post by Mr. Darke on Apr 30, 2009 19:30:21 GMT -6
I use them every now and then. I never could explain why there were human zombies in an unexplored dwarven stronghold.
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Post by geoffrey on Apr 30, 2009 21:30:49 GMT -6
[And what about skeletons and zombies? Do you see them as being reinhabited by their original souls? No. Unlike the other undead, I see skeletons and zombies as motivated by an external force (in this case, the animate dead spell). A person's soul could be happily enjoying Elysium, while his body could be lurching around as a zombie. That said, I still allow ONLY human skeletons and zombies. What makes human bodies different than others'? They used to house souls. That can't be said for anything else. |
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Thangobrind
Level 3 Conjurer
Gygaxian Naturist
Posts: 87
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Post by Thangobrind on May 1, 2009 8:34:05 GMT -6
[OT]
Hmmm... I'd never considered the possibility of humans being unique in the soul department. The idea could be used to explain the close connection that dwarves and elves and other demi-human races have with the natural world, being essentially extensions of it. Even the term "demi-human" -- which always struck me as laughably anthropocentric -- seems reasonable in this light.
The idea does present some difficulties: For example, would an elf be able to pass into the Astral Plane? I mean, it seems like he would need a soul of some sort. Otherwise, what would that silver cord be connected to?
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Post by thorswulf on Sept 3, 2009 22:44:21 GMT -6
I like the ideas of the restless dead that come from Scandanavian sources. The undead are not limited to humans in these tales, some being undead bulls! Well the idea of a restless soul that walks the land because it was murdered could be d**n near universal as far as I am concerned. I don't use non human undead, but I might from now on. There was a great article about Norse undead in an old Different Worlds magazine that gave me a great deal to think about.
As far as revenge related undead are concerned, elves and dwarves would be d**n scary!
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Jan 28, 2010 11:01:05 GMT -6
I like using not just monster undead, but animal undead. For instance mice skeletons, or moose, black bear zombies, or ghouls. The list is endless.
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Post by gloriousbattle on Mar 24, 2010 12:58:33 GMT -6
Only if I have good minis for them, like dinosaur skeletons, for example.
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