Summoning, Stormbringer style

[famouswolf]

For my first posting I am venturing a question about the rules and how magic is intended to be used in this version of Hyperborea.

But first...I will be getting the game for Christmas and feel like a kid again. Like many of you here I am an old time fan of C. A. Smith, R. E. Howard, A. Merritt, and other authors that have obviously inspired the game. Lovecraft I like not so much, preferring other 'viewpoints' of the Mythos not quite so depressing, such as Brian Lumley's. (The setting reminds me of some of Lumley's stories more than Lovecrafts, and that's a good thing, imo). It's very exciting to see a well made game actually based on what amount to many of my favorite authors! You all really do have me as excited as a little kid for Christmas this year.

To the question, if anyone could be so good as to provide some guidance...

The game looks like a good match for Chaosium's first edition Stormbringer, including the human cultures instead of humanoid races. I will read the rules as they are first, but D&D is not my first choice for a ruleset, unfortunately. Jeff Talanian has stated that he favors the Vancian magic system and that brings me to the question I want to ask...how developed are the summoning rules, if any? It seems to me that a game based largely on CAS' Hyperborea would have well developed rules for summoning and *trying* to control demons, so what is there? (Tsathoqqua is obviously spot on as the primary god, and a good start).

I am only asking because my wife has already informed me that I will not be looking at the game until Christmas, sigh. So if y'all could help me out with this little matter? I'm a desperate man!

[famouswolf]

What, no one knows?

Is there even a summoning spell listed? Surely!

[mabon5127]

Dec 8, 2012 19:13:32 GMT -6 famouswolf said:

What, no one knows?

Is there even a summoning spell listed? Surely!

Hey Famouswolf!

That is cruel and unusual punishment for your wife to withhold the game until Christmas! I promise you will still be like a kid while reading the books.

The good news is that you can feel free to port in the summoning rules from Stormbringer! There are no specific rules for the care of raising of demons. The Priest subclass has the ability at high levels to compel the creatures using Demonwrack but beyond that nothing specific.

Given the mixture of gods from "Mythos", "Earth Myth" and "Ghul's Myth" demons and their ilk represent a fairly small portion of the possible protagonists. Thaumagorga, the god of demons was a hometown boy made good as his power grew to the point that he made himself a god. He has 6 (I think) princes that serve him and is the only god that is "evil" in the sense that we understand.

For me the summoning of demons is a hand waving exercise as the type of character capable of doing so would have to dedicate their life and soul to the practice making hobbies like adventuring impractical. Given that demons in Hyperborea are wholly evil the acceptability and practicality of a summoning character in a group is limited. This type of behavior though is a staple of Sword and Sorcery and form villains that we all love to hate!

The other gods may have servants of a supernatural bent and may seem like demons to the general populace but are not so in the strict sense.

Jeff can slap me down or correct my mistakes as this is mostly my opinion.

Welcome BTW!

Morgan

[geoffrey]

I suspect that my Carcosa supplement ( www.lotfp.com/store/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=145 ) might be what you're looking for. It includes a new character class called the sorcerer.

Sorcerers have no powers of their own in the sense of spells that allow flight, fireballs, and all the rest. Instead, they perform intricate and long rituals that require extensive material components (especially human sacrifices) that do one of six things:

banish demonic/Cthulhoid entities
conjure demonic/Cthulhoid entities
invoke demonic/Cthulhoid entities
bind demonic/Cthulhoid entities
imprison demonic/Cthulhoid entities
torment demonic/Cthulhoid entities

The book includes 96 sample sorcerous rituals, along with the entities they affect.

Taking my inspiration directly from the Elric stories, sorcerers can use any arms and armor, and they fight as well as and are as tough as fighters.

I'm sure that Carcosa would work very well with AS&SH.

[famouswolf]

mabon, thanks for the info. It sounds like a base from which to build, although I was hoping for more I was not expecting it. I'll have to read the rules before I decide exactly what to do. The fun part is putting this stuff together these days anyway. I don't think I'll use Stormbringer, though...if I go that route I might use the DCC rules for demonic beings and assign them to Hyperborean deities. A homemade set of demonic entities and assigned powers modeled on what's given.

geoffrey, I was looking at Carcosa a few weeks ago as a possible companion to Hyperborea, but the grindhouse edition sort of turned me off LotFP. I saw some of the more lurid illustrations in a review on the net and it was a bridge too far for me. Some questions...is Carcosa a bit more reserved than the grindhouse edition or on a par, about the same level of gore and such? How much of the book is actually dedicated detailing the magic system, versus sandbox locations and other material? It is still a possible purchase, even though grindhouse LotFP made me nervous about associated material. I don't mind some gore and sexual material, but not at that level. If I find that Carcosa is toned down a notch or two I might just take you up on it. If it's equivalent then no thanks. Not my thing (grindhouse). Oh, and are you the author?

[Deleted]

There was, at one time, a version of Carcosa for sale that had some of the more explicit bits excised. This version went off the market when Raggi's company acquired the rights to publish the LotFP version of the rules.

[famouswolf]

So the present edition is as the grindhouse version of LotFP?

[Deleted]

Dec 9, 2012 0:11:15 GMT -6 famouswolf said:

So the present edition is as the grindhouse version of LotFP?

The Grindhouse edition is the only Carcosa edition currently in print. You may find the full and expurgated original editions for sale; but they are long out of print and therefore scarce. . . you'll pay top dollar for them.

[famouswolf]

Yup. I was just looking on e bay and there is a copy of the original 96 page version...$75.00.

Is the present LotFP version as gruesome as the grindhouse edition of LotFP?

[Deleted]

There are portions that are rather explicit. Carcosa is a violent world.

[famouswolf]

I just finished reading James' four part review over at Grognardia. It sounds useful, and it is interesting that it stirred up some controversy.

Hmm. I'll have to think about it, but I think I'd prefer to leave the details of demon summoning and such up to the players' imagination. Like the old movies, sometimes the best way to engender horror or fear is to suggest, not get in ones' face with the gory awful details.

Right now I have Hyperborea to check out, and need to see how the magic as is fits the mood. Maybe Carcosa later depending on mood and players.

Thanks for the responses.

[Ghul]

To the OP: Indeed, it is a traditional Vancian magic system with many of its own campaign specific variations. If you are looking for something more like the Stormbringer RPG, you will have to invent it, or perhaps bridge the two together.

Re: Carcosa. I get along well with Geoffrey on the message boards, and he has been kind enough to publicly ask intriguing questions about the AS&SH game for 3 years now. I appreciate that. During the early development of his supplement, I was interested in his interpretation of HPL and Machen meets 0e, but upon reading some of the excerpts posted online in the aftermath of its publication, I'm afraid I count myself among the uninterested and the uncomfortable. To be perfectly clear: I do not endorse games that simulate child rape, I don't care what the literary antecedents are, and I do not advocate or encourage the use of Carcosa with AS&SH in any way shape or form.

Jeff Talanian

[Deleted]

Dec 9, 2012 1:37:05 GMT -6 famouswolf said:

... but I think I'd prefer to leave the details of demon summoning and such up to the players' imagination.

If you're having fun, you're doing it right.

[geoffrey]

Dec 9, 2012 9:01:07 GMT -6 Ghul said:

I do not endorse games that simulate child rape, I don't care what the literary antecedents are, and I do not advocate or encourage the use of Carcosa with AS&SH in any way shape or form.

This is a regretably common misconception amongst those who have read some particular things online but have not read the book itself, so let me elucidate :

The 13 races of men on Carcosa are not homo sapiens. They did not evolve here on planet Earth. They exist on a planet 153 light years away (p. 2), where they were bred by the Snake-Men to be sacrifices for their sorcerous rituals. They are extraterrestrials. They are not humans. I use the English words "human", "men", etc. to describe them only because I can't write the book in the language(s) of Carcosa, which don't even exist! ;D This practice of nomenclature is the same for all the entities in the book. The "Suckered Abomination" (p. 104) is not called the "Suckered Abomination" on Carcosa because nobody on Carcosa speaks English. It would be silly if instead of "humans" and "Suckered Abomination" I wrote (for example) "oomphas" and "xlthat machaw" (or whatever). The "humans" on Carcosa have no more relation to us than do the Wookies from Star Wars.

In fact, the Carcosans don't even look like us. Consider the list of skin colors on p. 15. If one of them was walking around on Earth, nobody would think it was human. We'd think it was an extraterrestrial and/or monster. What's more, the 13 races can't even interbreed (p. 16). So they are really 13 separate species, none of which is homo sapiens. We could not interbreed with any of them.

All of the above means that the 13 races of Carcosa have different life-cycles than do we homo sapiens. Consider chimpanzees: They mate and have babies at ages 8-10. Look at what it says about the 13 races of Carcosa on page 236: "Adulthood and reproductive capability are typically reached at ages 10-12." So there is no child-rape in Carcosa. Homo sapiens are not adults at ages 10-12, but the 13 races on Carcosa are adults at ages 10-12. A "human" on Carcosa of age 10-12 is equivalent to a homo sapiens of about twice that age (i. e., 20-24). Thus the 5 sentences mentioning rape in the book deal with extraterrestrials who are unambiguously adults.

[geoffrey]

Dec 8, 2012 23:55:32 GMT -6 famouswolf said:

geoffrey, I was looking at Carcosa a few weeks ago as a possible companion to Hyperborea, but the grindhouse edition sort of turned me off LotFP. I saw some of the more lurid illustrations in a review on the net and it was a bridge too far for me. Some questions...is Carcosa a bit more reserved than the grindhouse edition or on a par, about the same level of gore and such? How much of the book is actually dedicated detailing the magic system, versus sandbox locations and other material? It is still a possible purchase, even though grindhouse LotFP made me nervous about associated material. I don't mind some gore and sexual material, but not at that level. If I find that Carcosa is toned down a notch or two I might just take you up on it. If it's equivalent then no thanks. Not my thing (grindhouse). Oh, and are you the author?

Let me answer your questions one-by-one:

1. The art in Carcosa is not nearly as lurid as that in the Grindhouse edition of the LotFP game. The art is all black-and-white. Like the AD&D books, it contains naked female breasts. Here's how I'd rate them: If the AD&D books have art that is rated PG, and if the Grindhouse has art that is rated R, then Carcosa's art would be rated PG-13. To see what the art is like in Carcosa, check-out the PDF preview:
www.lotfp.com/RPG/uploads/pdf/CarcosaPreview.pdf

2. Carcosa is explicit but not graphic. That is, terse and clinical but not sensationalistic detail is given in the sorcerous rituals.

3. In the 275-page book, 4 pages describe the sorcerer character class, 34 pages describe the 96 rituals, 6 pages contain sorcerous reference tables, and many (but not all) of the monsters in the 38-page monster section detail monsters that are affected by sorcerous rituals.

4. Yes, I'm the author.

If it will help you make your decision on whether or not you might like Carcosa, I can email you some of the rituals therein.

If I didn't answer your questions well, or if you have further questions, please don't hesitate to ask. ;D

[crusssdaddy]

Dec 9, 2012 9:01:07 GMT -6 Ghul said:

I do not advocate or encourage the use of Carcosa with AS&SH in any way shape or form.

Jeff Talanian

I agree unreservedly with this sentiment. Carcosa would only be diminished by such an association.

[giantbat]

Dec 9, 2012 10:32:08 GMT -6 crusssdaddy said:

I agree unreservedly with this sentiment. Carcosa would only be diminished by such an association.

I am a supporter of Geoffrey's right to publish Carcosa with the rituals as-is, and I own an original unexpurgated copy of the supplement. That said, this is the AS&SH sub-forum, Carcosa has its own sub-forum, and with the author of AS&SH having stated his disposition toward Carcosa, the continued Carcosa posts seem like threadcrapping to me. Also, the quote above seems plain rude. I should know, I've been rude on this forum before, as recently as last night. Although I generally have the decency to recognize when my comments aren't welcome, discontinue them, and apologize.

[Ghul]

Yes, please divert all Carcosa discussions to the Carcosa subforum of this site. Geoffrey is a fine fellow, but I don't favor his game for reasons stated above.

[Deleted]

My apologies to Jeff and everyone else on this sub-forum. I didn't mean to derail the discussion. In my defense, I saw the post from the "Recent Posts" link from the Main Forum Page. The individual posts in the search results don't show the from which threads they are taken.

I should have been a bit more careful and take full responsibility for the derail.

[Ghul]

Dec 9, 2012 12:19:37 GMT -6 @dubeers said:

My apologies to Jeff and everyone else on this sub-forum. I didn't mean to derail the discussion. In my defense, I saw the post from the "Recent Posts" link from the Main Forum Page. The individual posts in the search results don't show the from which threads they are taken.

I should have been a bit more careful and take full responsibility for the derail.

No apologies necessary, Cameron.

[Deleted]

This is getting a bit silly. The OP, famouswolf, asked for suggestions for an alternate spell-casting system (see the title of the thread). Geoffrey suggested the Sorcerer class/system in his Carcosa supplement might be a good fit. The OP asked some specific questions about Carcosa (obviously so as to clarify whether it's a fit for his AS&SoH game) and Geoffrey replied to those questions.

Then, Jeff (Ghul) expressed his distaste for Carcosa and suddenly that's morphed into get the fcuk out of my/his sub-forum and go back to your own?

I thought the people of this forum were better than this. Very disappointing.

[Ghul]

Dec 9, 2012 13:18:29 GMT -6 @austrodavicus said:

This is getting a bit silly. The OP, famouswolf, asked for suggestions for an alternate spell-casting system (see the title of the thread). Geoffrey suggested the Sorcerer class/system in his Carcosa supplement might be a good fit. The OP asked some specific questions about Carcosa (obviously so as to clarify whether it's a fit for his AS&SoH game) and Geoffrey replied to those questions.

Then, Jeff (Ghul) expressed his distaste for Carcosa and suddenly that's morphed into get the fcuk out of my/his sub-forum and go back to your own?

I thought the people of this forum were better than this. Very disappointing.

I think Geoffrey deleted some of his subsequent posts, so you see reactions to posts that disappeared. The internet! No worries. I have no issues with Geoff.

[famouswolf]

I was just asking for info about a type of magic in the game, since I am banned from reading it 'til Christmas.

I didn't mean to start unpleasantness, and it is unnecessary, guys.

That said, after consideration and reading the reviews on Grognardia, I will not be using Carcosa either. I am uncomfortable with going into that level of detail about sorcery as well.

I am going with the game as is and if I want more summoning in the game will use my Arcanum. On reflection I also don't think Stormbringer would give me a CAS 'feel' either...too chaotic.

Nothing personal, geoffrey, just not really my thing when it gets down to the nitty gritty. I guess I'm a girly man about it, like James M.

[giantbat]

I had no beef with the original post by famouswolf, or Geoffrey suggesting Carcosa as a response. I like Geoffrey and Carcosa. Heck, this is the "OD&D Discussion" forum and I bought my copy of OD&D from Geoffrey. I bought AS&SH recently and am enjoying it, and have contemplated whether there is a place for Carcosan elements in my AS&SH campaign, though I'm thinking more rayguns, dinosaurs, etc.

I thought the conversation was taking an unnecessarily antagonistic turn with the comment that I quoted in my previous post. I think it's pretty rude for someone to come into the AS&SH sub-forum and say that Carcosa would be worse if used with AS&SH just because they don't agree with Jeff's opinions regarding Carcosa. I spoke my mind, and maybe I shouldn't have, and maybe I shouldn't now. I'm not a mod, I'm not affiliated with Geoffrey or Jeff, I'm just a guy who doesn't keep his mouth shut some times when he should. And I wouldn't say anyone else in this thread is guilty of anything worse than that. I probably spoke out of turn, and no one has to listen to me. Again, I just think it's rude to insult AS&SH in the AS&SH sub-forum just because you don't like the author's opinion of your favorite thing. I guess I don't understand why someone would have a problem with shutting down an insult instead of having a problem with the insult. Anyway, I wasn't the one being insulted and I should have probably just let it pass with the discretion evidenced by others wiser than I.

Bleh. I thought this was an interesting thread and wanted to avoid seeing it derailed, and by sticking my nose in I contributed to derailing it. Sorry.

[famouswolf]

You've nothing to apologize for, imo. Nor do I think you or anyone else has derailed the thread, I'm still looking for more suggestions.

I've been thinking about ways to simulate Clark Ashton Smith and A. Merritt stories ever since this game came onto my radar. Part of the 'groove' for me is contacting extra-dimensional entities for purposes, whether to serve as guardians, for lore, to assassinate a rival...you know, things the sorcerers in the stories did. Stormbringer style is too coarse and too powerful. One also wants the sorcerer who takes this route to get into trouble easily. As payment, as it were. This is one of the identifying aspects of Hyperborea for me. As for the details, I get squeamish. Also, I don't like grim and hopeless settings. I usually played the Stormbringer rules in my own settings.

So, any other suggestions? Right now I'm thinking the old Bard Games' Arcanum looks very good for this. Want to learn a specific spell? An enemy carried off to exile? Your treasure trove protected from those pesky adventurers? Help is only a pentagram and a deal away.

[giantbat]

I'm not very familiar with most of the sources you're looking to, my relevant reading being mostly REH and HPL. But I feel in balance I should try to contribute something of value to the discussion, so I'll aim as close to the mark as I'm able. What you're describing reminds me of an old goetic magic supplement I once downloaded for a generic system. I think it was for Fudge or GURPS, but I can't seem to find it now. There look to be a number of more recent d20 products covering goetic magic, or as some of them like to call it, "pact" magic. Unfortunately they seem to focus a lot of their page count on cataloging goetic spirits, which probably is not of use. But perhaps you could find some value in them? It looks like there is a free intro download for one of the products which might suffice for evaluation: www.radiancehouse.com/games.htm

[giantbat]

Rolling your own system for this could let you kill two birds with one stone. When demons bargain payment for their services, you drop hooks for further adventure. Put a Quest/Geas in the mix if desired. Don't make it easy; the risk is present in that the demon will ask of the character something requiring activity far more dangerous than they would otherwise seek on their own. Steal an artifact from under the nose of an opponent too powerful to take head on. Or levy other costs, like acting against a previously allied organization. The demon would likely seek to corrupt the character, but if you're creating the specifics, you'll be able to pursue that in a way that's comfortable for everyone. A chance for chaos mutation can always spice things up too. Part of the challenge for the player becomes bargaining for service commensurate with the cost. Something like this could probably be more engaging than a set of rules, although I don't know if it could provide the atmosphere you're seeking or if I'm heading on a different course with this.

[giantbat]

Dec 9, 2012 19:47:06 GMT -6 @giantbat said:

What you're describing reminds me of an old goetic magic supplement I once downloaded for a generic system. I think it was for Fudge or GURPS, but I can't seem to find it now.

I may have been thinking of this: FUDGE Spirit Magic

[famouswolf]

This is the sort of suggestions and material I'm looking for.

I want the summonings to complicate the player's lives and generate scenarios.

Yes, and thanks.

Maybe if I beg Marilyn will let me have an early present.

[giantbat]

You'd think somewhere in the blogs or forums there would be a random table titled "What does the demon want?" but I can't find one. Maybe someone else knows if such a table exists?

One could look to this for inspiration, I suppose: The Thirty-Six Dramatic Situations
Make a random roll ((d6 - 1) * 6) + d6 to select one, interpret result in a way congruent with a demon's desires. If it doesn't seem directly relevant, perhaps it reflects a situation the demon has an interest in and wishes to influence the outcome of.