Robs house rules

[aldarron]

Mostly, this is a question for Rob, but maybe others will know too.

We see a few mentions here and there for Gary's houserules with OD&D (like here cyclopeatron.blogspot.com/2010/03/gary-gygaxs-whitebox-od-house-rules.html ) and a couple of Daves also, and that got me wondering if Rob had any favorite houserules?

[grodog]

Rob runs a pretty quick/tight ship, in terms of combat and PC actions: he aggressively manages the pace of the game, so I'd be surprised if some of his house rules didn't work to speed things up....

[Deleted]

Though Grodog is spot on in what he said, I suggest that what was posted at the referring link by Aldarron are not House Rules; they are rules we all used during the playtest of the game. Pedantic? Nope. By the time these were published and in wide circulation, the rules which were to approximate AD&D (that is, those we continued to formulate and use in play in our Greyhawk Campaign and as expressed in Supplement #1, Greyhawk, Gygax & Kuntz), replaced many of these in our view as played and as published. In taking into account their widespread appeal from Supplement #1, EGG and I noted that for every 10 copies of D&D sold, 9 copies of Greyhawk #1 sold alongside it, making the two nigh inseparable as far as universal appeal and use. No other supplement to the rules even came close to this 9/10 ratio. Prior to early release of GH #1, Gary, myself and our group in LG had all transitioned to the supplemental rules in #1.

Now if one wants to ask what House Rules outside of "adopted print rules" i used, please do so, but I feel that the matter as mixed is not only confusing but paints a weird and less distinct picture of what an adopted rule from print is as opposed to anything made up outside of that is. -- RJK

[aldarron]

Thanks Rob. Yeah, hadn't thought much about that. Except for one or two, most of those "houserules" do look like Greyhawk and AD&D rules now that you point it out.

But, I would indeed be interested in knowing any rules - outside of adopted print rules - you liked to use.

[Deleted]

ROB's Rules (Hold the Mayo)... Part 1 (other parts to follow):

Hey. OK. I did not like specific rules that EGG had created and let him know this; and even though we DMed Greyhawk together using the specific rules that were then understood by players as consistent, whenever he (as Mordenkainen, Yrag, Bigby, etc.) or others of the LGTSA played in parts of my area (El Raja Key, extensions of Greyhawk where EGG participated in where I had created the matter specifically for playtest (Machine Level, etc.) or other, I house-ruled some spells and stuck to them.

* Know Alignment--absolutely hate it; always have, always will. In my game/campaign/world it does not exist or will not work, and I let folks know that. In keeping with that, alignment is not discoverable except through social perception, that is, PCs/NPCs are considered Neutral until proven/proving otherwise through revealed conduct. There are differences, as in TRUELY AND IRREVOCABLY EVIL or GOOD, such as DEMONS or ANGELIC-LIKE beings in this instance; and these are always seen to radiate an aura unless they suppress it in some manner. They do not normally do so, or their attempt to do so may not be successful, and thus they stand forth brazenly revealing who or what they are. Thus in my conception there are radiants of GOOD and EVIL so high (Demonic/God) that these announce themselves (the source) through affecting the aural/emotive sensory fields of mortals or anything beneath them (and so too within my World/extended universe exist beings not of this assumed moral plane that do not register in this regard within it, either, imagine that...). Paladins in my conception are changed in a similar manner and merely get hints that the creature or person is not good, but no specifics on whether they are evil. There are other nuances that will come up during play, but this covers most of them. I have played this way since 1972 and have merely amended alignment in this manner when it was introduced by EGG through his conceptions in play or in written/understood methods and rules, which I am obviously, and he knew it, not in accord with on most, if not all, levels. In all I really dislike the Alignment paradigm as expressed and have since early on sculpted it into a more elastic and realistic form, and thus less abstract, as presented in all versions of the D&D game.

[geoffrey]

Nov 4, 2010 22:56:00 GMT -6 robkuntz said:

EGG and I noted that for every 10 copies of D&D sold, 9 copies of Greyhawk #1 sold alongside it, making the two nigh inseparable as far as universal appeal and use. No other supplement to the rules even came close to this 9/10 ratio. Prior to early release of GH #1, Gary, myself and our group in LG had all transitioned to the supplemental rules in #1.

All very interesting, Rob. ;D

[Deleted]

Yes, Geoffrey, indeed. As it turns out, much of the purist line of thought regarding OD&D in LG being only the 3 LBB in fact was the 4LBB and quite solidly on its way to AD&D in late/1974/early 1975. I am devoting quite a lot of material in my memoirs about this--In fact the period from when I met EGG in 1968 through 1973 and the formation of TSR occupies a good 1/3 of the book.

[amalric]

I'm fascinated, as always, to read even these little pieces about the game's earliest days. I have no idea of the numbers, but I would guess (and I stress 'guess') that there are at least as many people who detest Alignment in the game as are in favour of it - I'm against it.

In any case, looking forward to those memoirs, Rob!

[aldarron]

Nov 6, 2010 19:00:26 GMT -6 robkuntz said:

Yes, Geoffrey, indeed. As it turns out, much of the purist line of thought regarding OD&D in LG being only the 3 LBB in fact was the 4LBB and quite solidly on its way to AD&D in late/1974/early 1975. I am devoting quite a lot of material in my memoirs about this--In fact the period from when I met EGG in 1968 through 1973 and the formation of TSR occupies a good 1/3 of the book.

The story from Gary as to why D&D was "rushed" into print early has been that he they were concerned about reports that someone else was working on getting a similar game into publication. I've wondered about this though since I've never seen or heard anything about who that may have been or what the game was. Maybe you know something about that Rob?

Anyway, I've speculated that it may have been the case that the real reason was that Gary saw no more point to going back and forth with Dave Arneson on a compromise ruleset, so instead decided to publish the rules as is, and then follow with a Greyhawk and Blackmoor supplement so both He and Dave could present thier versions of the game (and have more products to sell). That would seem to be in line with what your saying Rob but I wonder if you think that could be the case or not.

[Deleted]

Well, I don't know about it being "rushed". He may have thought that but it was never outwardly expressed. The fact that it had been heavily circulated in idea and rough form (to Avalon Hill, SPI, who both rejected it; and to out of town play-testers who were also game designers in some instances) may have driven that view, but, again, we P-Td the game for a good year straight, many times 2-3 times daily, etc., so I never saw it as being rushed. The idea that it was an ever morphing and growing idea was always before us, and particularly that there could be no end in sight if we kept tinkering with it; so if EGG was doing some backtracking to explain why the supplements were printed so soon and not included up front, may be the reason he stated that. I dunno. We could have waited for supplement #1 between he and I, but that would have added a third author up front which I was to become anyway through the GH #1, for as I said, that supplement really changed the game and kept the door wide open to the idea of creative change, as well. That is of course in keeping with the actual spirit of the game.

About the compromise ruleset. I would not say that was the reason. He had already decided to rewrite it whole cloth from Dave's 16pp of rough notes (I have posted on that elsewhere), what he struggled with were how the Chainmail rules, which he wanted to fit into it in some manner, would finally have to be separated; and we finally did that with supplement #1.

[aldarron]

Nov 7, 2010 18:34:57 GMT -6 robkuntz said:

what he struggled with were how the Chainmail rules, which he wanted to fit into it in some manner, would finally have to be separated; and we finally did that with supplement #1.

Ah, that's interesting. I never thought of the reason for Greyhawk being presented as a supplement instead of being incorporated in the original rules being EGG's desire to have backwards compatibility (for lack of a better phrase) with Chainmail in the rules while then moving away from them with Greyhawk. Makes a lot of sense.

[Deleted]

Well that's one reason, the others being that EGG was under-employed (as a shoemaker), TSR was operating on a shoe-string budget (pun intended) with Don Kaye's small investment, and that the growing interest in the game as circulated indicated that it would probably sell reasonably well (it actually broke all those expectations many times over in the first few months). Greyhawk's additional game-face-changing rules were not ready to go at the time of release; that would have required us waiting on the release and play-testing the changes; and one of the major ones which I arrived at (different hit dice ranges for classes) didn't occur until 1-2 months as I recall *before* we went to print. There were a lot of factors in the decision, and as I noted, the game was new to us and we were inventing new boundaries then. But to condense it: the additional rules were not finished by EGG and I as yet and we had a presumed hit on our hands coupled with a low budget. You can rightly assume why the choice to print after 1 year of solid play-testing was made from there.--RJK

[kesher]

Rob, this is astoundingly useful information for understanding the evolution of the game! Thank you for sharing it, and I, for one, am looking forward eagerly to reading your memoirs!

As it turns out, much of the purist line of thought regarding OD&D in LG being only the 3 LBB in fact was the 4LBB and quite solidly on its way to AD&D in late/1974/early 1975.

This timeline alone, when I read it last night, blew my mind. I'll only speak for myself, but I'm now seeing my "purist" nostalgia more as fiction than anything else... Community fic? Fan fic? I dunno but, in this case, the truth is turning out to be more interesting than the fiction!

[Deleted]

Thanks Kesher. I will relay the true history to the best of my memory, no theorizing or guesses as I see too often on the Internet. This will include the wargaming days (IFW, LGTSA, C&C Society), my very personal relationship with the Gygax family, my early days of education and study (I was reading scholastic level encyclopedias and many of the Harvard Classics by age 8) and how that all fits together with the many, many personalities, experiences, Gencons, gaming, travels, TSR, EGG & family, and the truly magical atmosphere of that time. It's long as projected, estimated 700 pages of ms, and I am not sure who will publish it as yet, as I cannot afford to do so (too big), but I shall cross that bridge when I get to it.

[harami2000]

Nov 7, 2010 17:28:29 GMT -6 aldarron said:

The story from Gary as to why D&D was "rushed" into print early has been that he they were concerned about reports that someone else was working on getting a similar game into publication. I've wondered about this though since I've never seen or heard anything about who that may have been or what the game was. Maybe you know something about that Rob?

Nov 7, 2010 18:34:57 GMT -6 robkuntz said:

Well, I don't know about it being "rushed". He may have thought that but it was never outwardly expressed. The fact that it had been heavily circulated in idea and rough form (to Avalon Hill, SPI, who both rejected it; and to out of town play-testers who were also game designers in some instances) may have driven that view, but, again, we P-Td the game for a good year straight, many times 2-3 times daily, etc., so I never saw it as being rushed.

Perhaps not totally "rushed", but "well timed" with a degree of urgency behind that.
I'm 100% certain that Gary knew full well that even outwith D&D playtesting there were people crawling all over the fundamental ideas - and way beyond those - from various directions, even if not having /every/ single one (equating "RPG" to mean "OD&D", of course) in a single published entity or series of books. The likes of Blake, Curtis and Colwill were possibly closest in that regard and publishing their ongoing findings/revisions in full sight.
From that point of view it was a smart move to delay no longer with D&D's publication.

[Deleted]

Hi David. I agree that there is some room for speculation, quite right; only responding to what I knew in this case and somewhat to how i felt then, given all those circumstances. I believe that some of what you point to is covered by it being a known idea to others through EGG submitting it and circulating it, which IMO, then circulates the idea, even if only if talked about in the negative ("That Gygax chap and his crazy idea, let me tell yah...".