idrahil
Level 6 Magician
The Lighter The Rules, The Better The Game!
Posts: 398
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Post by idrahil on Oct 22, 2012 14:51:17 GMT -6
Hey all, I mentioned last week in ravenheart's thread about optional classes I was interested in adding a Knight class and a Druid class.
If this should be kept in that thread, please merge it with it. I'm not sure of this forum's etiquette for "hi-jacking" threads.
Here is my Knight Class and would like thoughts on making it "jive" well with DD / OD&D spirit.
Requirement: Constitution 15+ (One of the things I think of is a knight being in better fighting condition than a typical fighter)
Abilities & Restrictions:
• Must be Lawful
• Same as Fighter as far as fighting enemies with 1+1 HD or fewer.
• Can us any armor / weapon but must always have at least Chainmail unless under extreme circumstances.
• 30-180+100 starting gold (To be used to buy horse, mail or better, weapons). If Knight rolls and with the extra 100g still does not have enough to buy a horse, the knight will have lost his horse in a joust.
• Expertly Trained with Sword & Lance and receives a non-magical +1 to hit with these weapons.
• Immune to natural fear and receives a +2 to saves vs magical fear effects.
• Hospitality - Will receive food & shelter within the realm of his Liege Lord.*
• Beholden to the commands of his Liege Lord.*
• Squire - Basically a "free" hireling to act as torchbearer & porter. Will fight if commanded or to defend his Knight if the knight has fallen. Once a squire gains 1000 xp, he should be knighted at which point a new squire is assigned.*
• Can choose to be a "Hedge Knight" with no liege lord but forfeits Hospitality rights and the Squire.
• Level 9 - Stronghold
• Does not use missile weapons
• Must always fight a readied opponent (will not participate in a surprise round)
• Uses the Fighter Saving throws & Attack Matrix
• HD are 1+3 at level 1, 2+2 at level 2 and then 3+1 at three, 4+1 at 4, etc.
• Max level is 10 with the xp for each level being:
1=0 2=2,250 3=4,500 4=9,000 5=18,000 6=36,000 7=75,000 8=150,000 9=300,000 10=600,000
So the Knight has the same xp max of 600,000 but fewer levels so that eventually a Fighter will be a better "fighter" than the knight due to the knight lacking the saving throw improvements and to hit improvements of level 11 and 12.
Thoughts? I worry its not streamlined enough ...
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 22, 2012 15:45:57 GMT -6
Since you've asked, here is a bit of constructive criticism:
You've made a better fighter. Lots of advantages and few disadvantages. My acid test for deciding whether to allow a variant class into my campaign?
Would any sane player select the base class over the variant?
This class, in my opinion, is over-powered. Especially if you allow variant character generation, such as the oft employed "roll 4d6, drop lowest, arrange to taste".
I think you've made a good start but I also believe it still needs work.
One last thought I'd like to offer regarding checks and balances: never offset a mechanical advantage with a role-playing disadvantage. We all saw how well that worked with Unearthed Arcana Barbarian class.
I hope this helps.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 22, 2012 16:14:56 GMT -6
Some additional thoughts, so my advice to you is not confined to "change it".
Must be Lawful: Good, I like this. Perhaps add a requirement requiring the Cavalier to engage on sight any other Cavalier who has turned coat and become Chaotic?
Versus 1 HD or fewer: Yeah, any advantage I'd give fighters I would also extend to Cavaliers.
Armor/Weapons: Nice idea. Keep this.
Starting Gold: Why not just give the Cav a horse, suit of mail, and sword + lance instead of increasing gold? Otherwise, you'll have some player who insists his guy would spend it on x, y, and z instead.
Expertly Trained: Consider granting the +1 only when the Cav is mounted or fighting mounted opponents.
Hospitality: Nice idea.
Beholden to Liege: Nice idea, and a great way to add an adventure hook to the game. Just resist the urge to abuse it.
Hedge Knight: Not sure what to think of this. It could lead to some interesting interplay if a PC hedge knight is confronted by a NPC Cavalier (as in the old samurai versus ronin).
Stronghold: Good, leave this in.
Missile Weapons: Probably a good idea, but I can imagine all kinds of ways PCs will try to get around it. And the barracks room lawyer arguments.
Readied Opponent: Very nice idea, well in keeping with the idea of the class.
Fighter Matrix: Yeah, that's how I'd do it, too.
Hit Dice: How's about increased HD at the first few levels to reflect rigorous childhood training, then decreasing to match that of the fighter class at fourth level?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 22, 2012 16:33:40 GMT -6
I like the concept. I think the Paladin, as presented in supplement I is an alternative you might want to consider. Less work too.
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Post by waysoftheearth on Oct 22, 2012 16:46:25 GMT -6
Here is my Knight Class and would like thoughts on making it "jive" well with DD / OD&D spirit. Hi Idrahil, Nice work... FWIW, here's my thoughts: Overall impression is that this PC concept is not so very different from my own notion of the Cavalier. With that one, I made sure to carve out the "mounted combat" niche for the Cavalier, while leaving the "foot combat" niche for the regular fighter. Personally I would treat the Knight the same way. Constitution requirement? Personally, I'd drop that. What about a really old Knight, or a Knight suffering from tuberculosis? Either could have constitution 4. Must be Lawful? Personally, I'd say cannot be neutral. Must be either FOR the realm, or AGAINST the realm. Then you have your Knights and Black-Knights (lawful and chaotic) set up, the same way as with Clerics and Anti-Clerics. Can use any armor? Personally, I would say must use the most expensive metal armour he can afford. It is a matter of pride and status. Leather armour is for brigands and scum. A KNIGHT wears plate armour. Even if there is a suit of Elven mail +3 lying about, he must use plate armour instead. Can use any weapon? I might restrict him to "noble" weapons only. Slings? Staff? Club? Those are paltry things. Missile weapons? Those are for cowards and cheats. A KNIGHT faces his opponent personally! +100 starting gold? Personally, I would say he starts with a free horse instead. Money is for scribes and accountants to quibble over. +1 to hit with sword & lance? I would drop this, or -- as Cameron suggested -- make it from horseback only. Immune to natural fear? I would drop this. All PCs are immune to morale rolls already. If anything, I might allow a Knight's retinue to have +1 to morale checks while the knight is still fighting boldly. Hospitality? Yes Beholden? Yes Squire? Yes, but the Knight also has a responsibility to his Squire. Remember that the squire is some other Knight's son. And that other Knight will be none too pleased if his son should be maimed or killed for no good reason. Hedge Knight? Hmmm, possibly... but I see this more as a campaign situation than a player "option". If a Knight should fall out of grace with his Lord then he could be stripped of his status and benefits and become (shock! horror!) an "ordinary" fighter. Stronghold? Yes. No missile weapons? Yes. Cannot participate in a surprise round? Yes. Uses the Fighter Saving throws & Attack Matrix? Yes. Extra hit points? Personally, I would just use the fighter hp. A few things thoughts to chew on, I hope, but ultimately it is your game. So do what pleases you ;D
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idrahil
Level 6 Magician
The Lighter The Rules, The Better The Game!
Posts: 398
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Post by idrahil on Oct 22, 2012 18:29:10 GMT -6
Thanks everyone! Yes the +1 to hit will be mounted and I will go with the horse instead of gold. I was trying to come up with a way where the player had lost his horse in a joust but that can just be RPed. I plan of plenty of outdoor action so mounted combat should give the knight a chance to shine there. As for the Constitution requirement, I admit I was trying to mimic how the Paladin needs 17 Charisma. (I'm going off 2e) but I'm wanting knights to be different from fighting men and not just in a role play way. Delving Deeper is going to be my first time going back to the basics and want any changes I make to make a bit more sense than chancges I have made in the past. So I want to wait and see how ravenheart's paladin looks. Because I want Paladns to be VERY rare. But knights are more numerous. What sort of requirement should there be to set the class apart? Lesser CHA requirement (as gallantry can be found at all ages and conditions of knight) Major differences between knight and fighter would be: Mounted bonus, and I think I'm just going to go with Cameron's idea of extra HD at lower levels. (Because I've recently learned the idea of HPs as an overall measure of training and avoiding damage, not just shrugging arrow and sword wounds). Horse & Squire with associated stipulations and weapon & armor preferences. When I look at the Paladin, they do so much. Touch heals, cure disease, immune to disease, turn undead, spell casting. Wow. I would just like a tiny bit of something for the Knight. How about a once a day "Inspire" that starts as +to hit for those around him, gains +1 to Saving Throws next level, +1,2,3,4 Temporary Hit Points the following levels. Is it too much? I want them to be different in such a way that they are attractive without gimping a fighter. Thanks for helping
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 22, 2012 19:26:59 GMT -6
"Inspire" is a great idea ... think Braveheart.
"They can take our lives ... but they can't take our FREEDOM!"
As far as the "horse lost in joust" thing? You can always have the Knight/Cavalier roll d10 at character creation with 1-2 (or whatever) indicating "no horse".
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 22, 2012 19:53:08 GMT -6
I would just like a tiny bit of something for the Knight. How about a once a day "Inspire" that starts as +to hit for those around him, gains +1 to Saving Throws next level, +1,2,3,4 Temporary Hit Points the following levels. Is it too much? I want them to be different in such a way that they are attractive without gimping a fighter. A thought: add another plus per level, and another "inspire" per combat level (i. e. every three levels).
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