monk
Level 5 Thaumaturgist
Posts: 237
|
Post by monk on Oct 11, 2012 11:25:08 GMT -6
On the subject of magic scrolls, I've always thought the need for Read Magic was a bit of a slip up in the rules as written. After all, Thieves get the ability to read/use magic scrolls at level 10, but never have the ability to cast Read Magic. As others have noted, we always just ignored that requirement.
|
|
|
Post by kesher on Oct 11, 2012 12:27:35 GMT -6
f=15&t=34964 3. Religiously use morale checks. Remember that monsters have to make a morale check when the FIRST of their number is slain. Thus a group of 6 orcs might run away after only 1 orc is slain. 4. Also religiously use the reaction table. Most monsters most of the time will NOT attack. I don't care if their alignment is chaotic. Check-out that table. You will see that, if the players want to survive, they can avoid combat most of the time that they encounter monsters. Yes, yes, YES! Morale if actually used as written really changes the entire game. Absolutely, and I myself have all too often forgotten that very point, as well as using reactions. Uncertain reactions then actually generates more possibilities for role-playing, which is never a bad thing!
|
|
|
Post by waysoftheearth on Oct 11, 2012 18:08:54 GMT -6
Unfortunately, a lot of players attack first and ask questions later. This behaviour not only denies them the opportunity to avoid combat, but also denies they any opportunity to gain followers to their cause.
Another excellent option that players very typically ignore is the possibility of fighting to subdue rather than to kill. Not only can it be easier to subdue than it is to kill (possibly requiring only one hit rather than many hits), a subdued enemy is forced to serve its subduer -- at least for a time.
|
|
|
Post by blackbarn on Oct 18, 2012 3:59:50 GMT -6
How many monsters are you including per encounter? I find that the hit dice don't matter as much as the number of opponents, when it comes to lethality. Each enemy faced gets an attack, and at first level that is a chance to kill a PC. Try to keep the number of monsters per encounter down to help the PCs out.
The main problem seems to be they are just learning how to play tactically as opposed to run in and kill. The common belief among more modern gamers also seems to be that the newer games are more sophisticated but the older games are just about killing and looting. It's not true in practice, though! The further you go back the more you have to be on your toes and avoid battles when you can, and learn to flee when you are outmatched. It's ALL about getting the treasure and escaping alive, not fighting everything you come across.
Speaking of which, I seem to recall someone did an analysis of the treasures in B/X and found that overall it was severely lacking to the point where it takes a ridiculous amount of time to level as you go on. Not sure how that would work at first level.
Also, how many PCs in your group? If you are dividing that recommended treasure up into many shares, that's a poor amount per character and will exacerbate the problem of not enough treasure.
Good luck!
|
|
|
Post by Fireangel on Oct 21, 2012 19:34:03 GMT -6
Let me tell y'all about a D&D game gone horribly, horribly wrong.
Today.
So there we are, a few of us old-timers reminiscing about the good ol'days whith some young'uns who cut their teeth with V:tM, 3e and later, when someone spots my Modlvay "red book" behind the glass of my bookcase; "Whoa! that's old school gaming right there! Can we play that?"
We look at each other, smile and break out the dice... the old-school hi-impacts (and wooden d6's) from my dice collection, some loose-leaf filler paper from my grandkid's homework stash and a bunch of #2 pencils; we were going REALLY old school for the full-on BASIC D&D experience.
Since I am DMing our current campaign, our second most experienced DM took over; stating quite boldly as he held the single rulebook in his hand that we would play strictly according to the rules... with only the optional rules in the book being acceptable, to which we all eagerly agreed as we grabbed dice, pencils and paper.
We laughed most of the afternoon as we rolled up the charaters using the straight 3d6... in SIWDCCh order... no rerolls... then selecting class based on the abilities rolled... only then adjusting the scores as permitted to each class.
Yeah; we rolled a bunch of shockingly wussy characters by modern standards, but overall a pretty good group; I lucked out and rolled a whopping 16 INT... next highest score was a 12 CHA, so I'm happy with a Magic-User, sacrificing two points from my 11 WIS to pump up my INT to 17. I choose to randomly roll for the single spell I'm alloted and score with Shield; perfect, since my 2 hp are not very encouraging.
Along with my MU, we get an Elf (in Plate and shield, of course, choosing Charm Person as his one spell), a Dwarf... who got to pump her STR from the rolled 16 to 18 by dropping her INT from 13 to 9..., a Halfling, who put his 13 DEX (after pumping from WIS) to good use with a shortbow, becoming our lone dedicated ranged combatant, a Thief and a whopping two Clerics; one with plate + shield.
Note the lack of fighters, but considering that besides the Dwarf, the next highest STR was the Elf's 14, followed by a 10 in one cleric and the thief, we thought that we might be able to make do in the first couple games... boy, were we wrong... but I'm getting ahead of myself.
After rolling up the PCs and their gold, we pool our resources to get the best possible equipment for individual party members, with the least amount of redundancy on miscellaneous gear. We were very well equipped and ready for anything... or so we thought.
The DM asks me if I have any old D&D modules easily accessible and grins like a kid in a candy store when I reach for by beat-up, taped together, thoroughly annotated B2 Keep on the Borderlands, still sporting mustard stains, slim jim fat stains and smelling of old cigarette smoke; he tells us to get lunch while he reviews (not forgetting to bring him a MacBK combo AND doritos n' soda as tribute) so we could play all afternoon and into the night.
The time comes; all eigh of us sit around the table, laden with our traditional snacks; corn nuts, beef jerky, doritos, jordan almonds, mountain dew and cola. We get comfy, put our chosen minis on the table (selected mostly from my collection) and begin the game.
It starts great; we get to the keep, meet people, shmooze, yap, learn rumours, get standard rations for three days, water down some wine for our wineskins and head out to The Caves of Chaos (registered trademark).
We make a very cautious approach to the first cave, set our "enter a corridor" marching order and start to go in...
When eight kobolds jump out of the trees above us (DM rolled 1 for their presence) and catch us unawares (we rolled ONE on the surprise check), the distance is all of four feet (yes, by roll), so they attack with impunity... killing the thief and one cleric, and injuring the halfling and my MU (who dodged a bullet in that the kobold did just one point of damage).
First full combat round... we lose initiative; the kobolds finish off the halfling, miss several others (including my MU), and injure the Dwarf and the Elf, who in turn kill two kobolds; I manage to cast shield and get into a good position to protect the others from any attackers coming out of the cave. The kobolds pass their morale check with a perfect snake-eyes roll.
Second combat round; Elf player says that HE will roll initiative; not with the cheap plastic or wooden dice but with (he pulls a die from his pocket) his GEN-U-INE stone amethyst d6; he places a legal pad on the table to protect the die as it rolls, makes a grand gesture and rolls... a one. DM rolls the most beat-up wooden die in the tray; it came from a cheap parchis set back when I was in grade school in the early 70's and still has a few flecks of its original red paint; the six is still very well contrasted on the legal pad... especially amongst hoots and laughs from all present.
So we lose the initiative; how bad could it be?
The kobolds maneuver to engage the rest of the party, killing the second cleric and dropping the Dwarf down to 1 hp and injuring the elf, who kills another kobold... the other kobolds roll 4 for morale; pressing the fight into the next round and screaming for reinforcements from inside the cave.
Third round, we FINALLY get the initiative, but choose a fighting retreat, unfortunately abandoning our fallen comerades... but the kobolds press forward; Dwarf misses, elf misses... both die at the hands of the kobolds, two kobolds are injured, but not killed (one by my MU's thrown dagger). My MU runs for her life full-tilt (best thing abour magic-users... no armour means 120' movement)... the sole survivor of the entire party... a party destroyed before it even entered the first cave!
Rest of the evening was spend rolling replacement characters... I'm the only one who'll be using my PC from this game... to face some now very well-equipped kobolds...
Though shocked at the lethality, everybody is enthused for next weekend's session.
Yeah... we're funny that way...
|
|
|
Post by waysoftheearth on Oct 21, 2012 19:57:04 GMT -6
That sounds awesome Fireangel, thanks for sharing Dare I say, next time the players will be sending one or two scouts ahead while the main group hangs back to cover them..? And every tree will be checked for kobold ambushes ;D
|
|
|
Post by blackbarn on Oct 21, 2012 20:05:16 GMT -6
Exalt for that story, Fireangel!
|
|
|
Post by Fireangel on Oct 21, 2012 20:23:28 GMT -6
Dare I say, next time the players will be sending one or two scouts ahead while the main group hangs back to cover them..? And every tree will be checked for kobold ambushes ;D Just one archer in the group, thief has 3 hp, elf and halfling in metal armour... Next group corrects these flaws. ;D
|
|
|
Post by talysman on Oct 21, 2012 21:25:01 GMT -6
Fireangel's post made me catch an older comment from monk: On the subject of magic scrolls, I've always thought the need for Read Magic was a bit of a slip up in the rules as written. After all, Thieves get the ability to read/use magic scrolls at level 10, but never have the ability to cast Read Magic. As others have noted, we always just ignored that requirement. The way I interpret it is that Read Magic isn't necessary if an M-U has time and money for research. It lets you find out what a scroll or magical inscription does RIGHT NOW, instead of after a minimum of one week. Of course, I run OD&D instead of B/X, so I imagine that interpretation doesn't really mesh with the B/X rules as written.
|
|
|
Post by Fireangel on Oct 22, 2012 10:55:13 GMT -6
Fireangel's post made me catch an older comment from monk: The way I interpret it is that Read Magic isn't necessary if an M-U has time and money for research. It lets you find out what a scroll or magical inscription does RIGHT NOW, instead of after a minimum of one week. Of course, I run OD&D instead of B/X, so I imagine that interpretation doesn't really mesh with the B/X rules as written. B/X's B49 makes it clear that you do need Read Magic: "[arcane spell scrolls] are written in a magical language and require that the spellcaster use a ReadMagic spell in order to understand the scroll so that it may be used later." The wording is different in X48, but the intent is still crystal clear; M-U/Elf scrolls are useless without Read Magic.
|
|
|
Post by talysman on Oct 22, 2012 18:28:49 GMT -6
Fireangel's post made me catch an older comment from monk: The way I interpret it is that Read Magic isn't necessary if an M-U has time and money for research. It lets you find out what a scroll or magical inscription does RIGHT NOW, instead of after a minimum of one week. Of course, I run OD&D instead of B/X, so I imagine that interpretation doesn't really mesh with the B/X rules as written. B/X's B49 makes it clear that you do need Read Magic: "[arcane spell scrolls] are written in a magical language and require that the spellcaster use a ReadMagic spell in order to understand the scroll so that it may be used later." The wording is different in X48, but the intent is still crystal clear; M-U/Elf scrolls are useless without Read Magic. Yeah, I think even Holmes had drifted that direction. Definitely AD&D did. But the original wording of Read Magic just makes it sound like a form of emergency scroll/item activation. The distinction is mainly important when you start to consider whether spell books require Read Magic, too. In AD&D, if a Magic-User loses their spell books and doesn't have Read Magic memorized, they're screwed.
|
|
naleax
Level 1 Medium
Posts: 20
|
Post by naleax on Oct 23, 2012 15:24:19 GMT -6
Speaking of which, I seem to recall someone did an analysis of the treasures in B/X and found that overall it was severely lacking to the point where it takes a ridiculous amount of time to level as you go on. Not sure how that would work at first level. Also, how many PCs in your group? If you are dividing that recommended treasure up into many shares, that's a poor amount per character and will exacerbate the problem of not enough treasure. Good luck! I can confirm this. My dungeon was initially designed using the Moldvay basic rules. When i calculated the treasure totals spread across 100 rooms it wasn't even enough to level a party of 4 adventurers i.e. fighter, cleric, thief, magic-user. In effect i started multiplying all treasure totals by 5. Lets face it the party rarely collects all the treasure from a dungeon level. Multiplying treasure by 5 at least on the 1st level seemed to give better results and help speed the characters along in leveling after a few session. Also, I allowed the players to take their level 2 HD at 1st level, but i would not do this again. In B/X, at 2nd level that's about all you get after leveling, so once the PCs leveled they were very disappointed that they didn't get any other benefits. I had a long talk with my players and reached out to them individually by email trying to find what they didn't like about the game. What it boiled down to was several things. First, and foremost was Save or Die! They definitely did not like that even though their were clear warnings in the few encounters that included a save or die situation. Second, they did not like the treasure = xp. It made the game very non heroic for them and treasure as xp was causing many to be self serving and greedy. Lastly, the fragility of the characters was causing the game to slow to a snails pace because they were so worried about dying that they over analyzed every situation/encounter. Ultimately, our group plays once every two weeks for 4-5 hours. Most of the players want to blow off steam, roll dice and be heroic for that short time. B/X (as written) turned out to be a bad fit. Many have never played this type of game before, most having grown up on 2nd edition or 3.5. Thats all they've been playing for years. If i we're to do it over again, i would do a couple of things differently. I would add the following house rule to the B/X rules and nothing else. This would solve many issues for my players. Taking a queue from Savage Worlds... "Every player gets three bennies at the beginning of each session. You can spend a benny to re roll an unfavorable dice roll, or to avoid damage. Failed that save, spend a benny and re roll it. Missed that critical attack, spend a benny and re roll it. Spend a benny to avoid damage received from any one creature or trap." This one simple house rule solves all the problems we've run into with B/X: Squishy low level characters, Save or die, Trap death, etc. And, it puts the onus on the players to get themselves out of bad situations by using bennies. I would go so far as to add a second house rule and change B/X experience from treasure = xp to something else that doesn't promote greed = levels. I definately wouldn't do monster = xp, but something that promotes exploration and overcoming obstacles. We've taken a break from B/X dungeon crawling for now and i will leave it up to the players if we return to the campaign. I hope we do at some point. Naleax p.s. One major help to my game was this thread. I turned the players on to it after creating it and by reading it many of them changed their play styles based on the advice in this thread. So thanks a million to everyone who replied, it really did help a lot.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 23, 2012 15:49:21 GMT -6
I would go so far as to add a second house rule and change B/X experience from treasure = xp to something else that doesn't promote greed = levels. I definately wouldn't do monster = xp, but something that promotes exploration and overcoming obstacles. Oddly enough, gold = XP was intended as exactly that: to promote exploration. OD&D was never intended as a game of combat, it more a game of exploration and overcoming obstacles (as you succinctly put it). Gary figured the truest measure of success as an explorer would be the amount of treasure recovered without dying, and it seems to have worked pretty well overall. Combat used up precious resources and depleted player strength and was thus to be avoided. And, as Mike Mornard (who played in Gary's game will tell you) greed will get you killed. The clever players would avoid combat and save their strength the big, bad leader ... then kill him and take his stuff. Keep in mind, please: I'm not tell you you're doing it wrong. I am offering a different viewpoint. I don't see gold = xp as promoting greed, I see it as one measure (you may find one you like better) of success for a band of adventurers. edit to repair quote tags
|
|
|
Post by Fireangel on Oct 23, 2012 16:46:34 GMT -6
Y'all that think that in B/X gp=xp is the only way to do things, check out page B22:
"Experience points are also given for monsters killed or overcome by magic, fighting or wits."
This is followed by a table... did y'all know kobolds are 5 xp a pop? ;D
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 23, 2012 17:03:44 GMT -6
Y'all that think that in B/X gp=xp is the only way to do things, check out page B22: I, at least, never said that. Though I do believe a strong argument can be made that recovered treasure is the primary source of XP. Battling monsters gives little value for time and resources expended, this is why so many OD&D veterans avoid wandering monsters rather than fighting them. The return simply isn't worth the investment ... and greed (chasing that paltry bit of XP wandering monsters yield) will get you killed.
|
|
|
Post by blackbarn on Oct 26, 2012 20:42:45 GMT -6
Naleax: One thing that we have tried in B/X is an XP for exploration system. Basically, the PCs earn XP for discovering new land regions, dungeon rooms, etc. You can set the rewards based on how hard the place is to find, how important it seems, or whatever. It worked well for our group in a campaign where recovery of treasure was not the main point.
|
|
naleax
Level 1 Medium
Posts: 20
|
Post by naleax on Oct 29, 2012 11:43:21 GMT -6
Naleax: One thing that we have tried in B/X is an XP for exploration system. Basically, the PCs earn XP for discovering new land regions, dungeon rooms, etc. You can set the rewards based on how hard the place is to find, how important it seems, or whatever. It worked well for our group in a campaign where recovery of treasure was not the main point. Originally i was thinking of rewarding based on how much was accomplished in a session, but your idea is better. Especially if the players realize quality of exploration over quantity. Thanks Black barn, definitely writing this one down in the notebook.
|
|