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Post by leicamaster on Jun 4, 2012 8:27:57 GMT -6
Hello everyone,
Is there anyway to tone down this spell? It is way to powerful (at least I think so)...
Any suggestions?
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Post by owlorbs on Jun 4, 2012 9:03:38 GMT -6
Just curious, why would you want to diminish the (arguably) one powerful 1st level spell?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 4, 2012 9:12:08 GMT -6
Yeah, it's been my experience that sleep is not overpowered. It's a potential 'Win one combat' against low level types, but that's it.
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Post by Finarvyn on Jun 4, 2012 9:13:42 GMT -6
Sleep has long been considered to be overpowered compared to other level-1 spells. I'm not sure it's a problem, actually, but since many think so it's worth discussion.
One could make the saving throw easier. Add the defender's level to their die roll to save vs sleep, that kind of thing.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 4, 2012 10:00:21 GMT -6
It could have very long casting time. Magic-User would need to be protected for few rounds or cast it while hiding.
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Post by aldarron on Jun 4, 2012 10:25:29 GMT -6
Yes. Here how it is handled in CoZ.
"It takes 2-8 minutes to take full effect on each creature. Each Creature affected by the spell gets a Saving Throw to resist the effect. "
That rule derives from the 2-8 turns listed in Holmes, and based on the idea that the spell causes those effected to become sleepy more or less naturally doze off. There is nothing in the OD&D description suggesting the spell is instantaneous or, for that matter that it is anything other than a nap from which those affected could be easily awakened.
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Post by Morandir on Jun 4, 2012 10:27:18 GMT -6
Fin, Sleep doesn't allow a saving throw (not mentioned at all in the 3LBBs, but clarified in Greyhawk), so allowing one would be the first step if you wanted to tone it down, I think.
Another would be to have it affect a smaller number of creatures. You could use 1d8/1d6/1 instead of the usual 2d8/2d6/1d6/1.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 4, 2012 10:39:05 GMT -6
Sleep has long been considered to be overpowered compared to other level-1 spells. I'm not sure it's a problem, actually, but since many think so it's worth discussion. One could make the saving throw easier. Add the defender's level to their die roll to save vs sleep, that kind of thing. I agree it isn't a problem, given how magic works btb. Regarding the saving throw, is there one? I've always read "... the spell always affects up to the number of creatures determined by the dice ..." to mean there was no save. Edit to add: I see Morandir beat me to the punch. Carry on!
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Post by leicamaster on Jun 4, 2012 10:51:01 GMT -6
I will just make monsters roll saving throws and if they are affected it takes 1-2 to rounds for them to fall asleep.
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monk
Level 5 Thaumaturgist
Posts: 237
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Post by monk on Jun 4, 2012 12:13:52 GMT -6
I don't have a ton of experience, but I've found that it isn't a problem in play, even though it looks out of whack when you're reading the description. The MU can really only knock out one monster/monster group, then still has to sneak back out of the dungeon with 3 hp. He may have owned a group of orcs, but then he might get killed by a lone stirge!
I also like the idea of the MUs small amount of magic being pretty kick-butt. I like a group of armored fighting men still being kinda scared of the skinny, weird guy in the robe. "You never know what will happen when he starts his mumbling..."
Charm Person, according to the LBBs is pretty badass, as well.
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Post by waysoftheearth on Jun 4, 2012 16:50:13 GMT -6
I don't have a problem with sleep. I think of it as a double-edged sword because the magic must always affect the indicated number of creatures.
I read this as meaning it affects friend and foe alike, starting with those nearest the target creature and working its way outward. It could possibly even affect the magic-user himself if he is not careful.
In terms of limiting the power of the spell, how about giving it a relatively short range? How about making it a fitful, light sleep rather than a deep slumber? The noise of a melee, or shouting comrades (for example) would possibly wake those affected in each subsequent round.
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Post by mgtremaine on Jun 4, 2012 18:05:12 GMT -6
Bah.... In our days we got slept and our throats cut and we liked it! We Loved It! -Mike
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Post by Zenopus on Jun 5, 2012 5:40:52 GMT -6
The lack of a save for Sleep has always bothered me. It's a great "Get out of Jail Free" card for low-level parties, but rarely used in return by DMs against them, probably because of the high chance of an instant TPK.
Based on the Vol 3 Wandering Monster Tables, a 1st level dungeon should have encounters with Conjurers (Lvl 3 M-U), Theurgists (Lvl 4), Thaumaturguists (Lvl 5), Magicians (Lvl 6) and Enchanters (Lvl 7) at frequencies of 3.2%, 3.2%, 1.6%, 1.6% and 1.6%, respectively. That's more than 11% of wandering monster encounters. Note these are encounters with a group of multiple spell casters. Given the usefulness of Sleep against the other wandering monsters on that level, one would expect at the minimum that at least one M-U per group would have memorized it. Sleep should affect 2-16 1st level characters. All it takes is surprise or an initiative win by the M-Us, plus a good roll on 2d8, to put most or all of a 1st level party to sleep instantly without save.
Edit: Revised to include Thaumaturgists.
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Post by waysoftheearth on Jun 5, 2012 6:21:04 GMT -6
Men and Magic does not state a duration for sleep, and nor does Greyhawk (but GH does state explicitly that no saving throw is allowed).
The referee of an OD&D game is therefore free to rule the duration at 1 combat round if desired, or 1-6 rounds, a turn, a day, or whatever else he considers "right".
In later editions Holmes states the duration of sleep as 4-16 turns, but immediately after restates it as 2-8 turns. These "turns" seem likely to mean "combat turns" (aka "melee rounds") as the modern terminology hadn't evolved yet. FWIW -- the AD&D PHB subsequently set the duration of sleep at 5 round per caster level.
So it seems if you want a "balanced" OD&D sleep spell, you could set an appropriately brief duration and see how it goes...
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Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2012 9:14:48 GMT -6
I'm very, very nervous about changing the Sleep spell. Without it, a dozen orcs have a strong chance of a TPK against your typical first level adventuring party.
Also, whaddaya mean referees don't use it against players? Like fun! There's a reason that "Men" are the most dreaded monster encounter there is.
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Post by Mushgnome on Jun 5, 2012 9:17:31 GMT -6
It doesn't have to be a TPK. Maybe the wandering magic users put the PCs to sleep and then, instead of killing them, take them prisoner, strip them of their gear, and bring them to their lair on dungeon level 2...
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Post by cooper on Jun 5, 2012 9:19:00 GMT -6
personally, I'd beef up supplement I magic missile to the power of sleep and charm person, rather than toning down sleep. If you are only going to get a single spell to memorize, it should be a game changer.
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Post by starcraft on Jun 5, 2012 9:56:23 GMT -6
As I pointed out in the Holmes section below, I just began a new campaign using B2 and I have actually run into this. Keep in mind, this will be tinged by Holmes and may not marry up 100% with LBB rules...
Sleep IS far more powerful than any other 1st level offensive spell. Magic Missile - a long standing fav 1st level spell in D&D of all flavors - pales by comparison. Even with Holmes 2-7 damage (later changed to 2-5 in other editions) the damage averages out to 4.5 points. My group playing B2 had their first encounter with a pack of wolves in the wilderness. I use d6 for monster HD and give wolves 1+1. The four wolves had 6,5,4, and 3 hp (rolled, not assigned). There was a 50% chance that a magic users ONLY spell of the day would fail to kill one of the wolves if he rolled average (4.5) damage.
Sleep OTOH is instant win depending on what rules you are using. Holmes 2-16 is an average of 9 creatures of 1 or 1+1 HD. In that scenario (the one my players happened to be in) the sleep spell wins the day - period. Likewise, if an ogre were encountered - 4HD or so depending on what version of the rules you are using, magic missile is all but useless compared to sleep.
So is it overpowered? Yeah, probably. The thing is, it is also married to a system where the low level caster is a 'one and done' one trick pony.
I agree with cooper that if you are going to limit the casters to their one spell - it should have a pretty decent effect..
or...
What I did in my game was tone down sleep by allowing a saving throw - BUT... I house ruled some things to help out the one trick pony a bit.
Firstly, a magic user with a 15+ intelligence can memorize 1 additional spell per day - it can be of any level he can cast, but only 1 spell. Also, any magic user with an 18 intelligence gains a second 'bonus spell'. Keep in mind, I do 3d6 assign as desired fro stats - your chances of an 18 are pretty d**n slim.
Second, I allow magic users to memorize a number of extra spells equal to their intelligence - 10. Note that is not CAST that many. Just memorize. So a magic user with a 13 intelligence can memorize sleep, magic missile and charm person at 1st level. He can only cast ONE of them, but he has the flexibility to pick from three.
Finally, I allow any weapon and armor a magic user wishes to use. However, a magic user still CANNOT cast spells while wearing armor.
Anyway, a bit off topic, but the point is, I think the sleep spell's power was a reaction by designers to the need for a magic user to have some game changer to call on. In the end, I think it was too tough - especially the 2-16 creatures effect.
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monk
Level 5 Thaumaturgist
Posts: 237
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Post by monk on Jun 5, 2012 10:03:46 GMT -6
It doesn't have to be a TPK. Maybe the wandering magic users put the PCs to sleep and then, instead of killing them, take them prisoner, strip them of their gear, and bring them to their lair on dungeon level 2... This is a good point. It could definitely lead to those situations that Holmes was wanting to simulate, like when Conan or John Carter get thumped on the head and wake up in some antediluvian/martian slavepit. (Dragon #52, p17) Also, there ought to be some possibility that the monster MU has already used his sleep spell for the day. I mean, he has been wandering around in the dungeon just like the PCs.
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Post by maxvale76 on Jun 5, 2012 11:30:12 GMT -6
Hey there...just wanted to throw my 2 cents into the great 'Sleep' debate....
I too think that Sleep is an overpowered 1st Level spell; but I think a couple of things can be done to mitigate it.
(Please note, I do not yet own the LBBs; so I don't know what the rules are in those books)
First thing; I'd give all targets of a Sleep spell a Saving Throw vs. Spells; while I don't know what the Tables in the LBBs give monsters for Saving Throws; I'm guessing for 1-4 HD creatures the numbers are probably all in the 12-16 or so range. In other words; every creature has a better than 50% chance of falling asleep. This is still, in my opinion, pretty d**n powerful for a 1st Level Spell!
Second: I'd say all creatures that fail thier Saving Throws spend at least 1 Turn (10 rounds) asleep if not prodded awake. If you'd like to use a more random die-roll method to determine how long they sleep and/or have Tougher creatures sleep shorter times than weaker ones; cool.
Third: I'd have the Level fo the Wizard vs. the HD of the targets interact with a Saving Throw modifier....off the top of my head; why not say; Caster's Level - Target's HD (ignoring pluses; i.e. a 2+1 HD creature is 2 HD for this purpose). The resulting number is the + or - number to the Saving Throw of the creature. (With or without the caveat that a natural 20 always succeeds and a natural 1 always fails)
This way; a 1st Level MU can cast sleep at a party of Orcs; they have no modifier to thier Saving Throws (1st Level - 1 HD = 0); and he has a pretty d**n good chance of affecting a significant number of them...though, with enough randomness to make the spell INTERESTING and DIFFERENT each time its cast.
Then again; if that same 1st Level MU casts the spell at a 4HD Ogre; the Ogre gets a +3 bonus to his Saving Throw...making it a much less certain encounter.
However; then the Mage becomes a bad-ass 9th level MU; a pack of Orcs are subtracting 8 from thier Saving Throws. (9th Level - 1 HD)
Finally; even if the targets pass thier Saving Throw; they lose thier actions that round as they blink themselves back to full awareness. This makes the Spell STILL usefull when a serious threat approaches; yet not overpowering so; in my opinion.
Thoughts?
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Post by starcraft on Jun 5, 2012 12:05:15 GMT -6
Big thumbs up on the lost action for the round while they fight off the effects - I really like it!
I'm also all in favor of the +/- to the save based on level/HD disparity.
One of the things I have been trying to do in my campaign has been to 'adjust' some spells. Certain effects like dancing lights and light just don't seem to 'stack up' as full fledged spells. I really think the idea (thought not always the execution) of cantrips in later editions was trying to fix this.
Likewise, every magic user in my game world can cast detect magic and read magic everyday for free for every level of experience he/she has. It just gives them a more 'mystic' quality IMO.
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Post by leicamaster on Jun 5, 2012 16:16:32 GMT -6
Thanks for all the help people.
I'm going to make monsters do saving throws and if they fail their throw then they fall asleep for 1d4 turn(s). Monsters that pass their saving throw are a bit dazed for that turn and lose their actions.
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Post by talysman on Jun 5, 2012 16:20:42 GMT -6
I'm very, very nervous about changing the Sleep spell. Without it, a dozen orcs have a strong chance of a TPK against your typical first level adventuring party. Also, whaddaya mean referees don't use it against players? Like fun! There's a reason that "Men" are the most dreaded monster encounter there is. Maybe not the Sleep spell itself, but I thought sleep gas traps were pretty standard. Sleep is basically what a DM uses instead of deadly poison... which means that monsters usually don't slaughter PCs in their sleep, because if *that* is what they wanted, why wouldn't they use poison gas?
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Post by waysoftheearth on Jun 5, 2012 17:24:30 GMT -6
I'm very, very nervous about changing the Sleep spell. Without it, a dozen orcs have a strong chance of a TPK against your typical first level adventuring party. Depending on the size of the player party, a dozen Orcs could be a genuine challenge, for sure. If the players are wont to rush right in to melee them on equal footing, they have thrown away their best chance of success and risk losses or a TPK. If, on the other hand, they employ clever strategies, the players should have a very reasonable chance of success without needing a sleep spell. I.e., they could draw the Orcs into narrow passage where their numbers don't matter. They could puncture them with missile fire from afar then flee. They could set fire to the lair then hold a door fast against them while they burn. They could lead them into an ambush or trap set for the purpose. They could offer them food, beer or gold to come into their service. They could frighten them off with bravado, or some ribald pantomime. They could rout them with a cattle stampede. They could cause a rockfall. Just for starters... I'm sure players could come up with endless ideas I haven't ever thought of! If they want to survive, players should only enter a fight when they have better than even chances of victory. Otherwise, they should use more ingenious methods. Sleep is one of them, sure, but it isn't the only one ;D
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Post by maxvale76 on Jun 5, 2012 18:02:49 GMT -6
...and always remember a tactic that frequently seems to never occur to PCs.....you can always RUN FOR YOUR LIFE!!!!
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Post by Zenopus on Jun 5, 2012 19:32:03 GMT -6
Men and Magic does not state a duration for sleep, and nor does Greyhawk (but GH does state explicitly that no saving throw is allowed). FWIW, Swords & Spells has the duration as 4-16 turns in the Spell Chart on page 12 (which references D&D for effects). The two different times in Holmes possibly arose when someone edited the "Duration" to reflect Swords & Spells but missed the separate listing in the description. The turns in Holmes should either be 10 min (non-combat turns) or 100 sec (combat turns, which are 10 combat rounds of 10 sec each). Holmes never clearly states whether spell durations are shifted during combat. However, even if they are, and we take the shorter duration for sleep (2-8 turns), that's still 20 combat rounds at a minimum.
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Post by Zenopus on Jun 5, 2012 20:49:29 GMT -6
It doesn't have to be a TPK. Maybe the wandering magic users put the PCs to sleep and then, instead of killing them, take them prisoner, strip them of their gear, and bring them to their lair on dungeon level 2... This is a good point. It could definitely lead to those situations that Holmes was wanting to simulate, like when Conan or John Carter get thumped on the head and wake up in some antediluvian/martian slavepit. (Dragon #52, p17) Also, there ought to be some possibility that the monster MU has already used his sleep spell for the day. I mean, he has been wandering around in the dungeon just like the PCs. Those are good possibilities. Also, the MUs will not always be hostile to the party, since they can be any alignment, and can be subject to reaction rolls. But when the rules specify that more than 1 in 10 wandering monsters encounters are with MUs, there should still be a fair amount that are hostile, have their spells memorized, and will sleep and then kill the party at first opportunity. Particularly if the party is in turn killing monsters every time they put them to sleep.
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Post by aldarron on Jun 7, 2012 8:41:45 GMT -6
It's been pointed out a couple times but, judging from many of the posts, seems to keep being missed.
There is nothing in the OD&D spell description to suggest the effect of "Sleep" is anything other than normal sleep.
So, your party "sleeps" a half dozen orcs. Maybe they could try to sneak past them, or maybe some genius decides to slit a throat. Any noise of significance should immediately awaken the rest of the orcs. They are asleep, not dead.
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Post by aldarron on Jun 7, 2012 8:50:27 GMT -6
As I pointed out in the Holmes section below, I just began a new campaign using B2 and I have actually run into this. Keep in mind, this will be tinged by Holmes and may not marry up 100% with LBB rules... So is it overpowered? Yeah, probably. The thing is, it is also married to a system where the low level caster is a 'one and done' one trick pony. Off topic, I know, but no MU need be a one trick pony, especially in Holmes. Sure 1st level MU can only memorize one spell. So what? They can cast an unlimited number of spells of any level from scrolls. Any MU worth their salt would be carrying a fair few spells on their person, not simply relying on the one they have learned to hold in memory.
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Post by Ynas Midgard on Jun 7, 2012 9:33:02 GMT -6
Although I might not say anything new, I still decided to write this post just to throw in my two cents. First, Sleep has is not that powerful because, as it has been stated, merely causes its targets to fall asleep, thus they may wake up should the party make much noise; and it must also affect exactly the number of creatures rolled on the dice (thus one's allies may also fall asleep). However, there are several ways to tone the spell a bit down: - targets are allowed to make a Saving Throw
- affects fewer creature
- its effect is not instantaneous
- casting takes more time
- the caster falls asleep as well
- it is a second level spell...
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