4ed must be better than 0ed, right?

[chronoplasm]

Thanks sternum. I really hate these edition wars.
I can't see any side that is right or wrong; only two sides that are equally wrong and equally right in different ways.

All the editions have their good points and their bad points.

The Bad:

• Rules in 4E are overly complicated; rules in OD&D are overly vague.
  
• Most of OD&D's artwork looks like it was drawn by a spastic preschool kid; most of 4E's artwork is badly proportioned Rob Liefield knockoffs with female cleavage-windows in otherwise full-plate armor, and pouches everywhere where pouches should not be!
  
• In OD&D you can get killed by a stiff breeze; in 4E you have to endure endless hours of grind.
  
• 4E is a thinly veiled marketing ploy; OD&D is racist and misogynistic.
  

The Good:

• In OD&D you get to be a gritty, down-to-earth, and relatable average Joe; in 4E you get to be a super-hero!
  
• Artwork in OD&D has a simplistic charm; a lot of artwork in 4E is just cool.
  
• OD&D is rough, but simple; 4E is complex, but polished.
  

I'm sure that this is going to incite a lot of outrage, but I'm not trying to troll or anything, I'm just trying to look at this objectively. 4E and OD&D are both equally good in different ways; it's just a matter of personal preference and perspective.

[Zulgyan]

IMO, comparing 4E and OD&D is similar to compare bananas and oranges. Both under the label "fruit" but completely different. There is simply no point at all in comparing.

4E and OD&D: Different authors, different inspirations, different assumptions, different historic and social context, different aims, different public, different reality in many many aspects.

The only thing they have in common is that it's called D&D and some very very abstract concepts, like levels, races, classes, ability scores, that are present in many many games that are not D&D.

IMO there is not a single objective comparison to be made (and I'm not a relativist, personally). In this discussion, all is matter of preference, and preference alone.

For example, I like OD&D for being overly vague, that you can get killed by a stiff breeze if you screw up..

So, why not just play each on their own merits, as different fun things?! You don't compare baseball to soccer, skying to fishing. You can like all, some or none of them. They are all different "sports". Ok, there are many different RPG out there too, types of music, art and movies too. These discussions are irrelevant, and I don't see anything useful out of them.

"Cars rule"
"No, motorbikes"
"Cars dude"
"I say motorbikes"
"But Cars X and Y"
"No, Cars Z and X, bike A and C".

"Metal rules"
"No, reggae"
"Metal dude"
"I say reggae"
"But Metal X and Y"
"No, Metal Z and X, reggae A and C".

And so on, a fruitless discussion, that is the source of nothing but pointless fights.

[Deleted]

May 18, 2009 23:26:11 GMT -6 chronoplasm said:

OD&D is racist and misogynistic.

I had no disagreement with your general line of thinking until I read this. I can make assumptions as to why you think this way, but I thought it more respectful to ask, instead.

So if (and only if) you feel comfortable discussing this issue, would you please defend these two assertions?

[vladtolenkov]

We played a few sessions of 4E last summer after it first came out. I bought a bunch of dungeon tiles and D&D plastic minis. I dig 4E's tactical "boardgame" aspect, but I'm less enamored of it for campaign play.

I'm not sad I bought the dungeon tiles and minis though 'cause I can use those with just about any edition. We later played a game or two of OD&D and Moldvay Basic using my tiles.

[thegreyelf]

It's true as a set of tactical miniatures rules, 4e is well done...however, if I'm going to play D&D miniatures, I actually prefer the latest edition of Dungeons & Dragons Miniatures, which is cheaper than paying all that money for the 3 core rulebooks.

Also, I'm still not convinced that D&D's miniatures rules are better than Savage Worlds.

[kenmeister]

May 18, 2009 21:00:29 GMT -6 Finarvyn said:

We've already got chronoplasm nervous about the tension, stories of people throwing barbs at jamesm for his blog, and poor greyelf has stories of 4E stalkers at game cons.

Let's not allow that to happen here.

Fin has spoken.

Though I'm glad that james and greyelf posted those happenings, because I had no idea this sort of thing was going on and it is really thought-provoking.

The only glimpse of this I've had was when I was talking to a co-worker who recently tried out 4E and he said that he hoped that 4E would unify gamers.

[chgowiz]

May 14, 2009 13:28:42 GMT -6 thegreyelf said:

But I agree about the tension between communities. Because of the violent, rabid, defensive reactions I've gotten from 4e fans for not liking the game (including being told I was playing it wrong, my DM sucked, and actually being tracked down in person at a con just to be shown the light of 4e) I can pretty much guarantee I'll never buy into that game.

I went searching for this after hearing Fin mention it. You're kidding... someone wanted to convert you at a con? That's crazy! How did you handle it?

[thegreyelf]

It happened after I posted (on RPGNet) my initial distaste for 4e after a playtest session in my Sunday group. I was dogpiled on RPGNet--told my DM sucked, we were clearly playing wrong, you name it, all the cliche uncalled for attacks.

That year at Gen Con, one of the posters from that thread showed up at the RPGNet meetup specifically looking for me. I was at a business meeting--he happened to ask my girlfriend and my buddy Taejas about me while trolling for my whereabouts.

Anyway, I get back from the meeting, am hanging out at the meetup, enjoying myself, when he comes over and introduces himself, then proceeds to launch into a tirade about the glories of fourth edition and how he felt he should explain where I'd gone wrong after reading my thread on RPGNet. He proceeded to blast my enjoyment of earlier editions of the game and laud 4e's praises on me.

Over and over again I said, "Look, dude, I'm not berating or looking down on you for liking the game. Just let me dislike it and move on. Who cares?"

He was not to be deterred. He just kept on extolling the virtues of 4e, how it was superior in every way to all earlier editions, how it was the ultimate D&D exactly how it should always have been, etc., etc., etc.

I kept asking him to let it drop. As a freelancer in the industry I do try not to get ignorant with people and keep a professional face.

Finally, my friend Taej (who is a 4th ed fan, incidentally) made an excuse about how we had to get back to the hotel room and we bailed. Taej began ranting about "not a very nice person" gamers who can't keep their opinions about games to themselves and can't accept that everyone doesn't like what they do.

Since then I've noticed a disturbing trend--particularly on RPGNet--that as soon as anyone mentions anything negative about 4th ed, they get absolutely dogpiled by fans, who then turn around and accuse the entire thread of being an "anti-4e rant," despite the quite visible disparity in attacks between 4e and earlier edition fans...I find it astonishing how completely and how fast the game has become a "sacred cow" amongst its fans. Moreso than any other edition I've ever seen.

[EDIT]HAHAHAHAHAHAH...Fin, I love the profanity filter. "Not a very nice person." That's funny stuff.

[chgowiz]

@greyelf - that has to be one of the craziest, saddest "rabid fan" experiences I've heard to date, and it makes me sad. Sad that we can't have our likes and dislikes and talk about them. Sad that some people have to get tied up so much in knots that they go off like that. Kudos for you to keeping it professional, I think I would have asked for security at that point.

That's why my line on 3E/4E is "It's not the game for me, but OD&D is the game for me."

[jimlotfp]

I would have punched the guy after the second ignored "Drop it." Or at least gone on such a rant about his parentage, IQ, and thingy size that he would have taken a swing at me.

[Zulgyan]

Wow, that is a disturbing "cult of 4E" story.