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Post by Finarvyn on Aug 9, 2009 6:05:54 GMT -6
My son wants to play 4E. I'm not so sure I want to run it.  However, over the course of time I have assembled quite the library of 4E books. I held off more than 6 months before I finally bought the PH, MM, and DMG. A bunch of other books I found on e-bay and bought en-masse. I picked up the "for dummies" book and have struggled through parts of it. All in all, I'm not feeling too comfortable yet. But I have a plan. 1. I think I'm going to use pre-gen characters the first time out. I've hunted the 'net and have found a few posted in various places. 2. I'm sticking to the 4 core classes the first time out. That would be fighter, wizard, cleric, and rogue. I thought it would be more OD&D-like and even though it limits their options also may save my sanity somewhat. Maybe later I add in other classes, if there is a later.  3. I decided yesterday to invest in "Power Cards" for the 4 classes listed above. This may be my greatest victory in the war to conquer 4E. You see, I think the basic 4E game system isn't that complex, but the add-on options make the game explode with possibilites and I think (hope!) that's where the game seems overwhelming. What the "Power Card" decks will do is keep the PH out of the hands of the players but give them tiny handouts to help them figure out what their characters can do. I'm hoping that this will make the game seem do-able to my group. Anyway, I'm not sure when this game is actually going to happen, but at least I'm starting to think I could pull it off. Strange to think that I've been playing RPGs for three decades but am scared to try a game that has only been around for 14 months.  Anyway, that's my plan. |
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Post by thegreyelf on Aug 9, 2009 7:42:55 GMT -6
Good luck, and more power to you, man. I've played it exactly once and it was miserable. I have a friend in the RPGA who is (naturally) a 4e fan and he accurately described my feelings about it when he said, "I know you'd rather cut off your balls with a rusty butter knife than ever touch fourth edition again..."
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Post by tavis on Aug 9, 2009 9:05:25 GMT -6
Fin, you can download the Character Builder free for levels 1-3 (shades of Holmes!) and that'll both make power cards for you & also greatly facilitate the process of making characters when you do. The power cards from the CB also facilitate play because they have the attack bonuses and stuff already calculated - if you have to recalc that every time you attack, combat will take much much longer than it already will. Also, as with any edition of D&D, the best way to learn is by doing. I might not recommend actually playing - you don't want to have your willingness to play squelched by a "get off my lawn" moment, which is reasonably likely (see this EN World thread for example). Instead, find a 4E player who you like spending time with & who's evangelical and ask him to run a head-to-head combat with you. Playing the monster team well is a big part of DMing 4E, and going through a monster-on-monster fight with an experienced 4E player will help you get up to speed quickly without running into player-side assumptions that may cause you pain. |
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Post by Finarvyn on Aug 9, 2009 10:23:49 GMT -6
you'd rather cut off your balls with a rusty butter knife than ever touch fourth edition again... Ouch. Not the kind of gamer quote they plaster on the outside of a game book or on thier webpage, is it. Well, the thing for me is that I really want to give it an honest shot even though the design concept appears to be 180 o apart from my usual OD&D/C&C style of play. If this game ever actually happens, I'll be sure to tell everyone how it came out. (And if I mutilated myself thereafter.) |
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Post by thegreyelf on Aug 10, 2009 8:40:30 GMT -6
I hope it goes great for you. Seriously. Despite what a number of 4e fans over on RPGNet have continuously accused me of, I really did want to like 4e. I enjoyed the Hell out of reading it and couldn't wait to try it. When I finally did, I found it awful.
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Post by chronoplasm on Aug 10, 2009 11:39:51 GMT -6
How many people are going to be playing?
If it's just you and your son playing, you might consider giving your son a full party of four characters. That's how I play with my 9 year old sister.
We used pregen characters, power cards, and beads to represent HP and healing surges and whatnot.
Even if you do limit your son to just the four classic classes, you might still consider letting him play one of them as a Dragonborn. Kids love Dragonborn.
Kids love gnomes too. I showed my sister the 4E cartoons. She insisted on having a gnome character after that.
Good luck, and have fun!
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Post by parmstrong on Aug 10, 2009 12:48:31 GMT -6
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benoist
Level 5 Thaumaturgist
OD&D, AD&D, AS&SH
Posts: 346
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Post by benoist on Aug 10, 2009 13:26:11 GMT -6
Well, the thing for me is that I really want to give it an honest shot even though the design concept appears to be 180 o apart from my usual OD&D/C&C style of play. Do try it. I'm giving it a chance right now, and so far, I come to the conclusion that it is a 180 in game play, and not the type of game I want to play again. I'm still trying though, through the course of the current adventure, to see if I can overcome those feelings. *shrug* We'll see. |
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Post by Finarvyn on Aug 10, 2009 14:53:02 GMT -6
How many people are going to be playing? If it's just you and your son playing, you might consider giving your son a full party of four characters. My main group has 6 players, but I might schedule one with only 3-4 so as to not be too overwhelmed by the whole experience. I hadn't even thought about HP and healing surges -- the idea with the beads sounds pretty cool. I'm a little nervous about this, and actually in some ways this thread isn't making it much better. I appreciate all of the support and the ideas but when several posters who I respect a lot all tell me that they tried 4E, wanted to like it, and found it just isn't their thing -- well that doesn't bode well for the experience that I expect to have. Makes me feel kind of like those teens in the slasher movies. "We're in the old, spooky house. Let's split up. You take the attic, I'll take the basement...." |
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Post by chronoplasm on Aug 10, 2009 15:23:23 GMT -6
You are correct that the basic framework of the game is quite simple. In fact, run the game exactly how you run an old school game. Just when the PCs attack they get to use one of their powers - it is their job to let you know what the power does. Remind the players though that they aren't limited to using only their powers. When you describe the layout of your rooms, be sure to put things like chandeliers (for swinging from, or dropping on top of enemies) in there and encourage players to get creative with them. It's perfectly acceptable and quite simple to improvise rules for such actions. The DMG provides some good tips (page 42, I think?) *edit* Also remember that 4E is very visual. You are going to want to have various knick-knacks for use as memetics. Status conditions, such as prone, weakened, slowed, etc. can be difficult to keep track of without some kind of visual aid. I have sheets of glittery star stickers that I use for this purpose. Whenever a creature is afflicted with a condition, I simply take a sticker of an appropriate color and stick it on the creature's base. The stickers peel off pretty easily and don't leave much residue. You might want to have an assortment of coins, chips, cards (playing cards and blank note cards) ready at the table. |
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Post by robertsconley on Aug 12, 2009 6:33:11 GMT -6
As a game it works fine even great at times. The esstential trick is to have all the monster stat block printed on card or cheat sheets. As long as you know what the keywords mean you don' t have to go back to the rulebooks to see what they mean. If you have trouble with the keyword print them out as well. Note that the all the important informtion is contained in little boxes throughout the text those are what you want to photocopies. (Unless you managed to buy a PDF before Wizards yanked their stuff).
The same goes with the player stuff.
Outside of Combat D&D 4th is a lite RPG. About two dozen skills, a generic task system and the rest pretty much up to the referee. In fact their setting and locale information is presented in a lite format similar to the boxed set of the Wilderlands. The modules are a different story however.
The first two session of 4th edition I ran by trying to run the modules as is. I got better results by just printing off scads of stats cards and kept them in my hand. I then ran the game like I did GURPS, Fantasy Hero, AD&D, etc. When I needed a encounter I just pulled the 3 to 4 cards I needed and just winged it. For treasure I used the DMG as a guideline but also just winged it.
Just remember to adjust your encounter down if you don't want to hand out the recommended treasure. Also remember the DMG recommendations are based on a party of 5. Adjust accordingly for larger or smaller.
Despite what the hard core 4e fans the encounter and treasure are RECOMMENDATIONS in the 4e DMG. What they do is give you the math and the published adventure are built using the recommendations and assumptions they give. Of course people being people think they are rules like roll a d20 to hit. But again they are not. When I read it came across like "This is our recommendation and how we design our stuff." Your campaign may be completely different.
The main issue that I had has nothing to do with mechanics. Rather the collective flavor of the powers, class, and monster give the games I ran a high fantasy feel. The characters all felt larger than life. Which is OK if that what you want to run. However I run a gritty fantasy game in my Majestic Wilderlands and so I didn't stick with 4e.
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Post by Finarvyn on Aug 12, 2009 7:24:44 GMT -6
I think I'll try to have something printed off, monster-stat wise. Seems like the more "cheat sheets" I have the better, which will be odd for me since I'm so used to running low-detail styles of games. (Monsters need HD, damage, and maybe any "specials" and that's it.) The main issue that I had has nothing to do with mechanics. Rather the collective flavor of the powers, class, and monster give the games I ran a high fantasy feel. The characters all felt larger than life. Which is OK if that what you want to run. However I run a gritty fantasy game in my Majestic Wilderlands and so I didn't stick with 4e. Well, I think my own reaction is likely to be similar, but my son and his friends play those PS3 video games all the time and seem to want something where they can be a fantasy superhero. |
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Post by robertsconley on Aug 12, 2009 7:48:20 GMT -6
I think I'll try to have something printed off, monster-stat wise. Seems like the more "cheat sheets" I have the better, which will be odd for me since I'm so used to running low-detail styles of games. (Monsters need HD, damage, and maybe any "specials" and that's it.) I have to give credit to the designers of 4e making complex combat manageable at all levels of play. The only hiccup I heard is that at higher levels that it is harder to keep track of all the different status effecting various targets. There aren't that many but when you have a bunch going off at once it can be a bit of a pain. How they did this was limit each monster to a max of a half -dozen powers. In addition they focused on setting up groups of monsters whose powers works in complement. So while Orcus only has six powers or so when you look at who they want you to group with the demon prince you will find that it makes for a helluva of a challenge for high levels. Well, I think my own reaction is likely to be similar, but my son and his friends play those PS3 video games all the time and seem to want something where they can be a fantasy superhero. With that 4e should fit the bill nicely. In addition I would be surprised if your prep time was any greater with 4e than OD&D once you got familiar with the same. Another goal they focused was giving the referee the ability to put together a game fast. |
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Post by tavis on Aug 18, 2009 10:55:41 GMT -6
The only hiccup I heard is that at higher levels that it is harder to keep track of all the different status effecting various targets. I think it's a good idea even at lower levels to put something onto the minis (yes, you should have minis) to track conditions as well as which guys are bloodied. My group uses the differently-colored little rubber bands you'd use for pony tails or cornrows; you hang 'em off the arm or head of the mini, and put a key on the battlemat showing which color means which condition. (Keep a pile of each color next to the key for recognition & ease of finding one when you need it). I just had a very enjoyable and successful string of running 4E games at Gen Con, so take heart! One piece of advice is to start with a character-establishing piece - it doesn't have to be roleplaying (I started by asking "who takes 1st watch as you're camping - how far from the campfire are you standing" even though it doesn't really matter), just something to get who's who before the fighting starts. Also, go along with 4E players' tendency to use the rules instead of descriptions. Treat "I make a perception check" as like an old-school player saying "I do our standard new-room scanning protocol". Reply by asking "Where are you looking," and then give them a piece of information based on that to reward their extra description. Likewise with Diplomacy, Intimidate, etc. Give them more if they make a high roll, but subtly show them that they can learn/achieve things even on a low roll because you respond to what they say as much as what the dice say. I think it's best not to expect players to always describe what their powers do, especially if they do so before the dice roll that turns "I do an awesome thing" into "No, actually, you miss." What I found works well is when they kill an opponent or roll a natural 20, ask "Describe for me, please, how your character did that / what the others saw." Just that line gets a cheer - because you're announcing that it's time to kick ass - and the players use that pre-approval to come up with more creativity than they usually would. (Plus, crits and kills are rare enough that you can spend more time describing them without slowing down the already-glacial pace of combat.) |
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Post by parmstrong on Aug 18, 2009 19:51:08 GMT -6
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phantomtim
Level 3 Conjurer
13th Age Enthusiast
Posts: 75 
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Post by phantomtim on Aug 22, 2021 4:57:23 GMT -6
I'm sticking to the 4 core classes the first time out. That would be fighter, wizard, cleric, and rogue. I thought it would be more OD&D-like and even though it limits their options also may save my sanity somewhat. Toward the end of the 4th Edition line, there was a book called Heroes of the Fallen Lands. It streamlined the character classes, slashed the available feats, and offers only the four OD&D classes and races. It's still 4th Edition, but if you limit your games to that one book, they're much simpler. You'll also need the Rules Compendium and an adventure or a monster book to play. Out of curiosity, how did the game with your son go? I ran 4e for my kids for years, and we had a great time. The superheroic themes in 4th Edition were a good match for what the kids were looking for in a game. They seemed to enjoy the tactical nature of combat, too. |
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