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Post by murquhart72 on Sept 25, 2010 17:11:10 GMT -6
I have to say, although I find the latest version of D&D unnecessarily complex, I think I like the way they're putting it out now. It's new and risky, but interesting and fresh too.
Everyone starts with the "red box" Starter Set in which they learn how to play the game, then collects one or more books to build on that.
The books in question are smaller in size (digest or similar), but hefty in page count (300+). The Rules Compendium gives all the 4E rules in one book for both players and DMs. Heroes of the Fallen Lands and similar books give beginning information to players including basic game play and character creation. The DM gets Dungeon Tiles Master Sets, Dungeon Master's Kit and Monster Vault, providing all the gaming supplements a DM needs to run whatever game they want.
I like the bite-sized chunks, the size of the books makes them portable (despite the page count) and affordable. Although I'll probably only have the Starter Set to get a taste, the whole marketing model seems to make sense to me and lightens my initial nausea at WotC changing my favorite game so much.
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Post by Mike on Sept 26, 2010 19:58:32 GMT -6
It sounds like you need to buy a whole bunch of stuff if you don't already have the 3 books. If you do have the 3 books would you bother?
I own the Players' Handbook (and printed out the dozen-or-so pages of errata to go with it) and frankly it crosses the line from fun role-playing game to needlessly dense text book - but that may well be due to my advanced years and diminishing grey matter.
I might pick up that big box of dungeon tiles but I couldn't see myself investing the cash or time required to move to 4E. For a time I enjoyed playing 3E but eventually ran into 'rules fatigue'; with 4E only the names have stayed the same, everything else was jettisoned to make way for a new style of play.
I did wonder whether Essentials was an attempt to open a door back to role-play-land for those that were interested - it seems like a viable move, WHFRP is giving players the option of shedding the cards and fiddly bits from their 3E game, but it's now clear that they have some other plan up their sleeves...
One other thought - I fondly remember an AD&D game from many years ago where the GM set up an epic final battle using Games Workshop floor plans blu-tac'd to a piece of chip board. There was a miniature for every character and every monster, the battle lasted for about an hour and resulted in the deaths of two 9th level PCs (man it was tough). It was great and the battle remains a talking point to this day but I would rather chew off my eyelids that go through that process for EVERY battle the characters face - which seems to be the case with 4E material...
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Post by murquhart72 on Sept 27, 2010 14:48:25 GMT -6
No, if you've already got the hardcovers, you don't need anything else. Though the tiles would come in handy. Also, the DM and Monster sets will have TONS of counters if you're not into buying miniatures.
The Essentials line is just the latest, greatest thing for those just getting into the game.
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Post by jeffb on Sept 27, 2010 16:56:56 GMT -6
The Essentials line is just the latest, greatest thing for those just getting into the game. In my case it's a streamlining as well as providing a bit more old school flavor. I have the three core books, as well as PHB2, MM2, a few modules from GG /WOTC, and a couple of supplemental books (manual of the planes, open grave). Being that I prefer a very OD&D or B/X style game, and end up trimming alot of races/classes and other "crunch" from the game Heros of the Fallen Lands will be perfect. The classic 4 classes (fighter, Cleric, MU, and rogue) and classic races (humans, elves dwarves, halflings). They have tweaked these classes/races compared to the core books to fall more in line with their previous edition counterparts. The rules compendium will take care of anything else I need from a rules perspective (IOW- the "how to run the game" aspect) The DM kit will provide the toys for me,as will the Monster kit-as mentioned, the counters, adventures, DM "only" material (e.g. now magic items are split up based on rarity instead of all being in the PHB, and thus expected by players to be readily available in the game), and they are re-writing many of the original creatures in the MM for better playability (now that they've had a few years to examine things and see what works better). I will continue to utilize the MM2,Open Grave, and the MotP (for inspiration), but the core books, and the PHB2 will go by the wayside, once I have my essential Essentials ;D While the game overall is still more complicated than I prefer-I really do like it better than anything WOTC has done with the game since they purchased TSR, and Essentials is a nice reset/distillation of sorts for a DM like me who does not buy every book and run a kitchen sink campaign. Oh, and the little default sandbox setting that 4E uses: The Nentir Vale (which I absolutely love, and have used for both 4E, and S&W) will be getting a gazetteer in the Essentials line. That is a must have as well for me- just to see what I can rip from it, as well as to see how the do things , I have already done myself. |
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Post by murquhart72 on Sept 27, 2010 17:17:28 GMT -6
While the game overall is still more complicated than I prefer-I really do like it better than anything WOTC has done with the game since they purchased TSR, and Essentials is a nice reset/distillation of sorts for a DM like me who does not buy every book and run a kitchen sink campaign. This ^ = +1 ;D |
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eris
Level 4 Theurgist
Posts: 161
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Post by eris on Oct 6, 2010 16:58:51 GMT -6
While the game overall is still more complicated than I prefer-I really do like it better than anything WOTC has done with the game since they purchased TSR, and Essentials is a nice reset/distillation of sorts for a DM like me who does not buy every book and run a kitchen sink campaign. This ^ = +1 ;D I think I agree with this too. I just want Fighter, Cleric, Wizard, and Thief; Human, Elf, and Dwarf (I'll take Halflings if I have to.  ) I want Fighters to be simple to play, with little bookkeeping or resource management, and I want them to rely on their basic attacks with weapons more than feats/powers/stances. I want Wizards to be the bookkeeper/resource manager...and I want them to cast spells! I want Clerics that heal, cast a few spells and beat on people with hammers! I want Thieves that sneak around, attack from behind, and stay out of face to face combat when they can. I don't want "roles", as laid out in the 4e book for players *or* for monsters. Your role is what *you* (the player) make it, not something you inherit from your class or race. Essentials appears to be leaning that direction, still too many rules and predefined roles, but better. |
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leon
Level 4 Theurgist
Posts: 103
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Post by leon on Oct 9, 2010 12:10:12 GMT -6
I have no experience whatsoever with 4E but I just skimmed through the Red Box's Players Book and it is some sort of Choose your Own Adventure?  Are you supposed to learn the game this way? And let's suppose you do, how do you play the game after the choose your own adventure is finished? Where are the rules? Do you have to buy the PHB, DMG and MM as normal? Doesn't this make the Red Box completely unnecessary? |
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18 Spears
BANNED
Yeah ... Spear This Ya' Freak!
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Post by 18 Spears on Oct 9, 2010 14:07:19 GMT -6
I havent seen the box set for 4th but Mentzer's basic D&D used "pick yer path" to teach how to play. But some people say Mentzer talks down more than other early editions of the basic game.
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Post by thorswulf on Oct 9, 2010 15:29:40 GMT -6
This very topic popped up with Paul, one of the guys who works in my local games/comic store. I've been tempted by 4E for a a while, but was put off by what I percieved to be an new overpriced version of D&D. Paul pointed out that what you want out of 4E really should be the decididng factor on which version of the game you get. I have a 4 year old daughter who loves my dice and minis (Bless her heart) and who I fully intend to introduce to rpgs. The Essential line is a great way to do this as it reduces the game back down to its core elements, while retaining the new flavor. Adding the other material as you go probably works out the same pricewise in the end, but you get more nifty accessories for your game.
The tactical element is meant to bring out the heroic element of fantastic fiction. Clashes with mighty monsters and dastardly villains should allow for combat tricks and clever schemes. Nice work on the designer's part. I'm planning on picking up a red box next payday.
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Post by vito on Oct 9, 2010 15:47:42 GMT -6
I have no experience whatsoever with 4E but I just skimmed through the Red Box's Players Book and it is some sort of Choose your Own Adventure? Are you supposed to learn the game this way? And let's suppose you do, how do you play the game after the choose your own adventure is finished? Where are the rules? Do you have to buy the PHB, DMG and MM as normal? Doesn't this make the Red Box completely unnecessary? The actual rules of the game are in the dungeon master's booklet included in the boxed set. |
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Post by kenmeister on Oct 9, 2010 20:51:37 GMT -6
I have to say, although I find the latest version of D&D unnecessarily complex, I think I like the way they're putting it out now. It's new and risky, but interesting and fresh too. Everyone starts with the "red box" Starter Set in which they learn how to play the game, then collects one or more books to build on that. The books in question are smaller in size (digest or similar), but hefty in page count (300+). The Rules Compendium gives all the 4E rules in one book for both players and DMs. Heroes of the Fallen Lands and similar books give beginning information to players including basic game play and character creation. The DM gets Dungeon Tiles Master Sets, Dungeon Master's Kit and Monster Vault, providing all the gaming supplements a DM needs to run whatever game they want. I like the bite-sized chunks, the size of the books makes them portable (despite the page count) and affordable. Although I'll probably only have the Starter Set to get a taste, the whole marketing model seems to make sense to me and lightens my initial nausea at WotC changing my favorite game so much. As a Hasbro stockholder I'm glad to hear it. ;D |
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leon
Level 4 Theurgist
Posts: 103
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Post by leon on Oct 10, 2010 6:08:26 GMT -6
I have no experience whatsoever with 4E but I just skimmed through the Red Box's Players Book and it is some sort of Choose your Own Adventure? Are you supposed to learn the game this way? And let's suppose you do, how do you play the game after the choose your own adventure is finished? Where are the rules? Do you have to buy the PHB, DMG and MM as normal? Doesn't this make the Red Box completely unnecessary? The actual rules of the game are in the dungeon master's booklet included in the boxed set. Ah I see. But the character creations rules are still in the choose your own path players book, no? How do you find all that stuff when you need reference? It's impossible to navigate it. It seems to me completely impossible to play the game with these books even as a simple starter. But I might be wrong and that approach may work. I havent seen the box set for 4th but Mentzer's basic D&D used "pick yer path" to teach how to play. But some people say Mentzer talks down more than other early editions of the basic game. While I'm not familiar with Metzner Basic, I saw that after the "choose your own adventure" part of the book it has the rules as normal in the second part of the player manual. Which makes much more sense than the current 4e Starter set. Not that I would ever try to learn 4E, but if I did, I would prefer the "standard" approach (PHB, DMG, MM). Of course, while 4E is completely alien to me, I'm not new to RPG games, so I can't speak for people who just now enter the hobby. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 17, 2011 20:07:42 GMT -6
Unfortunately, the 4E Red Box becomes obsolete once you get a hang of the game. Parts of it (Thief in particular) don't carry over--not even to the Essentials.
If you have the 4E hardbacks, then the Essentials are a step backwards (like going from 1E to BECMI). Only new players would benefit from the slimmed down 4EE.
The format of the Essentials looks interesting, but I think you get less for your money. The two players paperbacks have fair amount of repeated material in them, as do the rules compendium and DM book (from the DM kit box set). And all the books have a ton of fluff.
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Post by vito on Jan 18, 2011 4:52:18 GMT -6
I dunno.
Monster Vault is actually a really good deal compared to the Monster Manual. The prices are roughly the same, but MV gives you not only improved stat blocks, but also a poster map and hundreds of these little monster tokens.
That at least seems like a better deal.
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Post by Ronin84 on Jan 18, 2011 7:05:21 GMT -6
I have been running an essentials game for some time now with my kids and some of their friends. I also have almost all of the 4th hardback books, I can tell you that the kids love the essentials in comparison to OD+D or 3rd. They do like the Pathfinder version of 3rd though, and that is mostly because of the power upgrades to the various classes especially Cleric.
I thought the Red Box was a great idea that was horribly mangled! As posted above the RB becomes out dated quickly, though the addition of the counters in their was nice as well as the poster maps which I've gotten a ton of use out of. The Essentials books were well done though and I was looking forward to more BUT it seems that something is afoot over at WOTC/HASBRO and I'm not sure what we are going to be seeing in the next few months.
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Post by kesher on Jan 18, 2011 12:09:51 GMT -6
Ronin, could you say a bit more about what your kids like about 4E as compared to ODD or 3E? My 7 year-old like ODD, though I think it's mostly 'cause I let him make whatever he wants and rule it on the fly. However, I've been increasingly thinking there's stuff about 4E he might really like...
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phantomtim
Level 3 Conjurer
13th Age Enthusiast
Posts: 85
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Post by phantomtim on Aug 22, 2021 5:30:31 GMT -6
Oh, and the little default sandbox setting that 4E uses: The Nentir Vale (which I absolutely love, and have used for both 4E, and S&W) will be getting a gazetteer in the Essentials line. That is a must have as well for me- just to see what I can rip from it, as well as to see how the do things , I have already done myself. I love the Nentir Vale setting as well. It's a shame that the Nentir Vale Gazetteer was never written. |
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) I want Fighters to be simple to play, with little bookkeeping or resource management, and I want them to rely on their basic attacks with weapons more than feats/powers/stances. I want Wizards to be the bookkeeper/resource manager...and I want them to cast spells! I want Clerics that heal, cast a few spells and beat on people with hammers! I want Thieves that sneak around, attack from behind, and stay out of face to face combat when they can. I don't want "roles", as laid out in the 4e book for players *or* for monsters. Your role is what *you* (the player) make it, not something you inherit from your class or race.
Are you supposed to learn the game this way? And let's suppose you do, how do you play the game after the choose your own adventure is finished? Where are the rules? Do you have to buy the PHB, DMG and MM as normal? Doesn't this make the Red Box completely unnecessary?
