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Post by tavis on Jan 6, 2011 7:13:17 GMT -6
At Legends and Labyrinths, George Strayton is working towards old-school 4E from the opposite direction - house-ruling the new game to make it play like older ones, rather than taking the old-school chassis and adding 4E and storygame elements. Each approach has its own merits - L&L is compatible with 4E characters (especially Essentials) and rules, but expects more mastery of same; OSH looks easier to pick up and start playing but is basically its own game. Back in '05 George was the first person I knew who was running an AD&D campaign, and he and I play in one another's OD&D and 4E/L&L games, so I can attest that he knows what he's doing! The cyclical procedures for exploration are especially cool IMO. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 6, 2011 10:29:57 GMT -6
Thanks for the kind words, Tavis. That's a great summation of my project. I started playing Basic/AD&D in 1979 and played it until 2007 (with some 2e and 3e here and there). L&L is my attempt to bring any 4e players who might actually like OSR play into the style we all love. Check out the legendsandlabyrinths.wordpress.com site to see what I've been doing, specifically the files under "Core L&L." Eventually, there will be a full book that shows how to play OSR using the 4e chassis (with my house rules modifications, of course, some of which are major).
I only got to know Gary because he loved XENA: WARRIOR PRINCESS, which I wrote for, and he was overjoyed when I introduced him to the actress who played Aphrodite at GenCon one year. And I only got the chance to play with him once (at that GenCon at a giant table of 14 -- I was killed very quickly).
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Post by kesher on Jan 7, 2011 21:27:37 GMT -6
Wow, George, that stuff looks great! Yet another thing added to the reading list...  |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 7, 2011 22:19:05 GMT -6
Wow, George, that stuff looks great! Yet another thing added to the reading list... Thanks, Kesher! Just checked out Sandbox Empire. It's awesome! I'm adding it immediately to my blog roll! |
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Post by Finarvyn on Jan 8, 2011 9:02:23 GMT -6
Just looked at some of your stuff, George. Awesome! I've been tinkering with ways to simplify 4E and I love the philosophy you are bringing to the game!
Have an EXALT!
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Post by Deleted on Jan 8, 2011 11:43:43 GMT -6
Just looked at some of your stuff, George. Awesome! I've been tinkering with ways to simplify 4E and I love the philosophy you are bringing to the game! Have an EXALT! Thanks, Finarvyn! I'm leading up to a complete book that will ideally allow the use of the 4th edition chassis to run games that feel old-school, i.e., sand-box, exploration based adventures! |
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Post by Finarvyn on Jan 8, 2011 17:18:41 GMT -6
This is good news! My current 4E campaign needs an injeciton of 1E and so I'm really looking forward to seeing what you come up with.
The big thing I did so far was to remove the battleboard and run 4E more like I used to run OD&D or C&C. Sometimes there are some questions of "where am I, again?" and stuff like that, but it really put some pop back into my game last session.
Another thing I started to tinker with was trying to overhaul Powers. My thought was to come up with quick one-line power information instead of huge Power data-blocks. Seems like one thing that boggs 4E down is the sheer quantity of information that is associated with every power, every monster, ever NPC, etc.
I've not gotten far into this project and it may not work well, but it was my thought at the moment.
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Post by kesher on Jan 8, 2011 23:26:23 GMT -6
Amen! Fin, please post it if you figure out a decent shorthand.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2011 2:03:56 GMT -6
First question: Are you guys using standard or Essentials classes?
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Post by Finarvyn on Jan 9, 2011 6:30:16 GMT -6
I have both sets of books, so I'll be happy to use either one.
The advantage to standard is that I have OCR PDF versions of most of the books, whereas I don't have them for the Essentials line. That tends to make things kind of nice when I put together handouts, etc.
The advantages to Essentials are that it's more current, also I assume simplified.
Long-term I think I'd be tempted to migrate over to the Essentials line.
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Post by Finarvyn on Jan 9, 2011 6:47:47 GMT -6
Amen! Fin, please post it if you figure out a decent shorthand. For each spell I was planning something similar to the older rulebooks. Instead of half-page blocks I thought it might look something like this: Spell (* spells are encounter, ** are daily) ATT / DEF (for type of attack and defense used) Damage (where appropriate) Effect (general notes) I thought that I would throw out flavor test and ignore a lot of the complex effect stuff. Any parts left blank would simply imply that the GM should "wing it" and I figured that a lot of spells would fit this category. I threw together a quick list for the magic-user, level 0 and level 1 spells. This is from the Essentials book. Sadly, this is just a small dent in the total number of powers, which is what caused this project to stall out. Maybe this thread will inspire me to get fired up again!  Mage-0 Cantrips(Cantrips don't seem to have "attacks") Ghost Sound Light Mage Hand Prestidigitation Suggestion Mage-1 SpellsMagic Missile Int / R 2+IM (where IM means INT Modifier) Arc Lightning Int / R 1d6+IM Beguiling Strands Int / W Tangle Freezing Burst Int / R 1d6+IM Hypnotism Int / W Target attacks something of your choice Phantasmal Assault Int / W 1d8+IM Target attacks phantom creature Phantom Cage Int / W 1d8+IM Target “trapped” and cannot move Burning Hands* Int / R 2d6+IM 1d6 creatures in blast area Illusionary Obstacles* Int / W Target confused and avoids “obstacles” Fountain of Flame** Int / R 3d8+IM Area effect |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2011 13:17:44 GMT -6
Hey Marv, Essentials is DEFINITELY a simpler version of the game, so I would base your work on that. I've converted all my campaigns to Essentials-only. The Slayer, for example, doesn't even have daily powers, so creating a list like the one you made for the mage should take less work (I think despite the availability of your OCR versions of standard 4e -- plus that book is SO far out of date that they're releasing a new version of it with all the updates next month -- I think it'll be called Heroes of Legend: Spell and Sword, or something like that). I like your shorthand system. You could even put it all on one line separated by commas or semicolons like stats in OD&D/AD&D books. The only pertinent information I think you're missing is what type of action the power is (standard, move, minor, etc.). However, on my character sheet (which I'm nearly done creating), I have sections for each action type: standard, move, minor, immediate, opportunity. So in that case, you wouldn't need the info in the stat block. But overall, this looks great! I would happily steal any lists like this that you create to use in my games. Very cool! I can't wait to see more! |
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Post by vito on Jan 9, 2011 18:20:34 GMT -6
You might be able to condense the spell lists by making all the spells scalable like at-will spells.
A lot of the higher level spells in 4E are just more powerful versions of lower level spells. Instead of making players replace their lower level spells with nearly identical higher level versions, you could simply make spells become more powerful at higher levels.
Burning Hands may start out as 2d6+IM at 1st level, but become 4d6 at 11th level, and eventually 6d6 at 21st level.
It makes the individual spell descriptions longer, but it shortens the spell list enough that you should get a net gain as far as page count goes.
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Post by Finarvyn on Jan 13, 2011 18:15:06 GMT -6
Burning Hands may start out as 2d6+IM at 1st level, but become 4d6 at 11th level, and eventually 6d6 at 21st level. I wonder there could be a simple rule, such as "double effect or damage at 11th level, triple at 21st level" to take care of most of this. That would keep the spell statblocks somewhat small. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 26, 2011 22:15:34 GMT -6
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Post by Finarvyn on Jan 29, 2011 9:27:37 GMT -6
Fantastic! Thanks for the update and keep 'em coming! I may volunteer to playtest just so that I can survive my current 4E game. Seems like a quick switch-over and I'd love to play L&L more than all-out 4E anyway. |
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Post by rabindranath72 on Feb 3, 2011 5:20:30 GMT -6
The biggest thing which kept me away from 4e is the information management and the requirement for a grid and markers of some sort. I tinkered with these parts, but I did not come to a satisfying solution, so I sold my books  But it would be interesting to see something to address these problems, or provide simple tweaks to the rules. |
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Post by Finarvyn on Feb 4, 2011 9:30:58 GMT -6
I have a similar feeling. There is way too much information overload. (Like those "bing" search-engine commercials on TV.  ) Legends & Labyrinths sounds like it may reduce this a lot. The only thing I wonder is (as the game continues to develop on the L&L blog) how much it's going to be a unique system and how much "4E lite." If it's a totally new system with AD&D-4E-homebrew parts, the game starts to be less valuable to me. I really want a 4E that I can handle. |
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Post by Falconer on Feb 10, 2011 14:27:58 GMT -6
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Post by rabindranath72 on Feb 18, 2011 6:50:56 GMT -6
I had seen this, it's very very nice. That's how 4e should have been! |
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Post by pessimisthalfling on Apr 6, 2011 8:12:49 GMT -6
I find your take on 4e very compelling. I'm suggesting this to my friends. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 6, 2011 13:56:03 GMT -6
I find your take on 4e very compelling. I'm suggesting this to my friends. Thanks! Much appreciated. And just to clear everything up: There are two "versions" of L&L: 1. "L&L for 4e" which is a set of house rules and exploration-based play-style that harkens back to OD&D and is really a "skin" for the 4e chassis. 2. "L&L" is a d20 OGL game onto itself that cuts away most of what clutters the newer editions to make it a fast, flexible, and fun game, again exploration-based, and with additional "literary" mechanics that key off certain descriptors (like Mighty or Foolish or Wise or Feeble) and other information about your PC (e.g., Alignment where your choice comes with a specific trait, like Virtuous for Good as one example -- and there's more to it than that as well, including how Law and Chaos factor into the stability of your PC's choices between Good, Neutral, and Evil actions in given situations), not to mention the all-important Character Wheel, which represents a mosaic (a literal mosaic of colors) the relate to your PC's experiences and come into play in certain situations for good or illl (the specifics would take longer to describe fully here -- better to see it in action). And just to be clear: there are no Powers. There are spells, prayers, and OPTIONS for melee characters to cause additional effects (like immobilization by pinning a target to a wall with a dagger) through the use of Energy Points -- but only if they can explain how they're accomplishing this feat within the context of the game world (in this example, they of course need a dagger -- or some weapon that can actually pin someone to something like wood, not granite). Look for a playtest, or check out the game when it releases at GenCon. There will be some sort of free downloadable version available -- we're working out the details on that as well -- but you'll be able to get it from rpgnow as a PDF or Lulu as a print-on-demand. Note that it's 8.5" x 5.5", reminiscent of (and an homage to) the OD&D books. |
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Post by pessimisthalfling on Apr 6, 2011 16:59:50 GMT -6
Thanks for the shout-out on your blog! I really like your 4e house rules because they tell a very interesting story all on their own. I'll definitely keep an eye out for the OGL version. (My buddies are all D20 fans, so I think they'll like that even more.) I'll tweet the Legends & Labyrinths link every once in a while to do my bit to get the word out. |
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Post by vito on Apr 7, 2011 5:57:21 GMT -6
Cool! I'll be at GenCon this year. Can't wait to see you there and maybe give Legends & Labyrinths a try. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 28, 2011 21:57:05 GMT -6
Thanks for the shout-out on your blog! I really like your 4e house rules because they tell a very interesting story all on their own. I'll definitely keep an eye out for the OGL version. (My buddies are all D20 fans, so I think they'll like that even more.) I'll tweet the Legends & Labyrinths link every once in a while to do my bit to get the word out. The Beta-Test World Tour leaves for the UK and France this coming Tuesday, but we're back in the States after that, culminating at GenCon. We've recently made a deal with LR Hobbies to the Official Terrain of L&L, we have an app in the works that allows you to look up everything in the game (without being online!), and many more surprises! Check out the site right now to see snippets of the cover of the L&L main book, which comes out at GenCon (officially). The second books, Supplement I, releases in December! |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 28, 2011 22:00:23 GMT -6
Cool! I'll be at GenCon this year. Can't wait to see you there and maybe give Legends & Labyrinths a try. Well have a great adventure and some amazing terrain from LR Hobbies, the Official Terrain of L&L. Stop by the site (www.legendsandlabyrinths.com) to see sneak peeks at classes, monsters, spells, and so on. The big reveal of the full cover is coming up, along with other big (and very unexpected) announcements. As soon as they're revealed, the RPG boards everywhere will all crash. That's how big I'm talking.... |
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Post by Finarvyn on Apr 29, 2011 9:19:44 GMT -6
And just to clear everything up: There are two "versions" of L&L: 1. "L&L for 4e" which is a set of house rules and exploration-based play-style that harkens back to OD&D and is really a "skin" for the 4e chassis. I was confused by the "two versions" thing, but you've cleared it up. Any updates to the 4E skin? That's the version that I'm most interested in watching.... |
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2011 5:03:33 GMT -6
Any updates to the 4E skin? That's the version that I'm most interested in watching.... Looks like George is working mostly on his OGL version and not the "4E skin" one. That's a shame because I'd love to run a 4E lite rules set and for a while L&L looked like the way I wanted to go. Now it looks like it's a parallel game of its own. The idea of merging 1E with 4E is what interested me, not a whole new game. I've got a shelf full of those. I wanted to be able to run my 4E books the way I run my older game editions. |
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Post by kesher on May 23, 2011 14:16:31 GMT -6
Having just playtested L&L on Sunday, I would say that many aspects of 4e would be easily compatible into the overall more "1e" feeling of L&L. He has conversion rules for both 1e and 4e monsters--I used them both while making my adventure, with the Fiend Folio and the Monster Vault. Worked pretty flawlessly.
I know that's still different from what you're talking about, but thought it was worth mentioning.
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Post by kesher on May 26, 2011 13:34:41 GMT -6
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