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Post by Finarvyn on Apr 2, 2012 14:10:19 GMT -6
Do you have Chainmail? I'm still hoping someday I'll land an affordable original! The original is annoying (to me) because the copy I have is comb bound, and the pages always get stuck in the binding. I actually use my xerox copy more than my original for that reason.
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Post by Sean Michael Kelly on Apr 2, 2012 14:39:43 GMT -6
Marv, I just want one for a clean copy. :-)
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Post by jmccann on Apr 2, 2012 22:34:00 GMT -6
The only thing I've ever seen AAR for is "ascending armor rating". I don't know if that is what he means or not. As someone else points out I meant After Action Report. I'd like to know what the setup was and then how it turned out. I am really interested in how to have character actions impact the mass actions and vice versa, so I'd like to hear how these CM games work in your campaign, in both directions.
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Post by jmccann on Apr 2, 2012 22:38:25 GMT -6
Marv, I just want one for a clean copy. :-) The non-OCR copy from when WOTC sold the PDFs just needs to have the gray show-through from the wrong side of the paper removed and the gamma tweaked, and I think it would make an OK printout, presuming you have the PDF from when it was being sold. I plan to do it at some point but not any time soon.
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Post by Sean Michael Kelly on Apr 3, 2012 2:56:19 GMT -6
Marv, I just want one for a clean copy. :-) The non-OCR copy from when WOTC sold the PDFs just needs to have the gray show-through from the wrong side of the paper removed and the gamma tweaked, and I think it would make an OK printout, presuming you have the PDF from when it was being sold. I plan to do it at some point but not any time soon. Some dark place may come to light very shortly!
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Post by Sean Michael Kelly on Apr 3, 2012 3:03:12 GMT -6
The only thing I've ever seen AAR for is "ascending armor rating". I don't know if that is what he means or not. As someone else points out I meant After Action Report. I'd like to know what the setup was and then how it turned out. I am really interested in how to have character actions impact the mass actions and vice versa, so I'd like to hear how these CM games work in your campaign, in both directions. Our next session will use nearly all troop-rules and intend to stretch that system with a huge melee. The 7 pc party is all 4th level, so all but the MU fight as 4 men. (2+1) I want to have hoards come out of the woodwork of 1hd creatures and see how it does. I'll have as many as 25-30 goblins/orcs raining down on them. :-)
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Post by jmccann on Apr 3, 2012 21:08:06 GMT -6
The non-OCR copy from when WOTC sold the PDFs just needs to have the gray show-through from the wrong side of the paper removed and the gamma tweaked, and I think it would make an OK printout, presuming you have the PDF from when it was being sold. I plan to do it at some point but not any time soon. Some dark place may come to light very shortly! Good... the last thing I need is another project like this!
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Post by Malchor on Sept 11, 2018 21:44:24 GMT -6
IMNSHO, using CHAINMAIL for D&D is like trying to use Spitfire parts in a Mustang. They're both great WW2 fighter aircraft, but the bits are not interchangeable. They are, the Mustang used a Packard V-1650-7, a license-built version of the Rolls-Royce Merlin 66 also used in the Spitfire L.F Mk.VIII and L.F Mk.IX. My grandfather worked for Packard building those engines, he tinkered with the carburetor on his own time and improved fuel efficiency—Packard made sure he stayed stateside due to that.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 11, 2018 23:05:10 GMT -6
There's a lot more to an aircraft than the engine. Like, let's talk about gun caliber.
Or wing profile or prop or...
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darien
Level 4 Theurgist
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Post by darien on Sept 12, 2018 7:04:44 GMT -6
I've considered running OD&D with Chainmail, but overall I'm more likely to use the "Alternate Combat System" that later became the default combat system.
That being said, I own Chainmail on PDF and it is a good war game.
I wouldn't mind running an RPG campaign using a war game combat engine like Chainmail or One Man One Gun (and its medieval variant, One Man One Knight)
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Post by Malchor on Sept 15, 2018 15:36:45 GMT -6
There's a lot more to an aircraft than the engine. Like, let's talk about gun caliber. Or wing profile or prop or... Hey, you said parts. There are some compatible parts, lots of them. In that little thing called the engine. Oh, come on man, I'm was joshing you.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 15, 2018 19:39:50 GMT -6
The only reason the engines are compatible is that the Mustang was redesigned to accept the Merlin instead of its original normally-aspirated Allison engine.
WW2 aircraft are another passion of mine...
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Post by tdenmark on Oct 8, 2018 0:09:58 GMT -6
I did a reformat for personal use that cleaned up a lot of the difficult to read parts. I'd like to find some way to rewrite Chainmail, much like a retro-clone, and have clean layout, legible and organized text, and nice graphics. There was a nice attempt posted here some time ago called Grognard that I think safely falls within copyright. It uses the game mechanics, but all original text. Here is the reformatted combat table that makes a lot more sense.
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Post by Stormcrow on Oct 8, 2018 12:04:38 GMT -6
I don't find that table any easier to read. Once you realize that the Chainmail tables use a hyphen as a colon instead of a minus, they're really easy to understand.
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Post by angantyr on Oct 8, 2018 12:38:50 GMT -6
The only reason the engines are compatible is that the Mustang was redesigned to accept the Merlin instead of its original normally-aspirated Allison engine. WW2 aircraft are another passion of mine... Also interesting how both the P-40 and early P-51s had the same Allison engine, but the latter was some ~30 MPH faster...North American Aviation did a stellar job on the P-51 design. EDIT: And also how they put a Packard Merlin in the P-40F, and while it was an improvement, it sure didn't approach a P-51B or later model in terms of performance...
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Post by Malchor on Oct 8, 2018 19:43:38 GMT -6
I don't find that table any easier to read. Once you realize that the Chainmail tables use a hyphen as a colon instead of a minus, they're really easy to understand. Domesday Book version of the rules is nice and clear. It uses en-dashes, but there is enough space before the numbers that they do not look like minus signed.
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Post by Malchor on Oct 8, 2018 19:48:45 GMT -6
I did a reformat for personal use that cleaned up a lot of the difficult to read parts. I'd like to find some way to rewrite Chainmail, much like a retro-clone, and have clean layout, legible and organized text, and nice graphics. There was a nice attempt posted here some time ago called Grognard that I think safely falls within copyright. It uses the game mechanics, but all original text. Here is the reformatted combat table that makes a lot more sense. What's that 6+ for? I thought it was for every die rolled, all 6s are a kill, not that you rolled 2 die and get 4+4=8, that's still 2 fours, no kills. If you rolled 2 sixes, then you have two kills.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 8, 2018 21:12:30 GMT -6
It uses en-dashes, but there is enough space before the numbers that they do not look like minus signed. In 47 years of playing CHAINMAIL I have never before heard of anybody reading that as a minus sign. Because doing so makes no d**n SENSE.
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Post by Stormcrow on Oct 8, 2018 21:26:31 GMT -6
In 47 years of playing CHAINMAIL I have never before heard of anybody reading that as a minus sign. Because doing so makes no d**n SENSE. Look at it the other way. When I first looked at that table, I couldn't make sense of it because it seemed to be saying things like "-1 die per man." I couldn't find the rules that explained when you'd impose penalty to your dice... and the penalties seemed backward, worse when you should have had a better chance. I knew I was obviously reading it wrong, but I couldn't figure out why. It didn't occur to me that it wasn't actually "-1 die per man," because that's what was printed. It wasn't until one day — I still hadn't played it because I couldn't understand it — that it suddenly dawned on me that the dashes were just a poor typographical choice, not a minus sign, that I understood the table and could play. A LOT of people went through this. The game seems unplayable until you figure out that those aren't minus signs.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 9, 2018 13:11:12 GMT -6
Prove to me a LOT of people went through that. The people I've played with over the last 47 years all figured it out within five minutes even if they'd never played before. "It can't be a minus sign so it must be a dash" is pretty basic reasoning.
Tim Kask said recently "If you have trouble understanding CHAINMAIL, you need to improve your reading comprehension." I'm becoming more and more inclined to agree with him.
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Post by Stormcrow on Oct 9, 2018 20:36:11 GMT -6
Prove to me a LOT of people went through that. I can't prove it to you, because I haven't recorded links to the many messages of people I have seen on Internet forums who had this exact problem, then said something like "Ohhhhhhh!" when they had it explained to them. Prove to me that you've never, in 47 years, come across someone who thought those were minus signs before they had them explained. "I don't understand this minus sign here" is also a reasonable reaction. Early TSR publications were not exactly paragons of editing. Those things totally look like minus signs. I don't understand the value you see in shouting about how stupid people must be not to understand it. Why not just say, "Those aren't minus signs, they're dashes"? Problem solved, everyone is happy, no one feels belittled.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 9, 2018 22:36:37 GMT -6
"I don't understand this minus sign here" is also a reasonable reaction. "Putting a minus sign here makes no sense. Other people have played this game. Therefore, it makes sense. Therefore, this is not a minus sign." I've frankly seen this throughout the OSR. If there are two possible interpretations, one of which makes a playable game, and the other makes absolutely no sense, the OSR by and large seems unable to assume that the game IS playable.
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Post by Stormcrow on Oct 10, 2018 5:12:07 GMT -6
What *I* have seen throughout the OSR when there are two possible interpretations is that people will generally believe the more elaborate, they-had-a-master-plan-in-all-things interpretation instead of the simpler, and usually true they-made-stuff-up-they-thought-was-fun that you yourself say. It is not an issue of playability; only people outside the OSR, who don't play the game at all, tend to look at it and proclaim it unplayable.
You underestimate the ability of people to be confused by this. They're not proclaiming Chainmail unplayable; they're proclaiming themselves unable to understand that table, but they'd like to. When I myself was confused by this, I KNEW I was misinterpreting something, but I didn't know WHAT.
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Post by murquhart72 on Oct 10, 2018 17:13:14 GMT -6
As an intelligent person with excellent grasp of English grammar, I agree 100% with Stormcrow. The rules were terrific in concept, horrid in "writer's comprehension". Blaring that it's the reader's fault may explain why nobody would admit to not understanding at first. I don't know of anybody who want's to look like an idiot and playing games should not be exclusive only to those with college degrees in "how to read a minus sign as a simple division". Same goes double for OD&D's loose patchwork of unexplained concepts and odd typography that could be read in multiple different ways. Reminds me of the joke about whether you pronounce it data or data
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Post by tdenmark on Oct 13, 2018 11:50:45 GMT -6
I don't find that table any easier to read. Once you realize that the Chainmail tables use a hyphen as a colon instead of a minus, they're really easy to understand. Sometimes a unit is downgraded in a situation. Like "Heavy Foot fights as Light Foot when..." this makes it a bit easier to read. Kind of like a column shift in the old Marvel Super Heroes game. I never had an issue with the em dash and my intent wasn't to "fix" that, but some people do and this layout eliminates that.
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Post by tdenmark on Oct 13, 2018 11:52:03 GMT -6
I did a reformat for personal use that cleaned up a lot of the difficult to read parts. I'd like to find some way to rewrite Chainmail, much like a retro-clone, and have clean layout, legible and organized text, and nice graphics. There was a nice attempt posted here some time ago called Grognard that I think safely falls within copyright. It uses the game mechanics, but all original text. Here is the reformatted combat table that makes a lot more sense. What's that 6+ for? I thought it was for every die rolled, all 6s are a kill, not that you rolled 2 die and get 4+4=8, that's still 2 fours, no kills. If you rolled 2 sixes, then you have two kills. Fair enough, though you're misinterpreting the table, totals aren't cumulative, if you have any bonuses a die could go over 6. It was formatted for consistency. You are correct that Chainmail uses a dice-pool system (long before West End Games or White Wolf "invented" dice pools).
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Post by clownboss on Oct 14, 2018 4:42:07 GMT -6
I never read those as minus. It follows the laws of nature to have more dice when your strong units fight increasingly weaker units, I reckoned.
Heavy Horse taking away 4 dice when playing against Light Foot can only happen in Bizarro World. Visualise your game as you read.
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Post by delta on Oct 17, 2018 20:18:03 GMT -6
Denying that the en-dash was a poor typographical choice later gets you Sup-IV: Gods, Demigods, and Heroes, where, for Armor Class, sometimes it's a separator and other times it's a negative sign. Good luck with that. Etc.
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Post by Stormcrow on Oct 17, 2018 20:30:41 GMT -6
They aren't even en-dashes. In the Chainmail table, they're good, old-fashioned hyphens. To their small credit, they didn't use actual minus-signs here.
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Post by Malchor on Oct 19, 2018 13:54:39 GMT -6
They aren't even en-dashes. In the Chainmail table, they're good, old-fashioned hyphens. To their small credit, they didn't use actual minus-signs here. The number of people here who know the difference between a hyphen and en-dash is astounding. One more sign these are my people.
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