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Post by leicamaster on Dec 27, 2011 23:00:59 GMT -6
So I have just finished reading through Chainmail and I am still a bit confused on the troop rules. Is there some guide concerning the use of Chainmail with OD&D?
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Post by Sean Michael Kelly on Dec 28, 2011 6:42:35 GMT -6
Besides the links that I PM'd you, one of the things that kept me in an infinite loop, was the "hyphens" in the Troop Combat Table on pg.41.... I kept thinking they were "negatives." From what I hear, it's a common misunderstanding that sends folks to either grow hair, or lose it.
Once you realize they are not negative numbers, it should all start clicking into place. The bottom line... if it's complicated, you're likely doing it wrong.
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Post by Mushgnome on Dec 28, 2011 7:42:52 GMT -6
So I have just finished reading through Chainmail and I am still a bit confused on the troop rules. Is there some guide concerning the use of Chainmail with OD&D? I am running a Chainmail/D&D game, and let me tell you, it's not an exact science. The more I play, the more I am convinced the d20-based "alternate combat system" is the D&D combat system. (I hope none of my players just heard me say that ) Anyway you wouldn't use the troop table with D&D because it's for 1:20 scale combat, not heroic 1-on-1 combat. For that you're supposed to use the Man-to-Man table, but the math is horribly broken--the weapon vs. armor tables in the Greyhawk Supplement are much more manageable. And don't get me started on the Fantasy Combat Table... So we usually end up using the troop table at 1:1 scale, because at least the math sort of works out. ps One final tip, the combat table are not the complete game; you actually have to read the book... I know you said you already did, so that's not directed specifically at you, but it's amazing how frequently I hear people ask questions about the tables that are clearly answered in the text of the book.
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Post by leicamaster on Dec 28, 2011 9:03:45 GMT -6
Thank you for the tips. I found a guide on grey-elf.com that really helped.
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Post by Sean Michael Kelly on Dec 28, 2011 9:59:50 GMT -6
Thank you for the tips. I found a guide on grey-elf.com that really helped. GreyElf is also a member of this forum, so yes, he's a excellent resource!
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Post by Deleted on Dec 28, 2011 10:06:43 GMT -6
Gary never used CHAINMAIL for D&D. This was neither an accident nor a coincidence.
CHAINMAIL is a great tabletop miniatures wargame.
IMNSHO, using CHAINMAIL for D&D is like trying to use Spitfire parts in a Mustang. They're both great WW2 fighter aircraft, but the bits are not interchangeable.
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Post by leicamaster on Dec 28, 2011 10:09:11 GMT -6
Gary never used CHAINMAIL for D&D. This was neither an accident nor a coincidence. CHAINMAIL is a great tabletop miniatures wargame. IMNSHO, using CHAINMAIL for D&D is like trying to use Spitfire parts in a Mustang. They're both great WW2 fighter aircraft, but the bits are not interchangeable. What did Gary use for combat?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 28, 2011 10:16:48 GMT -6
What did Gary use for combat? The "Alternate Combat System".
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Post by leicamaster on Dec 28, 2011 22:19:59 GMT -6
OK thanks for letting me know. I have yet to read through the LBB's since my package has not gotten here yet. Once it arrives then I will decide on all the combat. PS: I bet you have some great tales about playing with Arneson and Gygax.
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Aplus
Level 6 Magician
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Post by Aplus on Dec 29, 2011 0:02:03 GMT -6
In addition to Grey Elf's Forbidden Lore, Dan Boggs also has a great guide on using Chainmail with OD&D. You are supposed to be able to get it from his store here: sites.fastspring.com/apriorcrs/product/product_catalogHowever, I've been having trouble trying to download it. Perhaps you will have better luck!
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Aplus
Level 6 Magician
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Post by Aplus on Dec 29, 2011 0:08:10 GMT -6
And I think if you are using Chainmail rules, the troop rules are the way to go in most cases (fighting multiple men-types or humanoids). I don't think the fantasy table really has any value considering you already have the "alternate" system you can use for fantastic creatures, and it works with way more creatures, like every D&D/AD&D monster book ever.
The only drawback to the troop rules is that they are really lame when a PC only gets to roll 1 six-sided die. But when they get higher level and get to roll bunches of d6's, well, that's awesome and a lot of fun!
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Post by Sean Michael Kelly on Dec 29, 2011 7:10:34 GMT -6
In addition to Grey Elf's Forbidden Lore, Dan Boggs also has a great guide on using Chainmail with OD&D. You are supposed to be able to get it from his store here: sites.fastspring.com/apriorcrs/product/product_catalogHowever, I've been having trouble trying to download it. Perhaps you will have better luck! Yeah.... I'm not giving anybody my CC info for a free download. Just tried it. I think this is something I may have already. (Done by others on this board?)
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Post by DungeonDevil on Dec 30, 2011 1:03:00 GMT -6
Yeah, the melee table with the minuses ground my gears for the longest time before some nice folks here set me straight. That table was very ineptly formatted. Using CM for OD&D was/is not mandatory, and some like it, some don't, but once you get the hang of it, any wrinkles don't seem too bad. Now if there was some way to make better sense of the horrible post melee morale rules. Argh! Oh, and Happy Holidays and New Years to all!
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Post by Deleted on Dec 30, 2011 4:27:37 GMT -6
The only drawback to the troop rules is that they are really lame when a PC only gets to roll 1 six-sided die. But when they get higher level and get to roll bunches of d6's, well, that's awesome and a lot of fun! I agree. We tried a game using Finarvyn's RINGMAIL tables (there are some threads hereabouts somewhere) and had a blast. At high levels you tend to run out of d6's, which is something that I never thought I'd ever do.
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Post by cooper on Jan 4, 2012 12:38:01 GMT -6
I use the d6 combat when players are fighting 1-2 HD creatures and the alternate combat system for 3+
So a 4th level fighter attacks an ogre once, but can take out 4 orcs per round and even the 4th level mu gets 2+1 attacks.
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Post by jmccann on Jan 4, 2012 20:23:19 GMT -6
The only drawback to the troop rules is that they are really lame when a PC only gets to roll 1 six-sided die. But when they get higher level and get to roll bunches of d6's, well, that's awesome and a lot of fun! I agree. We tried a game using Finarvyn's RINGMAIL tables (there are some threads hereabouts somewhere) and had a blast. At high levels you tend to run out of d6's, which is something that I never thought I'd ever do. Here is the solution to that: www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B0017LSPZS/ref=mp_s_a_27?qid=1325730040&sr=8-27
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Post by thegreyelf on Jan 6, 2012 16:52:44 GMT -6
Thank you for the tips. I found a guide on grey-elf.com that really helped. GreyElf is also a member of this forum, so yes, he's a excellent resource! Thanks! Others have taken my start and ran way further with it--some better than I did, some with whom I disagreed. But I've been running my Age of Conan exclusively with Chainmail combat and I disagree 100% with anyone who says it doesn't work or that it's problematic. Heck, I even built an entire rpg based on Chainmail's man to man combat rules .
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Post by thegreyelf on Jan 6, 2012 16:55:49 GMT -6
I can't recommend this enough. It includes everything I did, plus notes from others, and takes it SO much further...
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Post by jmccann on Jan 8, 2012 19:43:47 GMT -6
Gary never used CHAINMAIL for D&D. This was neither an accident nor a coincidence. CHAINMAIL is a great tabletop miniatures wargame. IMNSHO, using CHAINMAIL for D&D is like trying to use Spitfire parts in a Mustang. They're both great WW2 fighter aircraft, but the bits are not interchangeable. What about Arneson? Did he fly a Spitfire? Was the Chainmail stuff in OD&D strictly a marketing ploy?
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Post by thegreyelf on Jan 11, 2012 18:44:20 GMT -6
No, D&D was originally built as a bolt-on for Chainmail, but Gygax immediately discovered that the alternate combat system was more to his liking. Arneson used a system of his own, which was culled from many different sources, and others here are far more qualified to speak on that than I am...
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Post by Sean Michael Kelly on Apr 1, 2012 19:19:53 GMT -6
We played OD&D 3lbb's w/Chainmail and used troop rules. I thought it went great and was quite enjoyable for all. (a "kill" = a "hit" for d6 damage) I think I'll run the next session the same way. I'm not as found of "man-to-man" but we did a couple combat using just that. (and a little of the "alternate."
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Post by jmccann on Apr 1, 2012 19:40:33 GMT -6
We played OD&D 3lbb's w/Chainmail and used troop rules. I thought it went great and was quite enjoyable for all. (a "kill" = a "hit" for d6 damage) I think I'll run the next session the same way. I'm not as found of "man-to-man" but we did a couple combat using just that. (and a little of the "alternate." How about an AAR? What was the situation? Did you use CM as written or one of the variants?
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Post by Sean Michael Kelly on Apr 2, 2012 3:54:23 GMT -6
How about an AAR? What was the situation? Did you use CM as written or one of the variants? AAR? ...sorry at this pre-caffeinated state I'm in, and the hour, I have no idea what this is. We pretty much used CM as written. (at least the troop chart) Each PC and/or monster has a troop rating with each HD representing a "man." Most were lower level HD monsters. (orcs, goblins, skeletons, etc) Every body involved including myself were in the "fudge it and lets keep playing" mode. To them, the hand-ful of d6's was satisfying.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2012 4:26:07 GMT -6
The only thing I've ever seen AAR for is "ascending armor rating". I don't know if that is what he means or not.
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Post by Sean Michael Kelly on Apr 2, 2012 5:10:48 GMT -6
The only thing I've ever seen AAR for is "ascending armor rating". I don't know if that is what he means or not. That was the only thing I could think of, but wouldn't really apply to the troop combat system as it's based on Attack Rating and Defense ratings. (Light Foot vs. Heavy Foot, for example = 1 hit die per two "men" with any 6's resulting in a "kill.") So, a 4 HD Hero, if a light foot, rolls 2d6 with each natural 6 being a hit vs. one Heavy Foot. ....thus the original meaning of a "hit die" wasn't for hit points, but for your attack.* The hit dice we then used for hit points when a gradation was desired, and weapon damage then used the same die. Basically, it just spread out the combat over several rolls, less "instant kill" while still remaining plausibly fatal. When variable weapon damage and variable "hit dice" were coupled with single d20 roll attacks, we've minimized, and at times, completely made it impossible for a one-shot kill in many cases. (dagger does d4 damage, fighter has d8-d10 HD with 23 hit points) It takes a lot more licks to get to the center of these Tootsie-Roll pops! (the troop system as originally conceived, or at least written, got right to the "crunch.") It would be interesting to see the progression in complexity and see just how much the combat systems have "slowed down" and/or non-lethalized combat.
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Post by coffee on Apr 2, 2012 9:23:43 GMT -6
From context, I'd guess AAR meant "After Action Report".
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Post by Sean Michael Kelly on Apr 2, 2012 9:49:51 GMT -6
Ah! Ok! :-)
Sent from my ADR8995 using ProBoards
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Post by keith418 on Apr 2, 2012 11:08:15 GMT -6
I wish I could learn how to play Chainmail here. It looks like a great game and there's no way to understand the origins of OD&D without it.
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Post by Mushgnome on Apr 2, 2012 11:35:43 GMT -6
I wish I could learn how to play Chainmail here. It looks like a great game and there's no way to understand the origins of OD&D without it. *raises hand* I'm always recruiting new players for my play-by-post campaign, a mash-up of Chainmail and Carcosa: odd74.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=muchgnomeWe are just about to begin our biggest combat to-date (5 PC's leading 80 marines vs. forces unknown), so stay tuned.
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Post by Sean Michael Kelly on Apr 2, 2012 13:56:58 GMT -6
I wish I could learn how to play Chainmail here. It looks like a great game and there's no way to understand the origins of OD&D without it. Keith, feel free to PM me for my phone number or other contact info and I'd be happy to talk you through how we use the rules. It's a heck of a lot of fun, once we "cracked the rubric." Do you have Chainmail? I'm still hoping someday I'll land an affordable original!
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