Saving Throws Origins/Evolution

[Arminath]

Some of the grogs here have been around for a long time, so I was wondering if any have stories/info/knowledge of how saving throws came about in the proto-games that became OD&D and how they changed/evolved into what was in OD&D?

[Deleted]

They evolved from OD&D's origin in wargames. The "saving throw" was a commonly used mechanic in miniature wargaming. One may assume the various categories was a way of differentiating the severity of the attack (just as in wargaming).


(edit to insert the word "origin")

[Harbinger]

From reading Chainmail I gather that it a game without hit points, it provides a way for more powerful units to avoid death. And in D&D it ended up playing the same role but only for specific instant-death effects.

But I'd also be interested in hearing from those who 'was there'

[Arminath]

Feb 22, 2012 15:18:00 GMT -6 @dubeers said:

They evolved from OD&D's origin in wargames. The "saving throw" was a commonly used mechanic in miniature wargaming. One may assume the various categories was a way of differentiating the severity of the attack (just as in wargaming).


(edit to insert the word "origin")

Infortunately I don't have access to Chainmail. How was the mechanic used in there compared to OD&D? Were different dice used (I glean 2d6 was the go to in Chainmail from reading here on the boards)...I guess I'm looking for comparisons and whatnot so I can see how it started and ended up.

[Deleted]

The same basic concept. For example, read the quote below:

Rocks: One of the most effective and easiest defenses against escalading attackers was a large, weighty piece of rock or stone dropped from above onto the heads of the besiegers. A rock dropped down a ladder will kill the first climber, and the second and third men on the ladder must roll a die to see if they survive, 1 -3 saving the second and 1 -5 saving the third. When thrown down on top of siege equipment and war machines rocks will do 1 point of damage.

As you can see, the saving throw determines how many troops survive a dropped rock.

Many of the wargames used saves like that. Artillery fire, for instance, the save would determine if a unit were badly damaged or merely disorganized ... things like that.

[Harbinger]

In Chainmail, the Wizard's fire ball or lightning bolt spells would kill any men or creatures which are struck by them, with the following exceptions:

Hero-types - Saved by a dice roll of 9 or better
Super Hero - Saved by a dice roll of 6 or better
Wraith - Saved by a dice roll of 7 or better
Balrog - Saved by a dice roll of 6 or better

(Giants and Dragons come next and they are pushed back and cannot be killed by the spells)

Unstated by the rules but pretty obvious from the target numbers is that you roll 2d6.

As with most miniature games, every unit has its own special rules. So you won't find a generic rule for saving throws. That's probably why the categories for D&D's saving throws are so arbitrary - they just happened to be the types of instant death effects that Dave Arneson had in his campaign.

[Arminath]

So the modern (in 1974) versions of Saving Throws came about from Dave's game? was there any tweaking of the numbers or did Dave just pick what felt right and that's how it was then on forward? Did Gary have any say in them or the categories prior to the LBB being published?

[aldarron]

Feb 23, 2012 2:50:54 GMT -6 Arminath said:

So the modern (in 1974) versions of Saving Throws came about from Dave's game?

Maybe. To my knowledge no one has laid claim to the categories. What I can say is that Dave used saving throws a lot in Blackmoor and the draft Mss of D&D had 6 categories. A a saving throw matrix expanded from the basic one in CHAINMAIL does feel like his handiwork.

Feb 23, 2012 2:50:54 GMT -6 Arminath said:

was there any tweaking of the numbers or did Dave just pick what felt right and that's how it was then on forward? Did Gary have any say in them or the categories prior to the LBB being published?

Those two tweaked each others numbers all the time, and Arneson originally used 3d6 not d20 when rolling on the table.