monster dmg question

[starcraft]

Hey all,

Something I noticed in M&T was the apparent inconsistency in damage potential for some of the 'big' monsters.

Breath weapon aside (which is like saying heavy machine gun aside, I know) dragons appear to attack 1 time for 1d6.

Ogres and hill giants get d6+2 and 2d6 damage respectively otoh.

I was considering a house rule for either 3d6 for dragons or 3 attacks (the old claw/claw/bite thinking) @ d6 each. While it is still 2 dice of damage, the appeal of 3 separate attacks is that the PC gets a break if 1 or 2 attacks miss (3d6 being a deal breaker in OD&D after all ).

At the same time, 2 extra attack rolls offends my minimalist sensibilities

Has anyone dealt with this? Opinions?

[talysman]

Almost everything does 1d6 damage, except for some really big stuff. Trolls, for example, are as big and as strong as ogres, but the notes specifically say that they don't use weapons to take advantage of this, the way ogres do, so trolls also do only 1d6 damage. Big but not gigantic creatures thus only do more than 1 die of damage if throwing boulders or using giant-sized weapons.

Gigantic creatures like the purple worm basically do one die of damage per 4 hit dice, no matter what kind of attack they use. I've worked this out in more detail, based on clues in the text, here:

9and30kingdoms.blogspot.com/2011/06/liber-zero-monster-build-tables.html

... but for monsters of more than 8 HD, I'd probably go with a bonus of +1 point if HD/4 has a remainder of 2, or +2 points for a remainder of 3, based on the giant race table. Some powerful supernatural types, like elementals, do extra damage not related to size, but otherwise, the damage is pretty regular.

Some of the small dragons are less than 8 HD, so they arguable fit the same pattern as trolls and should do only 1 die of damage, because they are using natural attacks. Large black dragons, medium green, and all blue, red, and golden dragons will do a minimum of 2 dice damage, if you follow the HD/4 rule.

[coffee]

Dec 10, 2011 22:34:55 GMT -6 starcraft said:

dragons appear to attack 1 time for 1d6.

Sure, if you use the 'alternate combat system' (which Gygax did as a default).

But if you use the Chainmail system:

Attack/Defense capabilities versus normal men are simply a matter of allowing one roll as a man-type for every hit die, with any bonuses being given to only one of the attacks, i.e. a Troll would attack six times, once with a +3 added to the die roll.

So a 12 hit die dragon would attack 12 times. With that many strikes, it wouldn't matter that the damage was only 1d6 each.

Of course, when you add Geyhawrk into the mix, you get the familiar claw/claw/bite routine of the 'alternate' combat system (i.e.; the one standardized in AD&D).

[starcraft]

Thanks for the replies all.

I think I'm leaning to a 1 damage die/4 HD rule for 'big' monsters.

The chainmail 1 attack/hd rule may make a level of sense (esp in mass combat), but it seems awful brutal to my poor PCs .

[cooper]

The chainmail and the hd/4 are actually pretty close. The hd/4 is augmented by better thac0.

Think of chainmail as a troll gets 6 attacks at thac20, or one attack at thac015 for 2d6-ish dmg. The whole purpose of the attack matrix was to translate the speed/power/ferocity of a creature into a single roll. That's the reason lots of hd=good thac0.

[starcraft]

Dec 13, 2011 11:14:13 GMT -6 cooper said:

The chainmail and the hd/4 are actually pretty close. The hd/4 is augmented by better thac0.

Think of chainmail as a troll gets 6 attacks at thac20, or one attack at thac015 for 2d6-ish dmg. The whole purpose of the attack matrix was to translate the speed/power/ferocity of a creature into a single roll. That's the reason lots of hd=good thac0.

That makes a lot of sense. One thing I am really noticing as I get back into old school versions of the game is just how lethal it is. Trolls, Ogres (with the d6+2 dmg), and nasties like Hyrdas are insanely powerful opponents now.

I ran a quick and dirty series of combats for 4 players the other night and was shocked at how deadly everything was.

4 1st level PCs (f/m, dwarf, magic user and cleric) vs 6 goblins was an absolute shock.

5 times we ran it with the party being completely wiped out once and only once did they escape with all 4 of them alive...

[aldarron]

Dec 10, 2011 22:34:55 GMT -6 starcraft said:

Hey all,

Something I noticed in M&T was the apparent inconsistency in damage potential for some of the 'big' monsters.

..... dragons appear to attack 1 time for 1d6.

Well, no.

Greyhawk was a game changer. One idea it introduced was standardized damages for this, that, and the other thing.

Such was not the case in 3LBB D&D.

Damage is rolled with a d6. How many d6 and what bonuses or penalties are the pervue of the DM.

True, most of the time, most man-sized monsters are going to be inflicting 1d6 in damage, but how many dice of damage bigger creatures inflict will depend on what the DM thinks is appropriate for the monster (customization). Here are the two quotes most relevant:

"Giant crocs score two dice of damage when they hit." UWA 35
"Typically, hits from a Sea Monster would inflict 3 or 4 dice of damage." M&T 15

Clearly a Dragon would follow along the same lines.

I guess that if you feel you need to set some standard, Talysmann's method is a pretty good one.

[starcraft]

Good catch aldarron. Not sure how I managed to miss that...

[rsdean]

With respect to dragons, at least, the breath weapon is quite enough to make up for the 1d6 the rest of the time. Most dragons are going to have 6 or more hit dice and an adult will do 4pts per die in breath (M&T 11). 24 pts is about 7 dice of damage (averaged; 7 would be 24.5), which is, as you point out, a lot.

[starcraft]

rsdean,

very true. I was just pointing out to a friend the other day that with no m/u spells specifically guarding against, say, white dragon breath, your average mage is in BIG trouble.

Even a successful save is going to put him/her down many times depending on how lucky they got with their hp rolls.

[rsdean]

However, you did say breath weapon aside, which I'll admit to not noticing when I posted. :-P

A d6/4Hd would give most dragons 2-3 d6 in damage, which would be similar to the Greyhawk claw/claw/bite numbers.

Protection from dragon breath sounds like an excellent spell research topic...wonder what level would be appropriate...

[kesher]

Hm, so, if I were inclined to give monsters an extra d6 of damage/4 HD, I think I'd also be inclined to give Fighting Men the same increase...

[Kris Kobold]

Feb 14, 2012 16:56:19 GMT -6 kesher said:

Hm, so, if I were inclined to give monsters an extra d6 of damage/4 HD, I think I'd also be inclined to give Fighting Men the same increase...

Why would fighting-man attacks need to fall in line with a monster's capabilities?

[darkling]

Feb 14, 2012 19:10:11 GMT -6 Kris Kobold said:

Feb 14, 2012 16:56:19 GMT -6 kesher said:

Hm, so, if I were inclined to give monsters an extra d6 of damage/4 HD, I think I'd also be inclined to give Fighting Men the same increase...

Why would fighting-man attacks need to fall in line with a monster's capabilities?

Why not? It makes a certain sense that trained fighters should increase their damage output as their HD increases, gives their players a cool unique bonus, and makes for a more brutal game all around. Win/win/win.

[Deleted]

Feb 14, 2012 19:24:46 GMT -6 darkling said:

It makes a certain sense that trained fighters should increase their damage output as their HD increases ...

Isn't that why their hit points go up? To stay in the fight longer and do more damage?

[geoffrey]

I like to think of OD&D dragons as relatively small (similar to the dragon getting slain by St. George). In other words, even the largest dragon in the 1974 rules can wander through 10' by 10' corridors.