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Post by kent on Dec 9, 2011 10:06:22 GMT -6
The Children of Húrin with the two cut passages put back in (both have to do with Dwarves and are very awesome—see UT) plus the whole of “ The Wanderings of Húrin”. Do you have the page numbers for UT for cut passages?
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Post by Falconer on Dec 9, 2011 14:43:02 GMT -6
Do you have the page numbers for UT for cut passages? Yeah. UT bottom of page 75 (“But in truth this helm had not been made for Men…”) till the top of page 76 (“…and an orc-arrow pierced his eye”) should be inserted into the top of page 79 of CoH. And, I will have to get back to you on what the other passage is.
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Post by Falconer on Dec 9, 2011 17:28:19 GMT -6
Alright, here is the other passage. It’s the middle paragraph on page 77 of UT, which gives Saeros’s history. It is greatly cut down on page 82 of CoT. “Saeros, son of Ithilbor, was his name. He was of the Nandor … and won the esteem of the king; and he was proud…”
Christopher Tolkien notes these two omissions on p. 287 of CoT, because they “are parenthetical to the narrative”. I guess Christopher thought these parenthetical stories would confuse readers unfamiliar with the First Age. You and I have no such unfamiliarity, though, and I happen to love these sort of side-stories, as they give the world a lot more depth. I have thought about typing up the two passages and putting them on little cards to slip inside my copy of CoT.
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Post by kent on Dec 9, 2011 20:06:06 GMT -6
That is interesting. I had thought there was a more complicated excision and inclusion between NiHH and CoH. Of the two passages I would have kept the first concerning the helm and dropped the second concerning Saeron, a flurry of names it does read like a footnote. I do have respect for Christpoher Tolkien as an editor. I actively ignore textual commentary on stories I am happy with so there may be some conflict ahead when I get stuck into HoME. I want to read the most important stories in their most finished form. In addition I want to read as much as I can in any form about Gondolin, Beren and Luthien I consider Beren and Luthien from the Silmarillion by itself one of Tolkien's greatest works. I'll give an analogy from some recent efforts of mine to get every rock album I own and I like in an unremastered form, ie a disk pressed in the late eighties or early nineties (pre-loudness war). There are vast not always conclusive discussions about the best masterings on various forums but I have to decide for myself by doing A/B comparisons on disks to test for improvements. For most on the forums the comparison is itself an interesting activity but I *hate* it and see it as a waste of my time. I want to find superior masterings and throw away the inferior copies as soon as possible and when Im done as I nearly am now I no longer have an interest in those forums. So I anticipate reading most of the HoME once and never reading most of it again once I have found those parts I mentioned above that I am looking for and interesting material new to me. Finally I have a great interest in the history of the Dwarves and welcome information on the whereabouts in the HoME of any of the following: - King Azaghal and the dwarves of Belegost and their fight with Glaurung.
- The first disturbance of the Moria Balrog in the time of Durin VI
- The war between the Dwarves and the Orcs of the 2790s TA.
Two books I have had since the dawn of time and I highly recommend are: The Complete Guide to Middle-earth - Robert Foster Brilliantly written entries, published in 1978, pre-UT. A Tolkien Bestiary - David Day Brilliantly illustrated with well written entries., published 1979.
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Post by Falconer on Dec 9, 2011 21:31:36 GMT -6
I had thought there was a more complicated excision and inclusion between NiHH and CoH. Oh yeah. There’s a lot of stuff in CoH that isn’t in NiHH, so it’s easiest to just read CoH (other than the two small sections I mentioned).[/quote] In addition I want to read as much as I can in any form about Gondolin, Beren and Luthien I consider Beren and Luthien from the Silmarillion by itself one of Tolkien's greatest works. II and III are going to be essential for you, then. King Azaghal and the dwarves of Belegost and their fight with Glaurung. IV.180-2 XI.75, 143 UT p. 75, 128, 147 The first disturbance of the Moria Balrog in the time of Durin VI The war between the Dwarves and the Orcs of the 2790s TA. HoMe isn’t especially dwarf-friendly, except XII (try 274-330, 382-4), which has some really interesting stuff. “The Nauglafring” is also an amazing story, IMO (II.112-6,221-42). It’s the foundational story about Dwarves and really reveals a lot in the long run. Just be warned that the Dwarves are straight-up evil in it. ;D The Complete Guide to Middle-earth - Robert Foster Brilliantly written entries, published in 1978, pre-UT. Yeah, I relied on it heavily for a long time. It is really well-researched. A Tolkien Bestiary - David Day Brilliantly illustrated with well written entries., published 1979. Meh, makes up too much of his own stuff, it’s misleading.
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Post by kent on Jan 21, 2012 18:19:14 GMT -6
IV.180-2 XI.75, 143 UT p. 75, 128, 147 HoMe isn’t especially dwarf-friendly, except XII (try 274-330, 382-4), which has some really interesting stuff. “The Nauglafring” is also an amazing story, IMO (II.112-6,221-42). It’s the foundational story about Dwarves and really reveals a lot in the long run. Just be warned that the Dwarves are straight-up evil in it. ;D I thought I responded to this already! Thanks. Volumes 1, 2, 4 and 6 arrived and the delivery of 3 got messed up. I read quickly through Vol.1 - The Book of Lost Tales I - and it confirms my suspicion that some of this material is simply badly written and the ideas are primitive and underdeveloped and often uninteresting. My opinion it goes without saying. I did like the threadbare paragraphs on The Coming of Mankind and would have welcomed a lot more there. I can see why C. Tolkien wanted to publish both volumes of The Book of Lost Tales in one. The second volume is already very interesting -- Telvilo, the Prince of Cats is a memorable future omission -- and the rest of the volume looks like it will get even better. == == A question for Falconer, Geoffrey or anyone. Does it say anywhere in the HoME volumes dealing with the LotR what happened to Beorn by the time of the War. Simply died of old age?
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Post by Falconer on Jan 22, 2012 0:35:24 GMT -6
A question for Falconer, Geoffrey or anyone. Does it say anywhere in the HoME volumes dealing with the LotR what happened to Beorn by the time of the War. Nope, it doesn’t say anywhere. If you want to see for yourself, VII is the only volume that really mentions him at all.
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Post by Falconer on Nov 21, 2012 17:28:29 GMT -6
Just for the record, there is a third passage in UT that is omitted from CoH: It’s on page 155 of UT, and starts: “For fear of that helm all foes avoided him…” and runs for four paragraphs ending with: “…in pride and rashness he thrust up the visor and looked Glaurung in the eye.” This was left out of CoH because it would have required explanation of how Túrin got the Dragon-helm back (which he would have lost when he was captured several chapters before), which Tolkien never explained. But I always loved this passage and wouldn’t want to miss it on re-readings. It brings the scene alive through dialogue instead of just explaining things. It should go somewhere on p. 178 of CoH, though there is no completely “clean” way to fit it in. But that doesn’t really matter. Edit: Full text posted here.
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Post by kent on Dec 3, 2013 15:40:15 GMT -6
Ive been reading through The Letters of JRR Tolkien and think it is worth pointing out that once you get to the mid 1950s, after The Fellowship of the Ring is published, Tolkien reveals some remarkable insights into his creation that I doubt can be found anywhere else. Some of these letters are very long (8-16 pages) and are directly responding to specific questions about Middle-earth from people he respects. I think the directness of his answers makes the letters at times more valuable than the HoME for certain kinds of information.
My favourite so far is Letter 156 to Robert Murray S.J. where discusses Gandalf's death and the manner of his change in being. He also discusses Sauron and fascinatingly addresses the absence of temples and such places of worship in Middle-earth.
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idrahil
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Post by idrahil on Dec 4, 2013 9:19:41 GMT -6
That sounds fascinating kent. I'll have to pick up a copy and check it out.
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Post by kesher on Dec 4, 2013 14:53:08 GMT -6
Kent--awesome find, and thanks for adding it to the thread! Luckily there's one night left of Hanukkah...
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Post by kent on Dec 4, 2013 15:42:33 GMT -6
So far there have been five or so of these really interesting long letters which were written in response to queries along the lines of 'have you given any thought to what lies behind these hints of yours?'. Yes he had! The queries were piling in from the moment the Fellowship was published and he responded to petitioners in kind so that the jesuit receives information presented in a form that will interest him. An intriguing difference to finding background information in the HoME is that he is not writing fiction, it is more informal and direct like asking a DM to explain his creation. [The UberDM].
There is for instance a letter [171] which only exists in draft because T. didn't send it, responding to a colleague(?) who took Tolkien to task for weak archaisms, 'tushery'. Tolkien makes some reasonable points. Personally Ive always held that fantasy stories need a gifted stylist to create in them any lasting effect. Archaisms are one approach, though you are on a knife edge because bad style is unreadable. In my view Tolkien language style is very good but not brilliant.
Oh, something else I remember which surprised me was that Tolkien considered the Rohirrim as Homeric, not necessarily dark age anglo saxon.
If I had thought of it before I would have made a note of what they contained for handy reference.
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Post by geoffrey on Dec 4, 2013 18:36:18 GMT -6
The letters are indeed informative. All too many people think that LotR is primarily about Power, whereas in at least one of his letters Tolkien explains that that is only a secondary theme. The work's primary theme is Death: the significance of elvish immortality, the sinfulness of Men clutching to earthly life rather than freely dying at their appointed hour, etc. This is underscored in the appendix regarding the deaths of Aragorn and of Arwen. Another point that interests me is how his conceptions over the decades became more "elevated". Galadriel, for example, became ever more like the Virgin Mary as the decades passed. She started out as merely one of the naughty Noldor, and at the time of the publication of LotR Tolkien conceived of her as a penitent. In Tolkien's final years, however, he had changed his mind and held Galadriel to be uninvolved with the Noldor's rebellion against the commands of the Valar, and thus guiltless on that score. It seems to me that in his old age, Tolkien became ever more concerned to bring his legendarium into conformity with Roman Catholic presuppositions. He mused about how the fallen angel Morgoth could possibly "create". He wondered how sentient beings such as orcs could conceivably fall below the level of the possibility of repentance. Etc. Many of these issues he never resolved before his death in 1973. If Tolkien was still alive (at the ripe old age of 121) and lucid, I have no doubt that his sub-creation would still be in a state of flux, and its hypothetical present state would have considerable differences from the state he left it in in 1973. I also suspect that it would STILL be unpublished. We'd have The Hobbit, the LotR, and repeated assurances that "I'm working on it." It was truly his life's work rather than something to "finish" and be done with.
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Post by kent on Dec 5, 2013 15:05:30 GMT -6
I can conceive of three phases of this kind of shaping of material: the white heat of creation; perfecting the story through language; reflection.
That could be something like: HoME; the published works including The Silmarillion and UT; his reflections in letters post LoTR publication.
My personal preference in order is:
1 perfecting the story through language - a clear favourite for me
2 the white heat of creation - slight preference for 2 over 3 3 reflection
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Post by kesher on Dec 8, 2013 20:41:02 GMT -6
Just have to report back and say I've been almost unable to put down the Letters. More engaging even than his biography, and masterfully edited.
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Post by kent on Mar 23, 2014 20:21:55 GMT -6
For those interested in those brief passages of text which were cut from Narn i Hîn Húrin in Unfinished Tales when Chris Tolkien came to edit The Children of Hûrin here they are from Falconer's notes above in this thread. The pdf should be the correct size with some border cropping to insert into your copy of The Children of Hûrin by fixing it with double sided tape to one of the blank pages at the back near the map. Then on page 79 put 'I' in the margin, on page 82 put a 'II' in the margin and perhaps on page 178 put a 'III' in the margin, I'll reconsider the placement of 'III' when Ive read the book again. You can get the pdf here
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Post by Falconer on Mar 24, 2014 9:48:32 GMT -6
Nice work, Kent. The only thing I spotted was that in the first paragraph of III, there’s a quotation mark in the word “master's” that ought to be made curly.
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Post by kent on Mar 24, 2014 13:17:40 GMT -6
LaTeX is funny about quote marks, I'll fix that.
Tick ... Tock ... Fixed.
I can't be bothered adjusting the png snapshot but the pdf is fixed.
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Post by kent on Apr 4, 2014 13:25:51 GMT -6
How do those of you who have read The Silmarillion visualise the Valar and those Maiar who are mentioned? I am not looking for references, which give impressions, so much as how you imagine them standing beside an elf or in movement.
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Post by geoffrey on Apr 4, 2014 18:44:55 GMT -6
How do those of you who have read The Silmarillion visualise the Valar and those Maiar who are mentioned? I am not looking for references, which give impressions, so much as how you imagine them standing beside an elf or in movement. Kent, since we all know that balrogs are at least 80' tall, and that balrogs are minor Maiar, we equally know that the other Maiar are probably 100+' tall. This implies that the Valar are taller than Godzilla (who is 168' tall). Perhaps 200' or so, with Manwe being an even 300' tall. (I'll post my serious answer after dinner.)
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Post by geoffrey on Apr 4, 2014 21:06:04 GMT -6
How do those of you who have read The Silmarillion visualise the Valar and those Maiar who are mentioned? I am not looking for references, which give impressions, so much as how you imagine them standing beside an elf or in movement. I imagine the Valar as tall as the tallest man or elf. They are composed of solid light, rather than of matter. (Remember the liquid light in the Book of Lost Tales.) I'm certainly not saying that they glow, but rather that they have none of the grossness and ponderousness of human beings. Their beauty is beyond that of men or of elves, but not in the sense of a "hot elf chick". One's impulse upon being in the presence of the Valar would be to venerate them, and their beauty would be so poignant as to be nearly painful, so one would cast down his eyes. In terms of movement, the Valar move with the swiftness and grace of light (though not literally in a scientific fashion of 186,000 miles per second). Again, they have no ponderousness. They get where they want to go with the ease and naturalness and tirelessness of a mountain stream, rather than humping it across the field. Of course, there is nothing of Star Trek teleporters about them. The Maiar I imagine similarly, though less so.
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Post by Falconer on Apr 4, 2014 21:30:10 GMT -6
I think John Howe did a good Ulmo: I imagine the Valar as well as the more godlike of the Maiar (eg., Ossë) to be giant and heraldic like that. Although the Ainur are SAID to be bodiless, they always appear bodily in the stories, even before the coming of the Children of Ilúvatar. (Though that may just be how the Children of Ilúvatar imagine them.) The exception would be Arien and her maidens, who passed through Fôs’Almir, the bath of flame, and thereafter is described as translucent, or whatever (don’t have my books with me). Balrogs I visualize as taller than the tallest Elves, but not by an order of magnitude. Maybe 9' tall. Other Maiar I generally imagine to be elvish/human in size, maybe a bit taller, but often even shorter (cf. Tom Bombadil). There is a HUGE variety of power among them, with many, many, many being “sprites” of various sorts (mermaids, leprechauns, wolves, whatever).
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Post by kent on Apr 5, 2014 14:29:56 GMT -6
Ive been reading The Silmarillion again - by the way the quality of the paper and binding of the 1st edition Allen & Unwin is first rate, as are all the A&U Tolkien 1sts: Letters, Biography and Foster's Guide. If Id known this I would have only collected 1st edition HoME volumes as the later printings feel cheap. Anyway Ive been reading the Quenta 1977 from the beginning, without realising before that I have tended to skip chapters I to V in order to start with Fëanor, but those first 20 pages are mindblowing. What I had remembered as obligatory mytho-poetic waffle is an essential guide to the understanding of the Elf kinds and their motivations between the two poles - the glory of light and the mystery of the stars, and Tolkien is careful to spread his interest all between.
I don't think either size or beauty is an essential quality of the Valar and Maiar. Size is not a convincing substitute for power and it raises the problem of an arms race measured in feet and inches. Aside from Thingol, who gained stature from his association with Melian, Men were physically bigger than Elves at the tall end, and I have always imagined the balrog as large man sized and Sauron too. Melkor does seem to have been very large in his fight with Fingolfin and yet not so big that it was ridiculous for Fingolfin to fight him so I see him as vaguely 8 ft. I can understand the temptation to make the great beings taller because of course the trolls and ents were.
I think Tolkien tried hard and succeeded in conveying a sense that Valar & Maiar as manifested were very like Men & Elves whose superiority was evident in a strangeness like that of Tom Bombadil or a radiance like that of Melian. I imagine the Elves were more beautiful and the Valar & Maiar represented themselves with more character.
Tolkien seems to have imposed a restriction on great beings changing shape unlike the more protean Greek gods et al. Sauron clearly did have that skill. Perhaps they found the notion offensive or pointless but had it within their power.
It would seem to be a mistake in an rpg to be too specific in nailing down the gods as different people are impressed by different aspects and qualities.
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Post by kent on Apr 11, 2014 17:48:31 GMT -6
It continues to surprise me how dense the content of The Silmarillion is given I can't remember how many times I have already read it. I have just finished Of The Sindar (7 pages). In this brief chapter among other things we learn:
The Dwarves are more adept at learning languages than the Sindarin Elves of Thingol. Their desire for knowledge, as with the Noldor, is hot because of their closeness to Aulë. There is a cliche in gaming about intelligent Elves but apart from the Noldor the Dwarves probably produced a greater body of smart innovators. Elves in the main are 'fair' and by no means charismatic for this. They are not far from a salon of heroin smoking aesthetes with, of course, a thin green line of heroic rangers like Beleg to protect them. The Noldor are different and that is why we like them - they are more like Boromir.
When the orcs first arrive en masse for mayhem the outcome of battles appears to be summarily dependent on the quality of arms and armour. So the average elf is as good as the average orc. This is something that is often forgotten perhaps because the stories of heroic elves were told and the stories of heroic orcs rarely so - excepting the Moria orc who made a fool of Aragorn and Boromir and would have slain Frodo were it not for his mithril shirt.
Tolkien seems to go back and forth making claims for this Elven smith and that Dwarven smith, however he is unequivocal that when producing artifacts of tempered steel the Dwarves stand alone.
Region is said to extend beyond the river Aros, and this has me wondering does the girdle of melian also extend beyond the woodlands.
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Post by geoffrey on Apr 11, 2014 20:48:49 GMT -6
The Dwarves are more adept at learning languages than the Sindarin Elves of Thingol. Their desire for knowledge, as with the Noldor, is hot because of their closeness to Aulë. There is a cliche in gaming about intelligent Elves but apart from the Noldor the Dwarves probably produced a greater body of smart innovators. Thank you for bringing this to our attention. I find distasteful many of the assumptions that a great number of people make about D&D dwarves: "Dwarves are Scottish." No, no, no, no. A thousand times, no. Look at the names of the dwarves in The Hobbit. Those are Germanic (not Celtic) names from the Elder Edda (not from the Mabinogion). "Dwarves are crude." No. They typically have far more intelligence, learning, and good taste than do men. "Dwarves carry battle-axes." No. Most carry hammers, mattocks, and/or swords. "Dwarves have little appreciation for natural beauty." Yes they do. Think about the Glittering Caves. "Dwarves are scared of water." Really? How in the world did the dwarves cross the stream in Mirkwood or escape from the Elvenking? "Dwarves don't like to ride horses." They do if the horses are small enough. Thorin and company all rode ponies. "Dwarves drink a lot." Where in the world does this notion of dwarves being drunken oafs come from? "Dwarves burp a lot." Seriously? "Dwarves seldom bathe." Oh, good grief. "Dwarves speak in a Scottish accent." See above. "Dwarves live in clans." d**n it. "Dwarves are greedy." Not in the sense of wanting more money for its own sake, but rather for the sake of the beauty they can bring out of stone and metal. Is someone who collects fine art greedy, or rather simply someone with good taste? "Dwarves smoke pipes." You're right! Thorin smoked a pipe. Let's leave off on that encouraging note.
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Post by geoffrey on Apr 11, 2014 20:59:25 GMT -6
It occurs to me that crude, stinky, drunken, burping, bearded "dwarves" with phony accents describes an entirely different group than dwarves.
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flightcommander
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Post by flightcommander on Apr 11, 2014 21:57:21 GMT -6
(burp)
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Post by kent on Apr 12, 2014 11:38:08 GMT -6
It would be great if we could keep this a moron free thread.
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Post by kent on Apr 12, 2014 11:45:17 GMT -6
>>"Dwarves are scared of water." Really? How in the world did the dwarves cross the stream in Mirkwood or escape from the Elvenking?<<
They are explicitly said to be fearful of the sea, even the sound of it, in Of The Sindar. However this is more likely to be because the sea is a barrier between Middle-earth and Aman and it would be an error to extend this phobia to rivers and lakes or water generally.
>>"Dwarves are greedy." Not in the sense of wanting more money for its own sake, but rather for the sake of the beauty they can bring out of stone and metal. Is someone who collects fine art greedy, or rather simply someone with good taste?<<
This is more difficult. I know some consider the dwarves 'evil'. I consider them to be tragic and overlooked in the history of Middle-earth - intentionally by Tolkien - they were after all an afterthought.
With regard to the notion of receiving payment for every labour. There is a sound moral sense behind such a practise adopted by Jews among others. People have a tendency to exaggerate in their own mind the grandness of their generosity. Payment or return favours can keep this inflation to a minimum.
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18 Spears
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Post by 18 Spears on Apr 12, 2014 14:15:58 GMT -6
It would be great if we could keep this a moron free thread. ... then you'uins need to stop posting here.
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