The Two Hyperboreas

[thegreyelf]

Another blog, where I attempt to reconcile two vastly different portrayals of Hyperborea in the Conan mythology.

wastedlandsfantasy.blogspot.com/2011/11/conan-two-hyperboreas.html

[Finarvyn]

Hyboria or Hyperborea? I think that REH's world was Hyboria. I believe that Howard placed a tiny nation called Hyperborea near Brythunia and Asgard, but the world was called Hyboria.

[Azafuse]

IMHO de Camp and Carter just based their Conan's short stories on Howard's beta notes, thus something hardly axiomatic.

[Ghul]

Fin -- He understands the difference; his essay entails the Howard representation of Hyperborea vs. the additions by Carter and de Camp.

One thing I'd add, Jason, is that Carter and de Camp also embraced the physical description of the Hyperborean race as mentioned in Tower of the Elephant:

In one of these dens merriment thundered to the low smoke-stained roof, where rascals gathered in every stage of rags and tatters-- furtive cut-purses, leering kidnappers, quick-fingered thieves,
swaggering bravoes with their wenches, strident-voiced women clad in tawdry finery. Native rogues were the dominant element--dark-skinned, dark-eyed Zamorians, with daggers at their girdles and guile in their hearts. But there were wolves of half a dozen outland nations there as well. There was a giant Hyperborean renegade, taciturn, dangerous, with a broadsword strapped to his great gaunt frame--for men wore steel openly in the Maul. There was a Shemitish counterfeiter, with his hook nose and curled blue-black beard. There was a bold-eyed Brythunian wench, sitting on the knee of a tawny-haired Gunderman--a wandering mercenary soldier, a deserter from some defeated army. And the fat gross rogue whose bawdy jests were causing all the shouts of mirth was a professional kidnapper come up from distant Koth to teach woman-stealing to Zamorians who were born with more knowledge of the an than he could ever attain.

Howard had an interesting albeit brief description of Hyperborea; for a more comprehensive treatment, I would recommend Howard's contemporary (and pen pal) Clark Ashton Smith. Smith's Hyperborea tales are among the finest stories I've ever read.

Also, as an aside, in Lovecraft's Shadow out of Time, he pulls together his own, Howard's, and Smith's worlds:

There was a mind from the planet we know as Venus, which would live incalculable epochs to come, and one from an outer moon of Jupiter six million years in the past. Of earthly minds there were some from the winged, starheaded, half-vegetable race of palaeogean Antarctica; one from the reptile people of fabled Valusia; three from the furry pre-human Hyperborean worshippers of Tsathoggua; one from the wholly abominable Tcho-Tchos; two from the arachnid denizens of earth's last age; five from the hardy coleopterous species immediately following mankind, to which the Great Race was some day to transfer its keenest minds en masse in the face of horrible peril; and several from different branches of humanity.

Lastly, I have a great respect for Roy Thomas's treatment of Conan, and I think your dismissal of his contributions is unfortunate, especially if you are championing the contributions of de Camp and Carter. Of course, YMMV.

Cheers,
Jeff T.

[thegreyelf]

Indeed, Jeff--we'll agree to disagree on Roy Thomas. .

I am aware of Smith's Hyperborea--while outstanding in its own right, I just don't think it really fits with Howard's Hyborian Age.

The descriptions of the Hyperborean race are pretty consistent throughout, this is true--tall, wiry and muscular, gray-skinned. They are even portrayed that way in the Dark Horse comic. The real, jarring difference is the portrayal of Hyperborea as a cold, grim, forbidding land in the north, and as a dystopian pseudo-paradise "beyond the north winds," which hearkens a bit more to Smith--at least the "beyond the north winds" part. I'm just a big fan of the Dark Horse comics, which I find to be FAR truer to Howard's conception of the world than the Marvel pieces ever were--their direct adaptations notwithstanding. When I read their description of Hyperborea, however, I found myself wondering what Bucziek and Nord were thinking, and wanted to try to reconcile the two divergent portrayals.

[thegreyelf]

Nov 12, 2011 13:05:23 GMT -6 Finarvyn said:

Hyboria or Hyperborea? I think that REH's world was Hyboria. I believe that Howard placed a tiny nation called Hyperborea near Brythunia and Asgard, but the world was called Hyboria.

Fin, REH's world was not Hyboria or Hyperborea.

It was Earth.

It was the Hyborian Age. It was only much, much later pastichers that began to call the world "Hyboria," and it's always been a pet peeve of mine.

Hyperborea is a nation to the east of Asgard, and it's not tiny--it's actually relatively large and corresponds to a proto-Finland and Russia. According to Howard it was one of the first Hyborian nations, and its people the first to use stone to build.

[Finarvyn]

Nov 12, 2011 22:18:41 GMT -6 thegreyelf said:

Fin, REH's world was not Hyboria or Hyperborea. It was Earth. It was the Hyborian Age.

This I knew. I wasn't trying to suggest that Hyboria was a different place, only that the words Hyboria and Hyperborea are similar and thought that you had gotten them confused.

REH's Hyborian Age is common enough in his writings but I don't recall him discussing Hyperborea (the country) much so the title of the thread seemed odd to me.

[thegreyelf]

Nov 12, 2011 22:40:01 GMT -6 Finarvyn said:

Nov 12, 2011 22:18:41 GMT -6 thegreyelf said:

Fin, REH's world was not Hyboria or Hyperborea. It was Earth. It was the Hyborian Age.

This I knew. I wasn't trying to suggest that Hyboria was a different place, only that the words Hyboria and Hyperborea are similar and thought that you had gotten them confused.

REH's Hyborian Age is common enough in his writings but I don't recall him discussing Hyperborea (the country) much so the title of the thread seemed odd to me.

Indeed...Howard's own mentions of Hyperborea are quite limited--he tells us only a few brief tidbits about the country in "The Hyborian Age," and aside from a passing mention in the draft of "The Phoenix on the Sword," doesn't mention it again. It was de Camp and Carter who took it and ran with it, establishing the idea of the Witch Kings and Louhi the Death Goddess, etc. The pseudo-novel Conan of Aquilonia deals with Hyperborea; Conan has to journey there to rescue his son, Prince Conn (Conan II), who has been kidnapped.

[Finarvyn]

I had totally forgotten about Conan of Aquilonia. In my defense, I haven't read the DeCamp/Carter books for a long time. My recent (last 10+ years) reading of Conan has only been the REH versions.

[Ghul]

Nov 12, 2011 22:15:58 GMT -6 thegreyelf said:

Indeed, Jeff--we'll agree to disagree on Roy Thomas. .

That's fine, but you present your recent essays in scholarly fashion, and I think all objectivity is lost when you dismiss an author like Thomas, whose contributions to the Conan mythology are just as significant as Carter and de Camp, and certainly broader than Busiek's run, which was disappointingly short-lived in comparison.

I am aware of Smith's Hyperborea--while outstanding in its own right, I just don't think it really fits with Howard's Hyborian Age.

Then I'm afraid your defense of Carter and de Camp rings hollow, my friend, and if I appear to challenge your assertions, try to imagine us sitting in a bar over a beer and having this discussion. What I'm saying is: you can't have it both ways. You can't be a Carter and de Camp apologist on the one hand, and on the other hand dismiss the notion that there is an established association forged between Howard's concept of Hyperborea and Smith's. I would draw your attention to book 2 of the Lancer series: Lair of the Ice Worm. This is one of my favorite non-Howard Conan tales, because I appreciate the way it draws the respective mythologies of Howard and Smith together.

The descriptions of the Hyperborean race are pretty consistent throughout, this is true--tall, wiry and muscular, gray-skinned. They are even portrayed that way in the Dark Horse comic. The real, jarring difference is the portrayal of Hyperborea as a cold, grim, forbidding land in the north, and as a dystopian pseudo-paradise "beyond the north winds," which hearkens a bit more to Smith--at least the "beyond the north winds" part.

I can agree with this. Certainly it is subsequent authors working harder to reconcile the respective visions of Howard and Smith.

I'm just a big fan of the Dark Horse comics, which I find to be FAR truer to Howard's conception of the world than the Marvel pieces ever were--their direct adaptations notwithstanding. When I read their description of Hyperborea, however, I found myself wondering what Bucziek and Nord were thinking, and wanted to try to reconcile the two divergent portrayals.

Jason, you're still not making any sense to me. You are saying one thing, but I find myself wondering if you have really even read these stories! In Volume 1 of the Dark Horse trade paperbacks, Busiek quickly goes into "Thomas" land when he fills in newly conceived stories between the Howard yarns. I would draw your attention to the three chapters (or individual issues) entitles "Gates of Paradise," "Ashes and Dust," and "Day of Farewell." You can't seriously tell me this is a Howard vision of Hyperborea. In part it is, the physical aspect of the race, but the setting, the city, its philosophies and so forth are clearly influenced by Smith as seen through the lenses of Carter, de Camp, and even Thomas.

Cheers,
Jeff T.

[thegreyelf]

Ah, yes, but what Busiek doesn't do is turn Conan into a stock Marvel superhero who is a paragon of good battling against the darkness. Thomas's Conan stories--again, his direct adaptations notwithstanding--are guilty of just that. It was very similar to the way Derleth treated the Cthulhu Mythos (though granted, by the time of Conan of the Isles, the worst of the de Camp pastiches, de Camp had done something similar).

As for the three Busiek chapters I'm talking about--those are the exact reason for the blog. But I still don't see it. Smith's Hyperborea, at least to my mind and interpretation, is night and day different than that of those presented in the Conan pastiches. It would seem you view it differently, which is fine. I'm not looking to dismiss Smith's cosmology. He was a seminal writer in Weird fiction and one cannot dismiss his Hyperborean cycle out of hand. I just don't see the parallels and connections you're drawing.

As far as Roy Thomas vs. the current Dark Horse series goes, the evidence is there in Howard scholarship--Thomas is not held in high regard by Howard scholars, many of whom feel, however, that the current Dark Horse series gets it right, or at least close to it, insofar as the portrayal of Conan and the Hyborian Age go. I would need time to dig up the essays I'm referencing, but I'll see what I can find.

That being said, I will concede one point--much of this was not Thomas's fault. His direct adaptations, as well as his "The Horn of Azoth," prove that he did (does?) have a handle on Conan. Unfortunately for him, what Marvel Comics demanded became increasingly more problematic as the series went on. There was less and less attention to Howard's world, and more of a directive to fit Conan into the greater Marvel Universe -- See the Marvel Handbook of the Conan Universe, wherein "Asgard" is spelled "Aesgaard." This is but one example of the lack of attention to detail that Marvel's editors had, and how they put their own interests ahead of the character.

So I'll grant that Roy Thomas himself is perhaps an unfair scapegoat for Marvel's treatment of the property. Hell, even he has said that in interviews--Marvel tied his hands and forced certain elements on him that had no place in the comics.

However, that's a discussion for another thread.

[Ghul]

Nov 13, 2011 8:29:06 GMT -6 thegreyelf said:

Ah, yes, but what Busiek doesn't do is turn Conan into a stock Marvel superhero who is a paragon of good battling against the darkness. Thomas's Conan stories--again, his direct adaptations notwithstanding--are guilty of just that. It was very similar to the way Derleth treated the Cthulhu Mythos (though granted, by the time of Conan of the Isles, the worst of the de Camp pastiches, de Camp had done something similar).

Well, this did happen from time to time, but not nearly as terribly offensive as what Derleth did the HPL "Mythos," turning it into some horrible Joseph Campbell mythology. I could cite many Conan tales (admittedly more from Savage Sword than from the full color comic, due to the different audiences aimed at) in which Thomas excelled, but of course this is a subjective analysis at best.

As for the three Busiek chapters I'm talking about--those are the exact reason for the blog. But I still don't see it. Smith's Hyperborea, at least to my mind and interpretation, is night and day different than that of those presented in the Conan pastiches. It would seem you view it differently, which is fine. I'm not looking to dismiss Smith's cosmology. He was a seminal writer in Weird fiction and one cannot dismiss his Hyperborean cycle out of hand. I just don't see the parallels and connections you're drawing.

I would say the Hyperborea pastiches of Carter et al. form a sort of bridge between Howard's conception and Smith's. Indeed, I find the blend of concepts, particularly Busiek's quite intriguing!

As far as Roy Thomas vs. the current Dark Horse series goes, the evidence is there in Howard scholarship--Thomas is not held in high regard by Howard scholars, many of whom feel, however, that the current Dark Horse series gets it right, or at least close to it, insofar as the portrayal of Conan and the Hyborian Age go. I would need time to dig up the essays I'm referencing, but I'll see what I can find.

Here is where my hackles rise! More often than not I would regard these "scholars" as "pseudo-scholars" whose assumptions and dispositions are no greater than yours or mine, Jason. I'm afraid I have little respect for the great bulk of them. S.T. Joshi, however, is a man whose work I can admire.

That being said, I will concede one point--much of this was not Thomas's fault. His direct adaptations, as well as his "The Horn of Azoth," prove that he did (does?) have a handle on Conan. Unfortunately for him, what Marvel Comics demanded became increasingly more problematic as the series went on. There was less and less attention to Howard's world, and more of a directive to fit Conan into the greater Marvel Universe -- See the Marvel Handbook of the Conan Universe, wherein "Asgard" is spelled "Aesgaard." This is but one example of the lack of attention to detail that Marvel's editors had, and how they put their own interests ahead of the character.

So I'll grant that Roy Thomas himself is perhaps an unfair scapegoat for Marvel's treatment of the property. Hell, even he has said that in interviews--Marvel tied his hands and forced certain elements on him that had no place in the comics.

However, that's a discussion for another thread.

This I can agree with. It became a problem later in the run, and it got worse and worse. It's one thing to throw Elric in a Conan yarn; it's a whole other can of worms when you throw Wolverine in there.

Cheers!

[stevemitchell]

Also, the Smith and Howard versions of Hyperborea have nothing in common save for the name. Smith's continent of Hyperborea existed anywhere from 200,000 to 700,000 years before the time of King Kull (depending on whose Mythos timeline you believe). Presumably survivors from Smith's continent carried the name with them to the Thurian mainland, where it resurfaced much, much later.

[rjkuntz]

I would agree that there is sparse, if any, correlation between Smith's and Howard's Hyperborea other than the use of a familiar mythological area by both.

A good article at wikipedia on Hyperborea: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperborea

It was used by everyone and placed everywhere throughout its fantastic history.

[thegreyelf]

Wow, it's hard to fathom that I wrote that blog over a year ago. Time certainly does fly.

One of the most interesting developments since then that is germane to this thread is that Dark Horse brought Roy Thomas on board to tell the tale of Conan's travels along the Road of Kings! I haven't read this particular volume, yet, but I really think I need to.