Missile-Projectile Weapons/Man-to-Man?

[sepulchre]

Are missile/projectile weapons addressed in the Man-to-Man component? If so any ideas on how fire rate would be handled? I realize 'Man-to-Man' may simply refer to list combat and this question may be seeking to interpret more broadly single combat.

[Mushgnome]

Yes. It is not explicitly stated but I assume the rate of fire is 1.

1 roll per 1 man per combat turn.

[cooper]

The melee turn might be exactly the same as mass combat, because 0d&d references elves being able to split move and fire and you can't do that without 2/1--basically;

Initiative
Move
2 Missile fires (*or 1/2 move /missile/ 1/2 move)
Melee (multiple rounds as neccessary)
Repeat.

Multiple rounds of melee doesn't mean you get multiple rounds of missile fire and there's no reason for MtM to be any different than mass combat-indeed it says explicetly that mass combat rules apply except were specifically noted.

*non elves can move and fire 1x, but cannot move after they fire. This ability simulates the elves attacking and then blending back into the forrest.

[Mushgnome]

Nov 6, 2011 8:53:50 GMT -6 cooper said:

Multiple rounds of melee doesn't mean you get multiple rounds of missile fire

Thanks for pointing this out, Cooper... I learn something new about Chainmail every time!

[cooper]

Thanks, it's actually a bit more complicated with how moves work. Technically, bowmen get their 2nd shot at the end of the turn provided they aren't in melee by this time, so it goes:

Initiative
Missile fire
Melee (multiple rounds)
*Missile fire (if not in melee--and not firing into active melee i.e. firing at a 3rd group). You of course could allow firing into melee, but you risk hitting allies.

One needs to interpret heavy crossbows, which states they add +1 to dice rolls. So, what I do is 1/2 rof, but +1 dmg (and excellent range). Now range modifiers are +1/0/-1. So in effect, because the awesome range of heavy crossbows, they will more often than not be firing from short range, which means that they get a +1 much more often as well.

*short and longbows only.

[sepulchre]

Something we are bandying about over at the Alehouse, does anyone have any thoughts on why these rates of fire are so wildly different from what we have discerned from historical research and re-enactments? I realize that the # of arrows is not specified in mass combat in Chainmail, that is why I framed my initial question in terms of the 'man-to-man' battery, guessing that maybe the number of arrows might become a consideration. Anyway any thoughts?

[Mushgnome]

Nov 7, 2011 9:05:04 GMT -6 sepulchre said:

Something we are bandying about over at the Alehouse, does anyone have any thoughts on why these rates of fire are so wildly different from what we have discerned from historical research and re-enactments? I realize that the # of arrows is not specified in mass combat in Chainmail, that is why I framed my initial question in terms of the 'man-to-man' battery, guessing that maybe the number of arrows might become a consideration. Any way any thoughts?

The simple answer to your question is that Chainmail has no rules for ammunition. Missile fire is completely abstract and each attack roll could represent any number of actual physical arrows.

[cooper]

The answer is people aren't just going to sit there while you lob arrows at them. Either they will be out of range, or they will charge you. The CM rules can be assumed to account for 1 arrow every 6 seconds from an archer, as can the MtM, the issue is your window of missile fire is limited. Once the hail of arrows start, people are going to do something about it. A short bow's range in CM is 150 yards, world record sprinter can do 100 yards in 8 seconds. Obviously a man in armor is slower, but the archer doesn't always "fire at will".

1) he will stop firing early to draw a sword
2) he will perhaps take time to aim if he isn't firing into a large mass
3) his first shot might be out of range
4) he will wait for a command "don't shoot till you see the whites of his eyes"

Yes, turn is 1 minute, but the missile fire portion of the turn is not continuous. The longest part of the turn is made up of melee rounds, during which archers cannot fire. Even in MtM, the missile fire portion might only last 12 seconds.

[sepulchre]

Mushgnome wrote:

Missile fire is completely abstract and each attack roll could represent any number of actual physical arrows.

Thanks Mushgnome, this I was aware of, but did not make explicit. I imagined that there might be some exception in the 'man-to-man' battery.


Cooper wrote:

The CM rules can be assumed to account for 1 arrow every 6 seconds from an archer, as can the MtM, the issue is your window of missile fire is limited.

That sounds about right, how did you pull this from the RAW in Chainmail?

Either they will be out of range, or they will charge you.

The assumption here is that the unit or single man is in range, but certainly they could fall back. Indeed, charging is where the rate of 10 arrows/minute becomes untenable and possibly irrelevant.

Failing to 'fire at will':
1) he will stop firing early to draw a sword
2) he will perhaps take time to aim if he isn't firing into a large mass
3) his first shot might be out of range
4) he will wait for a command "don't shoot till you see the whites of his eyes"

1) If the archer is not going to continue to loose arrows up until the very last moment (possible morale chk.) drawing a melee weapon would certainly come into play
2)Most of the demonstrations I have seen involve an archer loosing 8-10 arrows/minute at a target. Granted the target would be considered short range. However, I imagine questions concerning longer ranges is assumed in the abstraction involving range modifiers.
3) True, the full fire rate could only be applied if the opponent appeared to be within the s/m/l range familiar to trained and seasoned archer. That assumption, however, does not seem unreasonable.
4) Well, certainly this modifies the engagement of the archer might possibly mitigate the range modifier.

the missile fire portion of the turn is not continuous. The longest part of the turn is made up of melee rounds, during which archers cannot fire. Even in MtM, the missile fire portion might only last 12 seconds.

Fair enough, yet this interpretation of time assumes that all adversaries are within closing range. If a unit advanced at its normal rate without charging, wishing to use its shield adjustment vs. missiles (bear with me, I may be thinking AD&D) instead of bringing upon themselves further harm, it seems to me that an adjusted fire rate more akin to historical demonstation might be fitting.

[cooper]

Well, archers are also allowed to move around 60" and still fire, and if they win initiative they can move even more and still fire, i think the assumption is that there is a lot going on on the battlefield that makes it different than what someone can do at the practice range.

[sepulchre]

Cooper wrote:

the assumption is that there is a lot going on on the battlefield that makes it different than what someone can do at the practice range.

Agreed and a good cautionary note. The example I gave really rests on an archer being stationary. I would imagine that having to aim at a target is assumed in the 1arrow/6 second rate involves a fair amount of concentration that would mirror firing missiles at an advancing unit on a battlefield. Some have argued that the abstract nature of the fire rate implies landing 'the best potential shot' within that 60 second period. This point of view, however, seems to coincide with the concentration needed to find a target at various ranges during a demonstation and landing a shot that would chip away hit points in a game situation. That said, a unit employing the charge maneuver would negate any consideration of this.

[Mushgnome]

Also remember in Chainmail you are rolling "to kill" and not "to hit." A successful roll represents a "fatal blow," and there are no rules for "flesh wounds" or "glancing blows."

If you wanted to, you could interpret this as "the arrows continue to fly, but due to the confusion of hand-to-hand combat, there is no chance of a kill-shot. " Your enemy might be a pincushion of arrows, but it takes a coup-de-grace from an allied melee fighter to finish them off.

[sepulchre]

Mushgnome wrote:

Remember in Chainmail you are rolling "to kill" and not "to hit."

This is true, given that arrows and swords do the same amount of damage in Chainmail and the 3LBBs, but considering a fire rate by round instead of turn does not appear to me to shift the initial balance.

If you wanted to, you could interpret this as "the arrows continue to fly, but due to the confusion of hand-to-hand combat, there is no chance of a kill-shot. Your enemy might be a pincushion of arrows, but it takes a coup-de-grace from an allied melee fighter to finish them off.

Indeed, I really like that perspective, well said. That certainly appears to be an apt interpretation of missile fire into a unit in which one is rolling 'to kill' but is unable to achieve the 'coup-de-grace'.


A slight digression: Something T.Foster over at the Alehouse suggested that I thought was quite clever for dealing with the specific nature of missile fire in an abstract context:

every round in which you shoot in addition to your attack rolls roll a 1d20 ammo check -- a roll of 1 (or less) means you're out of ammo; cumulative -1 DM per round of shooting beyond the first.

Nagora posted this cleverness:

Each "shot" uses 1d6-level extra ammo (min 0, of course) above the single arrow/stone/bolt that is actually required. Thus, characters above 5th level don't waste any.

Or one could dispense with counting arrows and assume arrows to be salvaged from felled opponents, or picked up from the battlefield, etc.

[aldarron]

Nov 7, 2011 12:55:25 GMT -6 sepulchre said:

Some have argued that the abstract nature of the fire rate implies landing 'the best potential shot' within that 60 second period. This point of view, however, seems to coincide with the concentration needed to find a target at various ranges during a demonstation and landing a shot that would chip away hit points in a game situation. That said, a unit employing the charge maneuver would negate any consideration of this.

That's not how ranged combat usually worked, at least, not until the invention of the rifled barrel.

The archers etc. are not usually aiming at "targets", they are lobbing volleys at a single large and amorphous target - the enemy unit. Trying to take aimed shots on a battlefield as one does on the practice field while maintaining a reasonably safe distance is rarely possible.

[jacar]

Nov 10, 2011 9:10:08 GMT -6 aldarron said:

That's not how ranged combat usually worked, at least, not until the invention of the rifled barrel.

The archers etc. are not usually aiming at "targets", they are lobbing volleys at a single large and amorphous target - the enemy unit. Trying to take aimed shots on a battlefield as one does on the practice field while maintaining a reasonably safe distance is rarely possible.

While very true on the big battlefield, when you are talking about man-to-man combat, you are talking something as small as Dungeon Party v Monsters up to a small skirmish of say 30 combatants per side. In both cases, we are probably looking at archers picking out targets to aim at. BTW, the ranges represented in MtM rules would probably be smaller than 50 yards for the most part.

[sepulchre]

...they are lobbing volleys at a single large and amorphous target - the enemy unit.

Agreed, and your point is one of the reasons I framed the question in terms of the 'Man-to-Man' battery.

Trying to take aimed shots on a battlefield as one does on the practice field while maintaining a reasonably safe distance is rarely possible.

Imagine this however: Departing from the RAW, consider missile weapons in the same light as melee weapons, i.e, 1 projectile/rd. [(10/turn) (8 U&WA)].

To do this accurately (as the ranges given reflect firing at an arc) the effective range for a longbow, for example, must be altered by dividing by 10 (Delta wrote a good piece on this), the effective range (s, m, l) being 70 yds (210 yds outdoors (AD&D)/mass combat range). If a skirmisher charges at 15"/turn he moves 15 yards/rd (10 rds/turn). If he is 45 yards from an archer, he will be fired on at least twice (thrice if the archer is willing to risk the shot) before engaging him.

Another key place I am departing with the RAW, barring closing range, is to dice for initiative for missile weapons only in relation to other missile weapons. Otherwise, at the beginning of every 6 second melee round I would be dicing initiative which seems pointless in the example barring the skirmishers carrying missile/projectile weapons themselves.

Again, I am just trying to explore the apparent discrepancy betweem real world demonstrations of fire rates and that of the game, and to suggest a possible alternative, while attempting understand what is assumed in the abstraction as it is provided in the game.

[aldarron]

Offhand I don't think you are really departing from btb in your example, or at least I would not think of checking initiative in a man to man situation until opponents were within Melee distance (3"), unless they were both shooting at each other.

[sepulchre]

Aldarron wrote:

don't think you are really departing from btb...would not think of checking initiative in a man to man situation until opponents were within Melee distance (3"), unless they were both shooting at each other.

Yeah, thanks, looks like I conflated Chainmail initiative with that of AD&D [discharge of missiles is (d) out A-H (61 DMG.)]. BTB then, missile weapons in 'Man-to-Man' are deadly, indeed.

[sepulchre]

A bit of thread necromancy:

Cooper wrote:

A short bow's range in CM is 150 yards, world record sprinter can do 100 yards in 8 seconds.

I missed this part initially, but had considered it as well later on.

So maybe someone can address the movement rates for charging, because I have not been able to square them with my rates of sprinting in the past, much less that of olympic sprinters. Are the charging rates just a gamism to fit within the tabletop dimensions or have I overlooked something? If a group of combatants are being fired on does the charge speed accurately reflect when they will engage their adversaries?

[Deleted]

My God.

It's an abstract wargame. Archers get two shots per turn because it makes the game give good historical results. Rate of fire is the same Man to Man and 1:20.

Don't make this more d**n complicated than it needs to be.

[sepulchre]

There are plenty of comments in the thread that lend to exploring the considerations behind the rate of fire as written and how they translate into the MTM. Understanding the fire rate for missile weapons is not a particularly foreign topic to this board or others. Also Cooper's point about sprinting is a valid one when considering the charge rate.

Thinking on this now, I imagine anyone attempting to close distance at the kind of rate he suggests would suffer pretty heavily from fatigue once engaging. From my days in track whether sprinting a 100 or a 440 meter, one was pretty out of breath by the time you reached the finish, to follow up with a melee would have been tough. Maybe the charge rate as written leaves room to engage before exhaustion sets in.

I suspect taking this kind of sprint into account might be useful when considering 'fleeing'.