Length of a Combat Round

[Harbinger]

Jan 6, 2012 21:36:33 GMT -6 WSmith said:

Very interesting thread. I generally don't sweat the exact time a "round" takes... except that movement matters. FWIW, and I am not sure this is relevant, a 10 second combat round would mean 6 combat rounds in a combat turn... as in 1d6. I dunno. Just brainstorming.

This would address my concern with the odd 6 or 12 'turn' duration of spells. If they are actually 6 or 12 combat rounds in duration, then that's 1 - 2 minutes.

Thanks!

[Stormcrow]

Jan 7, 2012 20:59:13 GMT -6 cooper said:

What intrigued me the most was it's initial assumption about combat, if you look at the magic-user and how it evolved, or more accurately, subsequent weakening, by the time of the greyhawk supplement, it is possible to attribute this to the change from being able to cast one spell per combat turn to being able to cast one spell per round. This heightened the power of the magic users magic by ten fold! So it's little wonder that gygax decided to cut their hit points down considerably.

Er, uh, what? Lowering the magic-user's hit die wasn't about the length of combat rounds; it was about giving fighters more hit points than magic-users. There are textual references to this.

I know you've got some kind of theory about turns changing into rounds or some such, but I don't subscribe to it. The terms were simply used carelessly until the distinction between turn and round was established.

[cooper]

Except turn and round were clearly established in CHAINMAIL and they meant specific things and weren't just thrown around as synonyms--as you well know since you started the thread explaining to everyone the multiple rounds per turn!

Wizards in chainmail cast spells once per turn and fighters attacked per round--if by the time of greyhawk supplement, everyone was having wizards casting spells every round, then yeah---the fighter needs more hitpoints.

[Stormcrow]

A round in Chainmail isn't the same thing as a round in D&D. In Chainmail a complete melee takes one turn, and is finished when one side is killed or fails its morale check. Rounds are simply the sequence of attack/morale you cycle through until the melee is concluded. Wizards don't cast spells in melee because they are considered artillery pieces.

But in D&D an encounter lasts a turn, and it is broken into rounds that consist of all kinds of activities, including casting spells. Your choices of what you can do in a round have changed. And the D&D books do use "turn" to mean "encounter round" as well as "movement turn." There is no reason to think that magic-users operate on the old Chainmail system anymore. This wasn't a change with Greyhawk.

[cooper]

Where in men and magic do gygax and arneson inform the reader that the combat turn changed from chainmail? Why would gary feel the need to pen an article in strategic review outlining the change to a 1 minute round on account of lethality if the text of the rules didn't imply a 1 minute turn?

It is perfectly acceptable and encouraged to run combat using chainmail w/the updated and expanded fantasy supplement we call d&d and many things in the text support doing so.

[aldarron]

cooper said:

... Why would gary feel the need to pen an article in strategic review outlining the change to a 1 minute round on account of lethality if the text of the rules didn't imply a 1 minute turn?

Which SR article Coop?

[Zenopus]

Re-reading this thread, to me the weight of the evidence suggests:

Chainmail: turns are "roughly one minute" (pg 8), one turn contains multiple rounds of combat of unspecified length (pg 25).

OD&D: movement is in 5 min blocks, and "two moves constitute a turn" (UW&A, pg 8). In melee, "ten rounds of combat per turn". No further time lengths are indicated for combat, so some (many?) assume that in combat 1 round = 1 min, 10 rounds = 1 turn (10 min). And IIRC this is how it was interpreted in the later D&D rules. But note it never says that the combat turn is the same length of time as a movement turn. Furthermore, as Aldarron stated above certain spells in M&M have similar durations in turns as in Chainmail, suggesting they were intended to last but for minutes. For example, Levitate is 6 turns in Chainmail (6 minutes), 6 turns + casters level in turns for both OD&D and Holmes.

Holmes: Clarifies that movement turns are 10 min, and that rounds are ten sec, with 10 per combat turn (100 sec).

The turn/round lengths are actually remarkably consistent if looked at this way.

[cooper]

Jan 27, 2012 13:15:59 GMT -6 aldarron said:

cooper said:

... Why would gary feel the need to pen an article in strategic review outlining the change to a 1 minute round on account of lethality if the text of the rules didn't imply a 1 minute turn?

Which SR article Coop?

Woops, I keep messing that up. Dragon mag. #15
knights-n-knaves.com/phpbb3/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=9176&start=15#p129694

A to piggyback on zenopus' point. Exploration turns are not just 10 min. Underground exploration turns are 10 min, but outdoor turns are 1 day, so clearly exploration and combat use variable turn lengths.

[harami2000]

Jan 27, 2012 13:39:38 GMT -6 Zenopus said:

Re-reading this thread, to me the weight of the evidence suggests:

Chainmail: turns are "roughly one minute" (pg 8), one turn contains multiple rounds of combat of unspecified length (pg 25).

OD&D: movement is in 5 min blocks, and "two moves constitute a turn" (UW&A, pg 8). In melee, "ten rounds of combat per turn". No further time lengths are indicated for combat, so some (many?) assume that in combat 1 round = 1 min, 10 rounds = 1 turn (10 min). And IIRC this is how it was interpreted in the later D&D rules. But note it never says that the combat turn is the same length of time as a movement turn. Furthermore, as Aldarron stated above certain spells in M&M have similar durations in turns as in Chainmail, suggesting they were intended to last but for minutes. For example, Levitate is 6 turns in Chainmail (6 minutes), 6 turns + casters level in turns for both OD&D and Holmes.

Holmes: Clarifies that movement turns are 10 min, and that rounds are ten sec, with 10 per combat turn (100 sec).

The turn/round lengths are actually remarkably consistent if looked at this way.

Much of the grief in reconciling time periods parallels the discussion within the SoA Ancients rules which were one of the sources for Chainmail. One of the problems therein is trying to square the circle of movement rates vs. combat round length/battle duration at various scales, resulting in the former being an accurate representative of distance that individual troops could move within a small time segment of the actual combat round (for the larger scale battle).

[aldarron]

Empire of the Petal Throne, which was written before Greyhawk was published and is very closely based (word for word in some places) on the 3lBB's. It says "A normal "turn" is assumed to take ten minutes. In combat, however, there are ten "combat rounds" per turn of one minute each." section 724 "The Combat Round"

Nov 4, 2011 11:08:11 GMT -6 aldarron said:

Nov 4, 2011 10:03:45 GMT -6 @gronanofsimmerya said:

The combat turn in EPT is one minute because that's what I used when I taught Phil to play D&D.

We always read "ten minute turn" as only applying to dungeon exploration.

Thanks Mike! Phil's wording is actually a little ambiguos in that paragraph. It looks like he is saying the rounds are one minute each, but I suppose he meant the Combat Turns are one minute each!

Looked through the EPT mimeo version just made available and found it a little different:
"Moves in battle are fast and furious: there are ten “combat rounds” to the normal “move”" section 550

So how long is a combat move? <shrug> we are only told it is "fast and furious".

There is a comment on the "exploration move" with is essentially the same as that in OD&D - 5 minutes. So it does look as if Barker's intention was that combat rounds were matters of seconds in a "fast and furious" one minute move, as we've been suggesting was the intention for D&D. Otherwise we'd be talking about ten 30 second rounds in a "fast and furious" 5 minutes. I don't think that's what he meant.

[busman]

Mar 16, 2012 9:17:40 GMT -6 aldarron said:

Empire of the Petal Throne, which was written before Greyhawk was published and is very closely based (word for word in some places) on the 3lBB's. It says "A normal "turn" is assumed to take ten minutes. In combat, however, there are ten "combat rounds" per turn of one minute each." section 724 "The Combat Round"

Nov 4, 2011 11:08:11 GMT -6 aldarron said:

Thanks Mike! Phil's wording is actually a little ambiguos in that paragraph. It looks like he is saying the rounds are one minute each, but I suppose he meant the Combat Turns are one minute each!

Looked through the EPT mimeo version just made available and found it a little different:
"Moves in battle are fast and furious: there are ten “combat rounds” to the normal “move”" section 550

So how long is a combat move? <shrug> we are only told it is "fast and furious".

There is a comment on the "exploration move" with is essentially the same as that in OD&D - 5 minutes. So it does look as if Barker's intention was that combat rounds were matters of seconds in a "fast and furious" one minute move, as we've been suggesting was the intention for D&D. Otherwise we'd be talking about ten 30 second rounds in a "fast and furious" 5 minutes. I don't think that's what he meant.

Doesn't the delta between the mimeo and the TSR released version solidify that it was in the process of editing/translating to TSR rules that the clarified definition of 1 combat turn/round = 1 minute versus exploration = 10 minutes?

It seems like rock solid proof that Gygax intended/clarified this in the EPT rules as released.

[aldarron]

Mar 16, 2012 11:41:47 GMT -6 busman said:

Doesn't the delta between the mimeo and the TSR released version solidify that it was in the process of editing/translating to TSR rules that the clarified definition of 1 combat turn/round = 1 minute versus exploration = 10 minutes?

It seems like rock solid proof that Gygax intended/clarified this in the EPT rules as released.

Nope.

I wouldn't assume that it was Gygax who inserted that into EPT, in any case, there's nothing clear about "rounds per turn of one minute each." Are the rounds one minute or the turns? The sentence starts with "However" as if saying this is something different from the previous ten minute turn. I honestly don't know how long an EPT round was meant to be from that statement, but the more I read it the more I think it might well mean the turns were one minute.

At some point Gyggax clearly did adopt a one minute combat round and wrote that into AD&D. No debate there, and who knows, it may have been as early as 1974 (though the FAQ seems to indicate otherwise), and it is possible that Gygax was trying to re-engineer EPT to fit that (but then why not alter Holmes too?).

That doesn't much matter though; the argument here is that the great bulk of the OD&D rules were not written with 10 minute "Turns" in mind.

[waysoftheearth]

It's very interesting to read about what came before and after, but what was printed in the 3LBBs seems quite clear on time underground, at least:

Movement ... is in segments of approximately ten minutes. Thus it takes ten minutes to move two moves ... . Two moves constitution a turn

(UW&WA p8)

There are ten rounds of combat per turn.

(UW&WA p8)


It is perhaps unfortunate that the term "turn" is used synonymously throughout the 3LBBs to mean "exploration turn" and "combat turn". On the other hand, we have clarifications from EGG's other works, so it hardly matters too much.

[busman]

Mar 16, 2012 16:56:08 GMT -6 aldarron said:

Mar 16, 2012 11:41:47 GMT -6 busman said:

Doesn't the delta between the mimeo and the TSR released version solidify that it was in the process of editing/translating to TSR rules that the clarified definition of 1 combat turn/round = 1 minute versus exploration = 10 minutes?

It seems like rock solid proof that Gygax intended/clarified this in the EPT rules as released.

Nope.

I wouldn't assume that it was Gygax who inserted that into EPT, in any case, there's nothing clear about "rounds per turn of one minute each." Are the rounds one minute or the turns? The sentence starts with "However" as if saying this is something different from the previous ten minute turn. I honestly don't know how long an EPT round was meant to be from that statement, but the more I read it the more I think it might well mean the turns were one minute.

At some point Gyggax clearly did adopt a one minute combat round and wrote that into AD&D. No debate there, and who knows, it may have been as early as 1974 (though the FAQ seems to indicate otherwise), and it is possible that Gygax was trying to re-engineer EPT to fit that (but then why not alter Holmes too?).

That doesn't much matter though; the argument here is that the great bulk of the OD&D rules were not written with 10 minute "Turns" in mind.

My recollection may not be perfect, but I recall reading about working EPT into the way it was released from his ms. Whether it was Gygax himself or someone else at TSR at the time (is it more than 5 people at that point?), it seems pretty indicative that the previous manuscript had nothing concrete in it, but the released version which was ODDized does. I suppose it's possible M.A.R. himself did it and then TSR picked up on it, but that just doesn't jibe with the facts, even in this very thread:

ODD had some turn/round confusion/lack of clarity.
It was cleared up in GW and then very much in AD&D.
It's not a large departure from the literature in the 3LBB.
EPT has the same language as was later clarified, but only after it goes to/comes out of TSR.

I think I could convince 12 members of the public.

[aldarron]

Mar 16, 2012 17:52:33 GMT -6 waysoftheearth said:

It's very interesting to read about what came before and after, but what was printed in the 3LBBs seems quite clear on time underground, at least:

Movement ... is in segments of approximately ten minutes. Thus it takes ten minutes to move two moves ... . Two moves constitution a turn

(UW&WA p8)

There are ten rounds of combat per turn.

(UW&WA p8)


It is perhaps unfortunate that the term "turn" is used synonymously throughout the 3LBBs to mean "exploration turn" and "combat turn". On the other hand, we have clarifications from EGG's other works, so it hardly matters too much.

In the context of the rest of the 3lbb's its doesn't seem particulalryl clear to me, given the many instances in the 3LBB's pointed to in this thread already where the length of a "turn" is clearly inconsistent with the statement in Move/Turn. What's clear from the above is Gygax envisioned 5 minute moves, and ten minute turns to cover movement underground. He may have meant combat rounds underground were one minute too, but if he did then he did nothing to revise the rest of the work accordingly.

[aldarron]

Mar 16, 2012 19:43:44 GMT -6 busman said:

it seems pretty indicative that the previous manuscript had nothing concrete in it, but the released version which was ODDized does. ....

EPT was written from the start as a version of OD&D with the 3lbb's in hand. It was edited a bit and the page count was trimmed, but we are talking about very little in they way of rules changes.

Mar 16, 2012 19:43:44 GMT -6 busman said:

ODD had some turn/round confusion/lack of clarity.
It was cleared up in GW and then very much in AD&D.
It's not a large departure from the literature in the 3LBB.
EPT has the same language as was later clarified, but only after it goes to/comes out of TSR.

I think I could convince 12 members of the public.

Greyhawk and AD&D is a direction the game was taken by one of its authors, a direction that contained a lot of revisions, and a revision is not the same thing as a clarification.

I think there's reasonable doubt.

[busman]

Mar 16, 2012 20:51:35 GMT -6 aldarron said:

EPT was written from the start as a version of OD&D with the 3lbb's in hand. It was edited a bit and the page count was trimmed, but we are talking about very little in they way of rules changes.

That's inconsequential, or even more supportive of my statement. The pre-release version, as stated, doesn't have the final version of the 1 combat turn/round = 1 minute in it. I think it's not unreasonable to say what was recently released was EPT as originally envisioned by M.A.R. Barker; and what was released was a collaboration or edited version of the original ms.

We have Barker's version which doesn't include it, so we know it didn't originally come from him. Even with the 3LBBs in hand while writing it. Only through contact with TSR did the clarified rule come out.

I'll grant you there's a possibility that somehow after his original interpretation, that he saw fit to make sure got into the public, and then the eventual release from TSR, he self-edited it; but we know there was back and forth from Barker and Gygax/TSR; and we have the later evidence from Gygax, him being the one that wrote AD&D and had a heavy hand in Sup II Greyhawk, that it must be one of the following:

A) ODD didn't have 1 combat round/turn = 1 minute as it's intention, and TSR/Gygax was influenced by Barker to make that the way forward.

or

B) ODD intended 1 combat round/turn = 1 minute and through EPT first, GH next and finally AD&D it was clarified/refined into that.

A seems very implausible since we now have the original ms. from Barker as he saw it which doesn't include that interpretation.

[waysoftheearth]

Mar 16, 2012 20:21:48 GMT -6 aldarron said:

In the context of the rest of the 3lbb's its doesn't seem particulalryl clear to me, given the many instances in the 3LBB's pointed to in this thread already where the length of a "turn" is clearly inconsistent with the statement in Move/Turn.

Well I guess it would be worthwhile having a closer look at that context...

Below I have listed every occurrence of the terms "round" and "turn" (excluding alternate meanings such as turn to stone, turn undead, turn left or right, round as a shape or an abbreviation for around, and so). I have checked both the 1st and 6th prints for references to "rounds" as these are of particular interest, and found them to be identical.

References to the Term "rounds"

Volume I

None.

Volume II

p8. TROLLS:
beginning the third melee round after one is hit it will begin to repair itself. Regeneration is at the rate of 3 hit points per turn.

p12. Attacking Dragons:
Sleeping Dragons may be attacked with a free melee round by the attacker and +2 on hit dice for chances of hitting.

p12. Subduing Dragons:
Each round of melee the number of points scored in hits is ratioed over the total number the Dragon has (hit point total),

p13. Example of Subdual:
The Dragon is not subdued, and a check is then made to see whether he will bite or use his breath weapon during the second melee round. The result indicates he will breathe. The attackers strike again and once more all hit for a total of 12 points. The Dragon breathes and as none make their saving throws the attackers are all killed for they take 66 points of damage from Dragon fire. Subsequently, the referee rolls 01 on the percentile dice (any roll up to 34 would have indicated success) indicating hat the attackers survived they would have subdued the Red Dragon that turn.

p14. LYCANTHROPES:
If the young are attacked the female adult will fight at triple value for four melee rounds,


Volume III

p8. THE MOVE/TURN IN THE UNDERWORLD
Melee is fast and furious. There are ten rounds of combat per turn.




References to the Term "turns"

Volume I

p 15. Example of Employing Encumbrance:
The character would move at the speed of an Armored Footman (6"/turn).

p 23. Hold Portal:
Roll two dice to determine the duration of the spell in turns.

p 23. Protection from Evil:
Duration: 6 turns.

p 23. Light:
It lasts for a number of turns equal to 6 + the number of levels of the user; thus, a 7th level Magic-User would cast the spell for 13 turns.

p 23. Detect Invisible Objects
Durations: 6 turns.

p 24. Levitate:
Duration: 6 turns + the level of the user. Range (of levitation): 2"/level of Magic-User, with upwards motion at 6"/turn.

p 24. Detect Evil:
Duration: 2 turns.

p 25. ESP:
Duration: 12 turns.

p 25. Fly:
the user is able to fly at a speed of up to 12"/turn. The spell lasts for the number of turns equal to the level of the Magic-User plus the number of pips on a six-sided die

p 25. Hold Person:
Duration: 6 turns + level of the caster.

p 25. Dispel Magic:
Duration: 1 turn.

p 25. Fire Ball:
Duration: 1 turn.

p 25. Protection from Evil, 10' Radius:
lasts for 12 rather than 6 turns.

p 26. Slow Spell:
Duration: 3 turns.

p 25. Protection from Normal Missiles:
Duration: 12 turns.

p 25. Water Breathing:
Duration: 12 turns.

p 26. Polymorph Self:
Duration: 6 turns.

p 26-27. Confusion:
a positive difference means a turn delay, ... this check must be made each turn the spell lasts, and failure means they are confused. ... or attack each other (9-12). Roll each turn. Duration: 12 turns.

p 27. Wizard Eye:
It moves 12"/turn. Duration: 6 turns.

p 28. Telekensis:
Duration: 6 turns.

p 28. Transmute Rock to Mud:
The spell takes effect in one turn,

p 28. Wall of Iron:
Duration: 12 turns.

p 30. Pass-Wall:
Duration: 3 turns.

p 30. Cloudkill:
Movement: 6"/turn ... Duration: 6 turns.

p 30. Growth of Animals:
Duration: 12 turns.

p 30. Lower Water:
drop to 50% of its depth for ten turns.

p 30. Part Water:
for a maximum of six turns.

p 30. Projected Image:
Duration: 6 turns.

p 31. Anti-Magic Shell:
Duration: 12 turns.

p 31. Move Earth:
The spell takes one turn to go into effect. The terrain affected will move at the rate of 6" per turn. Duration: 6 turns.

p 31. Cure Light Wounds:
During the course of one full turn

p 31. Detect Evil:
a duration of 6 turns

p 31. Protection from Evil:
lasts for 12 turns.

p 31. Light:
duration of 12 turns.

p 31. Find Traps:
The spell lasts for 2 turns.

p 32. Hold Person:
its duration is 9 turns.

p 32. Bless:
During any turn the prospective recipients of a Bless spell... The spell lasts six turns.

p 32. Speak with Animals:
Duration: 6 turns.

p 33. Neutralize Poison:
Duration: 1 turn.

p 33. Turn Sticks to Snakes:
Duration: 6 turns.

p 33. Speak with Plants:
Duration: 6 turns.

p 33. Dispel Evil:
Duration: 1 turn.


Volume II

p8. TROLLS:
beginning the third melee round after one is hit it will begin to repair itself. Regeneration is at the rate of 3 hit points per turn.

p9. VAMPIRES:
regenerate during combat as do Trolls, but they do so immediately upon being hit at the rate of three hit points per turn.

p13. Example of subduing Dragon:
...indicating that {had} the attackers survived they would have subdued the Red Dragon that turn.

p15. PURPLE WORMS:
In six turns the swallowed creature will be dead. In twelve turns it will be totally digested and irrecoverable.

p16. TREANTS:
if they are within 6" of a tree they may cause it to move 3" per turn

p18. Air Elementals:
Forming a whirlwind requires one full turn as does dissolving it.

p18. Earth Elementals:
move but 6" per turn

p18. Fire Elementals:
move up to 12" per turn.

p18. Water Elementals:
They move at a rate of 18" per turn in water, 6" outside water.

p18. OCHRE JELLY:
it causes one die of damage per turn it is in contact with exposed flesh.

p18. BLACK (or GRAY) PUDDING:
the monster's corrosive power will eat away the foot and leg protection of the armor so that it will fall-away next turn.

p20. GREEN SLIME:
Green Slime sticks to flesh and penetrates it in one turn

p20. GRAY OOZE:
It does two dice of damage to exposed flesh for every turn it is in contact with it.

p25. Die Roll for Curses: Point 3-4:
Disease, fatal in 3 turns unless healed

p29. Extraordinary Ability Table: Point 88-92:
Healing (1 point/6 turns or 6 points/day)

p29. Extraordinary Ability Table: Point 93-97:
1-4 times normal strength for 1-10 turns

p31. POTIONS:
For those with limited effect the time will be six turns plus the number of pips rolled on a six-sided die.

p31. Potion of Speed:
allowing an encumbered man to move at 6"/turn

p32. Potion of Animal Control:
One turn after the potion is consumed

p32. Scroll of Protection: Lycanthropes:
Spell duration is 6 turns.

p33. Scroll of Protection: Undead:
Spell duration is 6 turns.

p33. Scroll of Protection: Elementals:
Spell duration is 4 turns.

p33. Scroll of Protection: Magic:
prevents all magical functions, in or out, for 8 turns.

p33. Ring of weakness:
making him weaker at a rate of 10%/turn

p33. Ring of regeneration:
The wearer will recover damage at the rate of 1 point/turn.

p34. Ring of X-Ray Vision:
A 1" x 1" section can be viewed during 1 turn.

p35. Snake Staff:
or preventing counter-attack otherwise, for 1-4 turns.

p35. Staff of Wizardry:
The Staff will generate sufficient webs to cover a 1" x 1" x 2" area in any turn. Giants and similarly powerful creatures can break through them in two turns, and lesser creatures will take proportionately longer. A Flaming Sword will slash through them in one turn.

p36. Elemental Control Items:
All are rather bulky and require one turn to set up or store away if they are carried with an expedition. They will summon the Elemental in but one turn.

p37. Broom of Flying:
allows the owner to fly at Dragon speed (24"/turn).

p37. Flying Carpet:
This device carries up to 3 persons at a speed of 18"/turn, while one occupant will allow it to move at 30"/turn.

p38. Horn of Blasting:
Creatures which are in its path will sustain two dice of damage and deafened for one turn if not killed.




Volume III

p5. bullet point 8:
Falling into the pit would typically cause damage if a 1 or a 2 were rolled. Otherwise, it would only mean about one turn of time to clamber out, providing the character had spikes or associates to pull him out, and providing the pit wasn't one with a snap-shut door and the victim was alone.

p6. Example tricks and traps:
Sinking rooms, including rooms which seem to sink, while the doors remain shut fast for a period of several turns

p8. THE MOVE/TURN IN THE UNDERWORLD
Movement (distances given in Vol. 1) is in segments of approximately ten minutes. Thus it takes ten minutes to move about two moves — 120 feet for a fullyarmored character. Two moves constitute a turn, except in flight/pursuit situations where the moves/turn will be doubled (and no mapping allowed).

Time must be taken to rest, so one turn every hour must be spent motionless, and double the rest period must be taken after a flight/pursuit takes place.

Time spent searching for anything (secret passages, hidden treasure, etc.), loading treasure, listening, ESP'ing, hiding, will be adjudged by the referee as to what portion of a turn will be used by the activity. Typically, ESP'ing will take but a quarter turn, while searching a ten foot section of wall for secret passages will require a full turn.

Melee is fast and furious. There are ten rounds of combat per turn.

p10. Wandering Monsters
At the end of every turn the referee will roll a six-sided die to see if a "wandering monster" has been encountered.

p13. EXAMPLE OF THE REFEREE MODERATING A DUNGEON EXPEDITION:
CAL: I will secure the case and necklace in my back pack, while the others will, by turn, fill their packs with coppers.
REF: This will require; four turns. (He checks for monsters wandering in, and on the forth try one is indicated.

p17. THE WILDERNESS: MOVEMENT:
turn: Each move will constitute one day. Each day is considered a turn.

p17. THE WILDERNESS: Lost Parties:
There is a chance of being lost, the chance depending on the type of terrain the party begins its turn upon.

p17. THE WILDERNESS: Wandering Monsters:
At the end of each day (turn) the referee will check to see if a monster has been encountered.

p20. THE WILDERNESS: Pursuit:
For each hex moved in pursuit, a party must spend one-half day resting (remember, a day equals one turn).

p25. AERIAL COMBAT: PLAYING AREA:
Counters numbered in 1" increments can be prepared, and the appropriate one be placed with the unit when the turn is finished, thus indicating height in inches.

p25. AERIAL COMBAT: WRITTEN ORDERS:
Firing missiles is always allowable at the end of a turn unless the firer is meleed and unable to do so

p27. AERIAL COMBAT: MISSILE FIRE: Bombing:
Bombing runs must be in a straight line for the whole turn of movement

p28. NAVAL COMBAT: TYPES OF VESSELS AND MOVEMENT: Oared Movement:
The number of turns that a stroke can be kept up is based on the fatigue factor.

p29. NAVAL COMBAT: TYPES OF VESSELS AND MOVEMENT: Sailed Movement:
Anything above a strong breeze makes sailing impossible, and the vessels must simply run before the storm, moving 3" per turn in the direction the wind is blowing.

p29. NAVAL COMBAT: Wind Force:
Galleys in a Fresh to Strong breeze have a 10% chance per turn of shipping water.

p30. NAVAL COMBAT: RAMMING: Point 4:
The rammed ship suffers from 10% to 60% damage, and there is a 25% chance that it is holed below the waterline and will sink in 3-18 turns unless patched.

p30. NAVAL COMBAT: RAMMING: Point 5:
Patching a hole below the waterline requires 5 turns of work by ten men, and there is a 25% chance the job will not hold, requiring another five turns to replace.

p31. NAVAL COMBAT: SHEARING OFF OARS:
A ship with sheared oars will be dead in the water for three turns, and thereafter it will move at one-half speed maximum.

p31. NAVAL COMBAT: GRAPPLING:
Allow three grappling attempts per ship to be made during any turn.

p31. NAVAL COMBAT: BOARDING:
For every three feet of deck space parallel to the ship to be boarded one man per turn can board.

p32 NAVAL COMBAT: MELEE: General Notes on Melee: Point 3:
So for instance when a giant attacks the door on a standard ship it will probably only cost him half his movement points while it would take ten men an entire turn to break it down.
...
So, again, say it would take a man with a sword three turns to cut a piece of rigging, or an anchor rope, while a giant would tear it apart in a single turn.

p32. NAVAL COMBAT: COMMAND CONTROL: Point 6:
Personnel engaged in melee will only respond to commands when a roll of 1-4 is made (on a six-sided die). This will be checked each turn. Therefore, orders for withdrawal, for example, can be given for three turns later which allows three turns for the personnel to respond.

p33. NAVAL COMBAT: SWIMMING:
Note that in gale and storm conditions there is a 50% chance that any man in the water will drown. Roll for this possibility each turn.
...
Swimming speed is 3" per turn. Survivors swimming can swim to any ship they can reach and be picked up if the ship is moving at "slow" oared speed or under 15" per turn in any case.

p34. Mermen:
Swimmers will travel 15" per turn

p34. Nixies:
These creatures operate only in fresh water moving 9" per turn.

p34. Dragon Turtle:
The Dragon Turtle moves only 9" per turn. The Dragon Turtle can breathe steam in an area like that of the fire of a Red Dragon. Their number of Hit Dice range from 11 - 13. It is in all other respects like dragons, except the Dragon Turtle cannot fly and moves at 3" per turn on land.

p35. Giant Leeches:
these monsters move at 6" per turn. When they attack a hit means that rather than score damage to their opponents they have attached themselves, and every two turns they will drain one life energy level.

p35. Giant Crocodiles:
Crocs move 15" per turn in water, 9" per turn on land.

p35. Giant Snakes:
Moving at a speed of 20" per turn, the great snakes of the Sea (or large lakes) will attack as do Purple Worms. They can take from 6 - 36 hits, and the largest are able to wrap themselves around small ships (Longship or smaller) and cause them to suffer 10% per turn due to constriction.

p35. Giant Octopi and Giant Squids:
Found only in salthingyer, these monsters are able to move at 9" and 12" per turn respectively,

p35. Giant Crabs:
They travel 6" per turn.

p36. Giant Fish:
Moving at 30" to 50" per turn,


So in summary, it is stated explicitly in volume III (p 8) that, underground at least, there are ten combat rounds per ten minute turn. It is very reasonable to conclude that, underground, a round is one minute long.

It is also stated that, in the wilderness, a turn (an "exploration turn") is one day in duration. As no other definition is given for a "combat turn" in the wilderness, it is not unreasonable to assume that what is given for dungeon exploration is applicable. If the players wish to fight their outdoor combats at the same level of detail as they fight their dungeon combats, then it is entirely reasonable to do so.

Moreover, the specifics of (outdoor) naval combat strongly imply the same. E.g., "For every three feet of deck space parallel to the ship to be boarded one man per turn can board.", and "it would take a man with a sword three turns to cut a piece of rigging, or an anchor rope, while a giant would tear it apart in a single turn.". It all seems very much in line with what could be achieved in a one minute, underground "turn".

It is also quite clear that where "rounds" are used explicitly in the 3LBBs, the terms "round" and "turn" are used quite interchangeably to refer to a "combat turn".

As many of the spells or spell-like effects are purposefully for combat, it seems likely that durations for these (given as "turns") are intended to be "combat turns", aka "rounds". It is arguable that some spells are intended to last longer, and that in the case of these, "turns" refers instead to "exploration turns" (meaning 10 minute turns underground, or one day turns in the wilderness). We can confirm which these are in the AD&D PHB.

It seems sensible also that many of the supernatural-powers attributed to monsters (such as an air elemental forming into a whirlwind, vampire regeneration, ooze and slime damage to exposed flesh per turn, etc.) should likewise function at the melee round level. So in the case of these a "turn" refers to "combat turn" aka "round".

Admittedly, it is not obvious whether it should take 6 minutes, or 60 minutes or 6 days for a purple worm to digest a swallowed hero, whether it should take 1 minute, 10 minutes or 1 day to prepare an item of elemental conjuring, nor whether curses that bestow diseases should be fatal in 3 minutes, 30 minutes, or 3 days. It would seem very strange indeed if these durations were tens of minutes underground, but then days in the wilderness! In any case, I see these cases not as a problem, but as a perfectly good opportunity for a referee to step in and make a campaign specific ruling.

It really doesn't seem so confusing. I just use the underground scale for all combat, regardless of where it occurs.


Enjoy



edit: fixed grammar, added naval example, added green highlights.

[busman]

Holy smokes, Ways, that's a heck of a post, my friend; that took a bit to put together.

[waysoftheearth]

Mar 17, 2012 2:50:21 GMT -6 busman said:

Holy smokes, Ways, that's a heck of a post, my friend; that took a bit to put together.

Let's just say that Delving Deeper will be one afternoon late

[aldarron]

Mar 16, 2012 23:06:56 GMT -6 busman said:

Mar 16, 2012 20:51:35 GMT -6 aldarron said:

EPT was written from the start as a version of OD&D with the 3lbb's in hand. It was edited a bit and the page count was trimmed, but we are talking about very little in they way of rules changes.

That's inconsequential, or even more supportive of my statement. The pre-release version, as stated, doesn't have the final version of the 1 combat turn/round = 1 minute in it. I think it's not unreasonable to say what was recently released was EPT as originally envisioned by M.A.R. Barker; and what was released was a collaboration or edited version of the original ms.

We have Barker's version which doesn't include it, so we know it didn't originally come from him. Even with the 3LBBs in hand while writing it. Only through contact with TSR did the clarified rule come out.

I'll grant you there's a possibility that somehow after his original interpretation, that he saw fit to make sure got into the public, and then the eventual release from TSR, he self-edited it; but we know there was back and forth from Barker and Gygax/TSR; and we have the later evidence from Gygax, him being the one that wrote AD&D and had a heavy hand in Sup II Greyhawk, that it must be one of the following:

A) ODD didn't have 1 combat round/turn = 1 minute as it's intention, and TSR/Gygax was influenced by Barker to make that the way forward.

or

B) ODD intended 1 combat round/turn = 1 minute and through EPT first, GH next and finally AD&D it was clarified/refined into that.

A seems very implausible since we now have the original ms. from Barker as he saw it which doesn't include that interpretation.

Which relates to why I brought it up in the first place, until Mike Mornard pointed out that "In combat, however, there are ten "combat rounds" per turn of one minute each." is an ambiguous statement, and can be read to mean either:

1) "There are ten rounds to a combat turn and each of these rounds is one minute each"

or

2) However, there are ten rounds to a one minute combat turn."

it simply is not clear whether "one minute each" refers to the turns or the rounds. Maybe one of the EPT scholars knows the answers to this. I don't and I'm not in the business of making assumptions.

It's an interesting clue either way, but relates more to what developed after the 3LBB's were published, not before.

[Zenopus]

Thanks for the summary of rounds/turns, ways.

So in summary, it is stated explicitly in volume III (p 8) that, underground at least, there are ten combat rounds per ten minute turn. It is very reasonable to conclude that, underground, a round is one minute long.

I used to think that, but we've discussed earlier in this thread why it's not as explicit or clear as you suggest here. You have put sentences in two different paragraphs together and saying they are clearly linked. But it's possible they are not.

"Movement (distances given in Vol.1) is in segments of approximately ten minutes. Thus it takes ten minutes to move about two moves - 120 feet for a fully armored character. Two moves constitutes a turn, except in flight/pursuit situation where moves/turn will be doubled (and no mapping allowed)".

Okay so this says that movement is in ten-minute turns. But it says nothing about combat turns.

"Melee is fast and furious. There are ten rounds of combat per turn."

This just says that ten rounds of combat = one combat turn. It doesn't explicitly say that this "combat turn" of ten rounds is the same length of time as a movement turn of ten minutes. It can be interpreted that way, but it could also be interpreted as being the same length as a turn of combat in CHAINMAIL, which is 1 minute (pg 8) and encompasses multiple rounds of combat (pg 25).

[aldarron]

Exalt Simon for taking the trouble to post all that!

Very useful for the discussion, although it should be pointed out thast context includes than the direct references. For example, Shipboard combat, where we are told "Use Man-to-Man rules as found in CHAINMAIL." UW&A:31
Which would bring up the odd situation of seconds based rounds on board ships and much slower rounds underground. Sure game rules could be structured that way - perhaps all dungeons have slow spells cast on them - but it's weird if true.

Mar 17, 2012 1:35:43 GMT -6 waysoftheearth said:

It is also quite clear that where "rounds" are used explicitly in the 3LBBs, the terms "round" and "turn" are used quite interchangeably to refer to a "combat turn".

I don't see that at all. What seems clear to me is that rounds are typically referred to as subsets of turns in combat.

Turns where they occur refer to one of three things:

1) a CHAINMAIL turn
2) an ambiguous period that could be either a CHAINMAIL turn or a Movement Turn, (but usually make more sense as the former).
3) a game turn in the common sense - such as a wilderness turn which can take a day, a half day, a third of a day or however.

Mar 17, 2012 1:35:43 GMT -6 waysoftheearth said:

As many of the spells or spell-like effects are purposefully for combat, it seems likely ....
We can confirm which these are in the AD&D PHB.

I'm sure plenty of folks are happy to turn to AD&D for spells, but what was written four+ years later can in no way be takens as confirmation of anything. There are many differneces for starters, but you are also neglecting the fact that two men wrote the spells for OD&D and only one of them went on to write the AD&D material. You might just as well say you can turn to the spells in AiF for "confirmation.", which obviously would be just as untrue but equally applicable.

EDIT: Just as an interesting aside, AiF has one minute turns of three twenty second combat rounds.

Mar 17, 2012 1:35:43 GMT -6 waysoftheearth said:

Admittedly, it is not obvious whether it should take 6 minutes, or 60 minutes or 6 days for a purple worm to digest a swallowed hero, whether it should take 1 minute, 10 minutes or 1 day to prepare an item of elemental conjuring, nor whether curses that bestow diseases should be fatal in 3 minutes, 30 minutes, or 3 days. It would seem very strange indeed if these durations were tens of minutes underground, but then days in the wilderness! In any case, I see these cases not as a problem, but as a perfectly good opportunity for a referee to step in and make a campaign specific ruling.

Amen!

[waysoftheearth]

Gents, I honestly think you are just making it harder than it really is.

If I am a player with nothing more than the 3LBBs at my disposal (and I am), then this is what I read;

1. "Movement ... is in segments of approximately ten minutes".

Hmm, so time is measured in a thing being referred to as segments, and a segment is approximately ten minutes long. Interesting...

2. "it takes ten minutes to move about two moves".

Ah, okay, so I can make about two moves in one of these... segments.

3. "Two moves constitute a turn"

So now either there is new thing called a turn which is the same duration as a segment. Or else the thing that formerly referred to as a segment is now going to be known as a turn. Either way, I can make (about) two moves in a thing called a turn, and a turn is (approximately) ten minutes long.

4. some other stuff about what can be accomplished in a turn... followed by "There are ten rounds of combat per turn."

Well then, we have another new thing called rounds of combat, and there are ten of those in each turn. We've just established that a turn is ten minutes long, so a round must be one minute long.


Yes, the last statement is in another paragraph. In fact, whole passage on "The Move/Turn in the Underworld" is in five paragraphs -- but this doesn't mean they are unrelated. On the contrary, each paragraph builds upon the preceding ones to deliver the entirety of the message.

This just says that ten rounds of combat = one combat turn.

I must disagree with this, Zenopus. It does not say "ten rounds of combat = one combat turn", it actually says "ten rounds of combat = one turn".

As I pointed out above, the terms "round" and "turn" are used synonymously throughout the 3LBBs to mean "combat turn". However, this particular passage of text is in the process of defining the terms "round" and "turn". Therefore I think it is safe to assume that "turn" means "ten-minute exploration turn" in this context.

[Zenopus]

I can see both interpretations. The whole point of this thread has been that the reading you are taking is not as unambiguous as you are argue. Aldarron has spent much more time looking into this than me, so I'll let him argue it further. I was mostly interested in the source of the shorter combat turns (1-min) in Holmes.

[aldarron]

Mar 17, 2012 7:19:30 GMT -6 waysoftheearth said:

Gents, I honestly think you are just making it harder than it really is.

If I am a player with nothing more than the 3LBBs at my disposal (and I am), then this is what I read;....

Yes of course. That is exactly what happened. Nobody is debating that. What we are suggesting is that the common and accepted interpretation is not the paradigm under which the rules generally were written, i.e. interpretation does not match intent, usually and may not even it the particular instance cited.

Further, if it does mean to imply combat rounds are a minute long, it conflicts with many other passages and must therefore be a last minute addition to the otherwise unrevised rules, which it could well be. It's clear that it is not clear.

[waysoftheearth]

Mar 17, 2012 7:11:53 GMT -6 aldarron said:

Exalt Simon for taking the trouble to post all that!

Thanks

Mar 17, 2012 7:11:53 GMT -6 aldarron said:

it should be pointed out thast context includes than the direct references.

That may in fact be the entirety of this discussion, so I will shortly leave it to folks better informed on such matters than I... (I had thought this was about the length of a round in D&D, not the length of a round in chainmail!)

Mar 17, 2012 7:11:53 GMT -6 aldarron said:

Mar 17, 2012 1:35:43 GMT -6 waysoftheearth said:

It is also quite clear that where "rounds" are used explicitly in the 3LBBs, the terms "round" and "turn" are used quite interchangeably to refer to a "combat turn".

I don't see that at all.

Take a look at the Troll regeneration text, and the Dragon subdual text which I posted above. In both passages a "combat turn" is referred to as a "round" in one breath, and as a "turn" in the next.

Mar 17, 2012 7:11:53 GMT -6 aldarron said:

Turns where they occur refer to one of three things:

1) a CHAINMAIL turn
2) an ambiguous period that could be either a CHAINMAIL turn or a Movement Turn, (but usually make more sense as the former).
3) a game turn in the common sense - such as a wilderness turn which can take a day, a half day, a third of a day or however.

I would hazard a guess that most folk who play D&D don't own chainmail. If that is true, then this is not a problem in most D&D games.

Mar 17, 2012 7:11:53 GMT -6 aldarron said:

I'm sure plenty of folks are happy to turn to AD&D for spells,

Most D&D player do have a copy of AD&D.

Mar 17, 2012 7:11:53 GMT -6 aldarron said:

but what was written four+ years later can in no way be takens as confirmation of anything.

What was written four+ years later by one of the co-authors might hint at that co-author's original intent, or at the very least his revised intent.


I'd say that it isn't important enough to wreck your D&D game, so just fight on! With whatever combat turns/rounds/segments you use at your table. Nobody is going to care overly much

[Deleted]

Mar 17, 2012 7:19:30 GMT -6 waysoftheearth said:

Gents, I honestly think you are just making it harder than it really is.

Yep. Exalt!

[cooper]

0d&d was written explicitely with CHAINMAIL in mind, so I'm really at loss for people looking to ad&d for "original intent". Neither combat turns nor combat rounds are new introductions, the only addition into the game was an exporation turn (10 min or 1 day).

[aldarron]

Mar 17, 2012 7:44:22 GMT -6 waysoftheearth said:

Take a look at the Troll regeneration text, and the Dragon subdual text which I posted above. In both passages a "combat turn" is referred to as a "round" in one breath, and as a "turn" in the next.

Interesting indeed. I don't mean to be entirely dogmatic, but would rather recognize that some instances of carelessness with terms doesn't imply they are always synonomous. Looking to your examples:

Troll: could go either way. A blank reading implies that they begin regenrating points on round three and gain them back on round 10, once each turn. Nevertheless, I'll grant that that is probably not what is meant. CHAINMAIL has only "the ability to regenerate the body" If we look to what is likely the first appearance of this specific rule from Arneson's draft notes in the FFC we see: True Trolls: Always alone. 36 - 72 Hits and regenerate 3 Hits every turn they are not attacked. Must be burned or dumped in acid to kill permanently."

So here at least Arneson is not distinguishing turn from round.

Dragons: You must be right about this instance Simon. FFC original has:

"Number of Hits obtained that turn compared to the number of Hits left give you the odds on your subdueing the Dragon that turn." FFC80:62 Here Turn means something like player turn, apparently.

This from the D&D playtest draft:

"Hits scored upon the monster(s) are then counted towards subduing rather than killing. Each turn the nurmber of hits is ratiod over the possible number of hits the Dragon(s) can take, and percentages are checked. If the score is less than the ratio, the Dragon is subdued. However, until subdued they will fight and imdimmolate normally.....
If it immolates, the attackers must roll for their Saving Throws. After a second round, hits and possible hits are ratioed again
and so on ..."

So in each iteration of dragon subdual we do see casual use of rounds and turns.