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Post by Finarvyn on Aug 19, 2011 15:57:30 GMT -6
Now I realize that my second post in this thread did come across as overly-confrontational. That wasn't the point, so I'll try to be a bit more tactful from now on. I'll do my best to uphold the positive tone that's been a part of most of the discussion. You're proud of your work and you were defending it. Your reaction was understandable and you're among friends. Don't sweat it. Cameron is wise. Listen to Cameron. Having done the S&W WhiteBox I realize how much critisim hurts. You write something you think is awesome and then someone has a different idea about it and doesn't like what you've done. I should be more sensitive, particularly when I haven't seen the full product. You are simply defending something that you love and we should all be more tolerant of that here.
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Post by giantbat on Aug 19, 2011 20:38:05 GMT -6
Sincere question: Could I show up to play in your TSF game and make a werebear or skeleton character? If so, how would you have it work?
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Post by kesher on Aug 21, 2011 15:43:01 GMT -6
Absolutely. If would work by making up rules for anything that wasn't immediately apparent. Sorta like we've always done, really. I mean, if you chose to play skeleton, frex, I'd probably have you put all of your 5 initial Elder God ranks in Death, since that seems to make sense to me, etc. If you were a werebear, I'd probably have that ability to transform take up all or most of your initial Trademark choices, and maybe put more EG ranks in Life and/or The Great Unknown. Does that answer your question?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2011 19:46:10 GMT -6
I've bought and read the PDF. There are some decent ideas and mechanics tucked in here. Of course I'd say the same thing about most retro-clones and heartbreakers over the last 30 years. If the author put this up as a plain old house rules pdf without the grandoise claims, people would probably love it. The "Gary's secret notes" angle means nothing to mean. His opinions changed over the years. OD&D fans complain about AD&D. Everyone complains about Mythus. If there are significant ideas from Gary in this game, point them out, quote them. Given the renaming of common terms, perhaps the notes are from the Mythus era The game tries to be everything to everyone. A little old-school, a little 4E, a little narrative, but ultimately feels like it (as a whole) it would be unsatisfying to all. It's like the "Rifts"of mechanics. Whether you player AD&D or 4E, you'll probably find an idea or two you'd use, but it's different enough from all D&D editions (wound levels?) to useless as a meeting point. Can characters, monsters, spells, and equipment be converted? How?
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Post by kesher on Aug 22, 2011 9:33:02 GMT -6
That's a really valid point. And weirdly, I was just looking at a copy of Mythus this weekend at my FLGS... I myself have no real insight into what's particularly "Gygaxian" about it.
Having played the game twice now, most recently yesterday with the published rules, I guess I'll have to disagree. My group had a blast--of the four who played, two had been involved in the playtesting, both of them playing ODD with me and also in someone else's regular AD&D campaign; one's only played ODD with us; and the other is an ardent indie-gamer. Now, no one I play with (including myself) has actually played 4e, so I can't comment on that, but in my opinion, "the 'Rifts' of mechanics" is a bit hyperbolistic, except perhaps in comparison to 4e's mechanics (I have read the Essentials line.)
Indeed, they can. There's a conversion table for both 1e and 4e. It was dropped from the published rules due to space considerations, but is in the process of being reformatted and put up on the website as a free download. For the playtest I ran, I converted monsters from both of those editions.
I'll have more detail on yesterdays session up on my blog hopefully later today.
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Post by darkling on Aug 22, 2011 10:23:42 GMT -6
Indeed, they can. There's a conversion table for both 1e and 4e. It was dropped from the published rules due to space considerations, but is in the process of being reformatted and put up on the website as a free download. For the playtest I ran, I converted monsters from both of those editions. I'll have more detail on yesterdays session up on my blog hopefully later today. That is perhaps the first thing that I have heard that really intrigues me about this. A very nice feature.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2011 14:53:32 GMT -6
Having played the game twice now, most recently yesterday with the published rules, I guess I'll have to disagree. My group had a blast--of the four who played, two had been involved in the playtesting, both of them playing ODD with me and also in someone else's regular AD&D campaign; one's only played ODD with us; and the other is an ardent indie-gamer. Now, no one I play with (including myself) has actually played 4e, so I can't comment on that, but in my opinion, "the 'Rifts' of mechanics" is a bit hyperbolistic, except perhaps in comparison to 4e's mechanics (I have read the Essentials line.) Indeed, they can. There's a conversion table for both 1e and 4e. YMMV. I'm not a fan of 4E, so I can't speak for the appeal. It has some interesting ideas, but it's not a game for me. I'd rather be playing AD&D. In my gaming circle, there are 3E and 4E fans that bored or annoyed by older xD&D versions. We can all have fun playing Settlers of Catan or FATE-based games, but we can't agree on D&D. Features of Secret Fire, like random/low ability scores, treasure for XP, and lack of uniform mechanics and perfectly fine by me, but might be dealbreakers for 3E/4E players. I'd be curious to see AD&D Ranger and 4E Ranger characters converted.
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Post by Finarvyn on Aug 23, 2011 4:45:33 GMT -6
Indeed, they can. There's a conversion table for both 1e and 4e. It was dropped from the published rules due to space considerations, but is in the process of being reformatted and put up on the website as a free download. For the playtest I ran, I converted monsters from both of those editions. Hmm. That sounds interesting to me, and more like the "original concept" that George had mentioned in his early design posts. I like the 1E-4E bridge.
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Post by aldarron on Aug 23, 2011 5:35:16 GMT -6
I'm not so sure it was uncharacteristic, but it was uncharitable. I meant it to jest more than cut, but my tongue was overly sharp and dull at the same time. Exalt for this and your post koolaid posts in general. Good on ya.
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Post by James Maliszewski on Aug 23, 2011 20:26:44 GMT -6
Forgive me if this has already been covered and I somehow missed it, but I'd like to know: in what we did these notes of Gary's influence TSF in a way that makes it different than, say, OD&D or AD&D?
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Post by kesher on Aug 24, 2011 11:44:00 GMT -6
Hey, James. No, you didn't miss it. I can't speak to it directly, since I haven't seen the notebooks, and George is still under an NDA until the details of the Gygax movie are finalized; unfortunately, this agreement applies even to his interaction with the development team. If that sounds evasive, it's not meant to be; I think it's a fair question, and one that will eventually be answered.
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Post by kesher on Aug 24, 2011 11:46:41 GMT -6
@widderslainte:
I'll see what I can do about that.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 24, 2011 16:00:19 GMT -6
This game has interested me enough to write my first ever review, which will end up being a series of detailed blog posts. Certainly some of the reactions here have prompted me to get the game and read it - and it's been an entertaining ride. There's a lot I like and some things I don't. I must confess though it's George's goals for the game that interest me more than the game itself, which will no doubt be reflected in my review.
The biggest criticism I have is that the advertised "pdf" is not a pdf at all, but is instead a read-only electronic reader file, which is bloody useless to me at the gaming table since I don't own one and don't have a laptop. As such I feel like my money was taken under false pretenses because I have a game I can't use. Had that information been made clear on George's website, I wouldn't have purchased the "pdf" version, but would've waited till I had the spare cash for a hard copy.
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Post by James Maliszewski on Aug 24, 2011 16:01:00 GMT -6
If that sounds evasive, it's not meant to be; I think it's a fair question, and one that will eventually be answered. No worries. I don't think you're being evasive, but it sure seems as if Mr Strayton is being so. I intensely dislike it when someone comes out and claims portentously to know something and then, when pressed, says nothing or retreats behind NDAs and similar legal mumbo-jumbo that prevents his being able to make good on his claims. At this stage, given all the evasive hype, I fear it'll be impossible for almost anything Mr Strayton eventually says to live up to our expectations. Unless, of course, he really does have access to something so incredible that, somehow, no one else has ever seen before and it really will change the hobby forever ...
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Post by kesher on Aug 24, 2011 19:19:33 GMT -6
The biggest criticism I have is that the advertised "pdf" is not a pdf at all, but is instead a read-only electronic reader file, which is bloody useless to me at the gaming table since I don't own one and don't have a laptop. As such I feel like my money was taken under false pretenses because I have a game I can't use. Had that information been made clear on George's website, I wouldn't have purchased the "pdf" version, but would've waited till I had the spare cash for a hard copy. My friend, I can guarantee you that was just some sort of mix-up--I'll get it straightened out for you. PM me with your email address, and a bookmarked pdf will be headed your way post-haste.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 24, 2011 21:38:55 GMT -6
Thanks Kesher, pm on its way.
The problem is when a file is uploaded to Lulu the publisher has two choices - to provide the customer with a pdf or provide them with an Adobe Digital Editions file (digital device file). With the latter, the publisher must then choose whether to turn the print option on or off. In the case of TSF, the latter has occurred. Obviously this may have been done unintentionally by someone who wasn't familiar with the Lulu software, which means I won't be the only customer with a read-only file.
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Post by Mike on Aug 25, 2011 6:11:51 GMT -6
I'm very much looking forward to Austrodavicus's review....
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Post by kesher on Aug 25, 2011 9:31:04 GMT -6
@austrodavicus (hey! I just figured that out!): pdf on its way. That's great insight for the lulu file--I'm sure that's exactly what happened. We'll be sure to contact those who've bought the lulu pdf. Thanks! Mike: Me, too!
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Post by Deleted on Aug 25, 2011 15:56:26 GMT -6
I'm very much looking forward to Austrodavicus's review.... Aww Man, now the pressure's on. kesher - a public thank you to you and George for fixing the problem so quickly. I'm glad to hear the Lulu read-only thing was a mix up and not intentional.
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Post by rabindranath72 on Aug 30, 2011 8:22:26 GMT -6
What little I've seen of THE SECRET FIRE seems to tread very close to crossing that invisible line in my brain into "something else" and I have a tough time blending that concept with what I know of Gary's designs. I guess that's where I run into issues and I'll have to buy TSF and read it before I can finally figure out if it totally crosses that line or not. If Gary's thoughts in game design are what we saw in the last years of his production (i.e. Lejendary Adventures) then I can safely say that very little in TSF bears any resemblance to the paradigm shift you can experience by playing LA. Personally, I read through TSF and did not like it at all. There is nothing truly original, and most of the things which might pass as innovations in the OSR community have already been done in at least one indie game (namely FATE aspects.) And the self-aggrandizing tone in the whole game is simply irking.
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Post by kesher on Aug 30, 2011 11:09:07 GMT -6
That's cool--it won't be for everyone.
I guess you and I will have to disagree on that point.
We do agree on this--it always bothered me, too. Interestingly, George, while going through the text line by line recently to correct typos and make clarifications, now agrees with this as well. He's taken all the "hype" text out. He realized he was just running under the Hollywood paradigm he's used to as a screenwriter, and that the tone was off-putting for a lot of people who might otherwise be interested in the game itself.
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Post by rabindranath72 on Aug 30, 2011 15:27:09 GMT -6
Could you point out which elements and why you think are really original, i.e. have never been seen in any other game? We can surely disagree, but I am not sure what I am disagreeing with :?
I have seen mentioned the "narrativist" elements, but I really cannot find any at all. At least when narrativism is intended according to the definitions of The Forge, i.e. when a game provides support and semantics for narrativism in terms of game mechanics. In this context narrativism is an emergent property of gaming, not something mandated by the rules, and surely narrativism has nothing to do with thespianism, or with the syntactic support that The Secret Fire provides. I use the term syntactic here to denote the patterns which the game provides to fuel descriptions. Replacing "10 hit points" with "grave wound" is not narrativism. And the suggestions in TSF are sincerely just lame, and would not be considered narrativist; I know Finarvyn here frequents the Forge boards and Ron Edwards' forum, so he can add something more.
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Post by kesher on Aug 30, 2011 16:54:15 GMT -6
I will be absolutely happy to have this discussion! I'm traveling at the moment, but will get back to this thread ASAP.
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Post by rabindranath72 on Aug 31, 2011 1:28:27 GMT -6
I will be absolutely happy to have this discussion! I'm traveling at the moment, but will get back to this thread ASAP. Yeah don't sweat it
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Post by rabindranath72 on Aug 31, 2011 4:21:21 GMT -6
I was also wondering about the Gygax notes...is it possible that none of it was ever used by Gary in any of his games? Gary's tastes changed with time, so it would be interesting to have at least a time-frame for this document.
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Post by aldarron on Aug 31, 2011 17:21:27 GMT -6
I was also wondering about the Gygax notes...is it possible that none of it was ever used by Gary in any of his games? Gary's tastes changed with time, so it would be interesting to have at least a time-frame for this document. From what I've read, my impression - and mind you I have no more hard facts about this than anybody - is that the notes in question are from the formative period of OD&D and involve diary entries and such. Likely these are speculative musings, and things Gary would have used or rejected over the years and recycled in several fashions. In other words, much would be familiar and the unfamiliar is what ended on the cutting room floor, so to speak. Their chief value, in my opinion, would be in clearing away some of the fog still surrounding the historical narrative, not particularly for any gaming ideas, regardless of what they might be.
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Post by giantbat on Sept 5, 2011 18:06:04 GMT -6
Does that answer your question? Yep! Makes me think I might want to try playing a skeleton in your next session.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2011 21:17:29 GMT -6
I read through TSF and did not like it at all. There is nothing truly original, and most of the things which might pass as innovations in the OSR community have already been done in at least one indie game (namely FATE aspects.) And the self-aggrandizing tone in the whole game is simply irking. Well, I've seen your posts here and on the Troll Lord boards and your style of play sounds alot like my own. Guess I'll be giving this game a pass. The "Gygax notes" thing got me excited for just a moment, but what I hear about the game sounds nothing like what I expected.
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Post by kesher on Sept 6, 2011 11:15:48 GMT -6
@giantbat: WooHoo! @everyone else: Sorry I've neglected some questions here---I was traveling helping my parents move, and then this weekend I separated my shoulder while running with one of my kids, so typing's a bit of a chore right now, with a sling and all... I hope to be back to normal typing by Friday at the latest. dilvish: Before you make your decision, I invite you to come on back here for my response to rabindranath's questions. There is also a quick-start version of the rules with a great adventure and pre-generated questions being made right now, so that'll let you try playing without investing, too.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 23, 2011 20:04:47 GMT -6
What we've got here is failure to drink the kool-aid. I haven't laughed this hard in a long time!
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