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Post by geoffrey on Sept 6, 2010 11:16:53 GMT -6
I suggest reading "Books to Games? Perhaps!" by Arn Ashleigh Parker in Dragon #96. He suggests using Tolkien's Middle-earth as the PAST of your D&D campaign world. Imagine having Prof. Tolkien's entire Middle-earth corpus as your campaign background. A brilliant man worked on that for 57 years, and you can nick the whole thing in less than 57 seconds! The last events that occurred in Tolkien's Middle-earth happened in the year 120 of the Fourth Age: Aragorn and Arwen died, and Legolas and Gimli went over the Sea. Thus the curtain fell on Tolkien's Middle-earth... ...and the curtain rises on YOUR Middle-earth! In the main, we would need to explain the presence of the following in Middle-earth: 1. non-Valar gods and clerics 2. Vancian magic 3. D&D magic items 4. D&D monsters Instead of cataclysmic events, I'd have a relatively slow development. A letter Tolkien wrote on Oct. 14, 1958 states: "I suspect they [the two Istari other than Saruman, Gandalf, and Radagast] were founders or beginners of secret cults and 'magic' traditions that outlasted the fall of Sauron." Looking at that from a D&D perspective, I'd make those two wizards the founders of Vancian magic, both magic-user spells and cleric spells. That takes care of #2 and part of #1. You'll notice that D&D gods are quite a bit less powerful than Tolkien's Valar. I'd have D&D gods be former humans (or kobolds in the case of kobold gods, dwarves in the case of dwarven gods, etc.). We can learn from Frank Mentzer here. That takes care of the rest of #1. Magic-users and clerics created the D&D magic items. Thus #3 is explained. D&D monsters I'd have come from two main sources: First, Gary Gygax wrote the following: "I always assumed that the strange creatures in the D&D fantasy world were natives of another world. This is implicit in most folklore and fantasy alike." (link: www.dragonsfoot.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=25410 ) In light of this, we can assume that the Vancian wizards and clerics opened gates that let the D&D monsters into Middle-earth. Second, Gandalf said, "There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world." That could be drow, kuo-toa, jermlaine, etc. Thus #4 is accounted for. In a nutshell, the two Blue Wizards brought A/D&D to Middle-earth.
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Post by Finarvyn on Sept 6, 2010 19:05:43 GMT -6
A great idea, which is in part why I like to run 4th Age stories in Middle-earth. Let the LotR stuff be in the past, which gives a flavor and history and gives players some sense as to what is where ... yet at the same time you can change and alter as desired. I know that JRRT gave up on his "Return of the Shadow" story (set 100 years or so after LotR) since he thought that all of the really interesting tales had already been told, but I suspect that one could come up with some neat ideas and go with them anyway!
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Post by kesher on Sept 12, 2010 19:06:21 GMT -6
Um, WHAT?? Too cool, and exactly right for what you're suggesting! Geoffrey, be thou Exalted! for this thread, the article, and that quote.
You could also explain all the weird creatures by assuming that Sauron's presence and final fall weakened the barriers between worlds.
I'd also still be tempted to make Beleriand findable, too, hidden by a mighty glamor that slowly decays as the Valar finally withdraw, instead of sunk beneath the waves...
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Post by aldarron on Sept 13, 2010 10:10:09 GMT -6
Heh, I'm not sure of the need to justify monkeyshines to the Middle Earth setting with obscure Tolkien and Gygax references but I'm impressed with your sleuthing nonetheless! I think those are great ideas Geoffrey, except that I wouldn't import more than a handful of D&D monsters. Middle Earth has monsters aplenty and adding in a bunch of new and often out of character ones would spoil the Tolkien flavor for me, at least if the adventures were taking place in the usual M.E. places.
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Post by kesher on Sept 13, 2010 10:48:34 GMT -6
...I wouldn't import more than a handful of D&D monsters. Middle Earth has monsters aplenty and adding in a bunch of new and often out of character ones would spoil the Tolkien flavor for me, at least if the adventures were taking place in the usual M.E. places. That's a good point---it'd be cool to keep most monsters almost completely unique, tied to locations like Shelob, the Balrog, and the giant spiders of Mirkwood.
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Post by Finarvyn on Sept 13, 2010 19:03:33 GMT -6
And don't forget the presence of undead. Lots of 'em, and nasty! * The barrow wights in the Old Forrest. * The dead warriors that Aragorn recruited. * Nazgul are undead.
This would be particularly interesting if a DM doesn't allow clerics....
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Post by kesher on Sept 20, 2010 14:25:30 GMT -6
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Post by blackbarn on Oct 20, 2010 16:40:12 GMT -6
I was thinking about something in the quoted information Philotomy posted, about which races use magic and why.
"The fate of the Elves: The Elves see themselves as two different parts: the Fëa (spirit) and the Hroa (body). The two parts are not bound to each other, but without the Hroa, the Fea is powerless, and with no spirit, the body is dead and will soon dissolve."
Does this mean the spirit part of Elves is what lets them use magic? And could this be the idea behind having D&D Elves advance in two classes, M-U and Fighting-Man (spirit/body)?
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bycrom
Level 3 Conjurer
Posts: 90
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Post by bycrom on Oct 28, 2010 18:55:18 GMT -6
By Crom! I found this while ransacking the ancient Library of the Dragons' Foot: www.dragonsfoot.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=25358Tolkien would've been a totally old-school DM...look how he had Aragorn take his pummelled army into the very maw of the enemy, outnumbered more than ten to one at those Black Gates...with all hope appearing to be lost for the Ring Bearer...still he had him choose to [glow=red,2,300]FIGHT ON![/glow]
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Post by thegreyelf on Nov 9, 2010 14:01:49 GMT -6
Nazgul are wraiths or spectres, depending on your preference, and fell beasts are wyverns.
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premmy
Level 5 Thaumaturgist
Posts: 295
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Post by premmy on Nov 9, 2010 15:16:15 GMT -6
Don't mean to pick on this single post, but this is something I've seen come up with some regularity in various "let's run XXX setting in OD&D" threads around the Net, and it's been bothering me. In the main, we would need to explain the presence of the following in Middle-earth: 1. non-Valar gods and clerics Why exactly do we need non-Valar gods in a Middle Earth game? (Other than a few rogue Maiar, that could fit easily.) Why do we need Vancian magic in a setting that's neither "Generic D&D", nor a published D&D setting, nor one based on Dying Earth? Why do we need to have each and every official D&D magic item in the game? By now this might sound repetitive, but why do we need to have all those D&D monsters in a Middle Earth campaign? Like I said above, this attitude comes up with some regularity. "I want a campaign based on specific setting X, but I insist on using every single D&D-ism, including the ones that feel totally out of place in X. No, I don't see an inherent contradiction, why?" It's like saying I want to convert my boring stock automobile into a hot rod, but I insist on doing it without touching it at all. I'm not willing to fiddle with the engine, put on some spoilers, or even just paint it red, but I do expect to make a hot rod without any of those. Won't happen. It seems so elementary to me, I'm flabbergasted at all those contrary notions. If you want to play setting X because you happen to like the style, sensibilities and trappings of X, then you don't overwrite all those sensibilities and trappings with patently non-X elements. I mean, you could, but then don't be surprised that your game fails to feel like X at all.
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Post by Falconer on Nov 9, 2010 15:41:27 GMT -6
A simple matter of perspective. It’s not that I want to add D&D-isms into my Middle-earth. It’s simply that I want more Middle-earth-isms in my D&D. I don’t see what’s so flabbergasting about that.
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premmy
Level 5 Thaumaturgist
Posts: 295
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Post by premmy on Nov 9, 2010 17:42:09 GMT -6
Well, it is a matter of perspective, and good luck with your goal.
Having said that, I think there's still one problem: style is not just a matter of what you put in, but also of what you leave out. For example, Lord of the Rings is defined not just by what attributes and sensibilities it has as High Fantasy (black and white morality, "demihumans", the heroes affecting the fate of the world), but also by what it doesn't. It doesn't have a protagonist transplanted from real life Earth (as in Planetary Romance), or widespread moral corruption within civilised society (as in Sword&Sorcery); and if you added these elements, it would no longer feel like proper High Fantasy.
I'm sure you see what I'm getting at: IMO it's not possible to simply add elements of (in this case) Middle Earth into the generic mishmash of D&D and expecting them to retain their Middle Earth flavour - the flavour comes exactly from having just those certain elements and nothing more.
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Post by Falconer on Nov 9, 2010 19:43:07 GMT -6
[ The Lord of the Rings] doesn't have a protagonist transplanted from real life Earth (as in Planetary Romance) The protagonists of The Book of Lost Tales, The Lost Road, The Notion Club Papers, and Smith of Wootton Major are all “transplanted from real life Earth”. Even Bilbo Baggins, the protagonist of The Hobbit, is a thinly-veiled surrogate for that type of character. I'm sure you see what I'm getting at: IMO it's not possible to simply add elements of (in this case) Middle Earth into the generic mishmash of D&D and expecting them to retain their Middle Earth flavour - the flavour comes exactly from having just those certain elements and nothing more. Nah, dude, sorry but I disagree. I don’t see Gygaxian D&D as “generic,” but rather very “flavorful” in its own right. Middle-earth elements already contribute hugely to that flavor, and I see no harm in adding more. You wouldn’t blanch at adding a monster from a Conan story into D&D, would you? Or Norse gods? Well, I use Elvish languages and script and sub-races from Tolkien in my campaigns. I call Hobbits and Nazgûl and Ents and Balrogs by their proper names, and don’t see any reason to reimagine or genericize them. I also use Vulcans and Nyarlathotep and White Apes and Losels. I use gods from Dragonlance and dungeons from Judges Guild. I embrace the mishmash and don’t hold back the flavor! I can understand the desire to run a more “pure” Middle-earth experience, but, as a game I don’t see how that would be the most fun. Regards.
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Post by apeloverage on Nov 10, 2010 8:53:17 GMT -6
"I always assumed that the strange creatures in the D&D fantasy world were natives of another world. This is implicit in most folklore and fantasy alike." That sounds like lots of fantasy, but from what I know of Tolkien, monsters aren't likely to be arrivals from another world. On the contrary, often they've been in the world longer than humans and, in their corner of the world, humans are the outsiders. Usually Tolkien seems to associate the forest with goodness, but sufficiently wild and remote places can be hostile and evil. Monsters could also be good beings that became corrupted, or evil members of largely good races. Then there are the various orcs and trolls etc that are created by evil beings.
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Post by Falconer on Nov 10, 2010 9:02:12 GMT -6
I love the description of the Witch-King’s mount: “The great shadow descended like a falling cloud. And behold! it was a winged creature: if bird, then greater than all other birds, and it was naked, and neither quill nor feather did it bear, and its vast pinions were as webs of hide between horned fingers; and it stank. A creature of an older world maybe it was, whose kind, lingering in forgotten mountains cold beneath the Moon, outstayed their day, and in hideous eyrie bred this last untimely brood, apt to evil. And the Dark Lord took it, and nursed it with fell meats, until it grew beyond the measure of all other things that fly; and he gave it to his servant to be his steed. Down, down it came, and then, folding its fingered webs, it gave a croaking cry, and settled upon the body of Snowmane, digging in its claws, stooping its long naked neck.” What the heck is that, a pterodactyl? The mention of “an older world” always stuck with me, as well as “forgotten mountains cold beneath the Moon”.
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Post by Falconer on Nov 10, 2010 9:07:32 GMT -6
Another favorite monster passage, from The Fall of Gondolin: “Yet these years are filled by Melko in the utmost ferment of labour, and all the thrall-folk of the Noldoli must dig unceasingly for metals while Melko sitteth and deviseth fires and calleth flames and smokes to come from the lower heats, nor doth he suffer any of the Noldoli to stray ever a foot from their places of bondage. Then on a time Melko assembled all his most cunning smiths and sorcerers, and of iron and flame they wrought a host of monsters such as have only at that time been seen and shall not again be till the Great End. Some were all of iron so cunningly linked that they might flow like slow rivers of metal or coil themselves around and above all obstacles before them, and these were filled in their innermost depths with the grimmest of the Orcs with scimitars and spears; others of bronze and copper were given hearts and spirits of blazing fire, and they blasted all that stood before them with the terror of their snorting or trampled whatso escaped the ardour of their breath; yet others were creatures of pure flame that writhed like ropes of molten metal, and they brought to ruin whatever fabric they came nigh, and iron and stone melted before them and became as water, and upon them rode the Balrogs in hundreds; and these were the most dire of all those monsters which Melko devised against Gondolin.” Yeah, weird science!
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Post by geoffrey on Nov 10, 2010 16:29:55 GMT -6
The Fall of Gondolin is my favorite part of the tales of the Silmarils. It's too bad that Tolkien never finished his revised version of the tale (found in Unfinished Tales). It's also too bad he never did a complete lay of the fall of Gondolin.
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arcadayn
Level 5 Thaumaturgist
Posts: 236
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Post by arcadayn on Nov 13, 2010 7:12:32 GMT -6
I haven't seen this mentioned around here, so I thought I'd bring it up: Campaign Cartographer 3 has an add on in the Cartographer's Annual 2008 that allows you to create Pete Fenlon style maps. Pete designed (most by hand) all of the awesome maps in the MERP line. sub.profantasy.com/2008/
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Post by Finarvyn on Nov 13, 2010 18:12:39 GMT -6
The Fall of Gondolin is my favorite part of the tales of the Silmarils. It's too bad that Tolkien never finished his revised version of the tale (found in Unfinished Tales). It's also too bad he never did a complete lay of the fall of Gondolin. Too bad that Peter Jackson isn't making a bunch of Silmarillion movies.
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Post by thegreyelf on Nov 13, 2010 22:09:18 GMT -6
No doubt, Fin. I'd love to see a film of The Children of Hurin
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Post by harami2000 on Nov 14, 2010 9:37:55 GMT -6
By now this might sound repetitive, but why do we need to have all those D&D monsters in a Middle Earth campaign? I'll personally stick with the "why not" answers given elsewhere in the thread. It worked well for Bob Bledsaw & co., anyhow. At the very least, that gets you a decent map and background ecology to work from without having to undertake a large amount of personal work. (And even before D&D for one particular large scale wargaming campaign in Middle Earth - which also used the post-LotR timeframe approach - where there was even a convincing sounding hybridised usage of E.R. Eddison beyond those familiar bounds).
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premmy
Level 5 Thaumaturgist
Posts: 295
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Post by premmy on Nov 14, 2010 10:41:31 GMT -6
I'll personally stick with the "why not" answers given elsewhere in the thread. It worked well for Bob Bledsaw & co., anyhow. At the very least, that gets you a decent map and background ecology to work from without having to undertake a large amount of personal work. But it will no longer be a Middle Earth campaign. It will be a Blackmoor campaign set in the Blackmoor setting where the landmasses are shaped differently. If that's what you want to do, great, have fun with it; but don't call it a "Middle Earth campaign" because it isn't.
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Post by harami2000 on Nov 14, 2010 11:01:46 GMT -6
But it will no longer be a Middle Earth campaign. It will be a Blackmoor campaign set in the Blackmoor setting where the landmasses are shaped differently. If that's what you want to do, great, have fun with it; but don't call it a "Middle Earth campaign" because it isn't. It's a campaign. It's set in or uses Middle Earth as a basis. Even from a relatively purist perspective, the Fourth Age is pretty much open season and there are ample loose ends that can be utilised/integrated. By your definition, how can anyone "play a Middle Earth campaign" other than by replaying the events in the books, since everything else is speculation? Jack Vance's settings are no less a "mythical time within the history of Earth" since "myths" can be either past or future. p.s. Bledsaw and co. started before Greyhawk was published, far less Blackmoor. How much do you actually know about their campaigning in Middle Earth?
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premmy
Level 5 Thaumaturgist
Posts: 295
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Post by premmy on Nov 14, 2010 17:02:25 GMT -6
By your definition, how can anyone "play a Middle Earth campaign" other than by replaying the events in the books, since everything else is speculation? Jack Vance's settings are no less a "mythical time within the history of Earth" since "myths" can be either past or future. I've already adressed this (namely, the matter of incompatible "feel" or "style") in two earlier posts, so I hope you don't mind if I don't write out the exact same explanation again. Have you played with Mr Bledsaw and co. in the aforementioned campaign, and therefore speak from experience? Because if not, then I hardly see their venture relevant to the present debate - that is, the one about whether or not such a thing could WORK and actually FEEL like Middle Earth, not the one about whether you could just stamp "M.E." on something that isn't. EDIT: Oh, and apparently Bob Bledsaw himself described the magic a "misfit" in that campaign, so perhaps it's not best example to prove the possibility of seamless adaption without rules editing.
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Post by harami2000 on Nov 14, 2010 18:19:37 GMT -6
Pity... there was a relatively constructive discussion ongoing in this thread until about mid-way down the third page.
When was OD&D ever not house-ruled?
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Post by cooper on Nov 14, 2010 20:01:09 GMT -6
Tolkien spoke quite a bit about werewolves and vampires. There is an island of werewolves and sauron often took the form of a vampire when he took up residence in mirkwood forest.
Wood elves would be the default elf (I'm partial to bakshi's vision) who are often ruled by grey elves (as is the case of mirkwood elves who's leader is legolas' father as well as the elves galandriel and celeborn lead).
High elves would be adolescent grey elves, like legolas.
Setting a game for the 1000 years proceeding the hobbit would be a blast. High magic, you could participate in running the necromancer of bar dul (sauron) out of mirkwood back to mordor.
Morgoth and other valar = 20th+ level Powerful Lesser valar like sauron = 13-16th Lesser valar
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Post by Falconer on Nov 14, 2010 21:25:00 GMT -6
But he used Werewolf and Vampire to mean Giant Evil Wolf and Giant Evil Bat, respectively. Just pointing out he didn’t mean them in a “Twilight” way at all. My thoughts on Elves are at my Middle-earth forum at K&KA. Regarding connecting Blackmoor and Middle-earth, my thoughts are at the Piazza.
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Post by talysman on Nov 15, 2010 1:19:36 GMT -6
But he used Werewolf and Vampire to mean Giant Evil Wolf and Giant Evil Bat, respectively. Just pointing out he didn’t mean them in a “Twilight” way at all. Oh, great, now you have me imagining an angsty teen Sauron who sparkles.
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premmy
Level 5 Thaumaturgist
Posts: 295
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Post by premmy on Nov 15, 2010 6:03:11 GMT -6
When was OD&D ever not house-ruled? That's exactly what I am saying. I'm a great proponent of houseruling, and in fact my first post was arguing against the notion that Middle Earth should be played without tweaking the system.
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