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Post by coffee on Sept 30, 2009 0:37:17 GMT -6
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Post by machfront on Sept 30, 2009 2:52:59 GMT -6
Same here. "Halflings", to me, always seemed a derogatory name.
It helps that Tunnels & Trolls (being my go-to game) has always referred to them as Hobbits.
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Post by James Maliszewski on Sept 30, 2009 9:33:34 GMT -6
It helps that Tunnels & Trolls (being my go-to game) has always referred to them as Hobbits. As of the most recent edition, T&T calls them "hobbs" instead. I have no idea if this is the first time the name has been used rather than "hobbits," which I know was in the 5th Edition I played as a younger man.
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Post by geoffrey on Sept 30, 2009 10:04:45 GMT -6
"Halflings", to me, always seemed a derogatory name. I seem to remember an exchange in Tolkien's The Return of the King between Pippin and a man of Gondor in which the latter refers to Pippin as a "halfling" and is corrected by Pippin. I could be completely misremembering, though.
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Post by coffee on Sept 30, 2009 12:24:16 GMT -6
I do know Tolkien used the word Halfling (seems to me more than once, but I could be mistaken). So I always thought it odd that Hobbit was taboo but Halfling was not.
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Post by chronoplasm on Sept 30, 2009 13:05:14 GMT -6
My little sister calls them 'Hoppits', with a p instead of a b. I actually like that better for some reason.
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Post by machfront on Sept 30, 2009 17:15:38 GMT -6
It helps that Tunnels & Trolls (being my go-to game) has always referred to them as Hobbits. As of the most recent edition, T&T calls them "hobbs" instead. I have no idea if this is the first time the name has been used rather than "hobbits," which I know was in the 5th Edition I played as a younger man. Yep. Never before that, though. (7.x changed mention of Orcs as well, oddly.)
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Post by machfront on Sept 30, 2009 17:17:53 GMT -6
"Halflings", to me, always seemed a derogatory name. I seem to remember an exchange in Tolkien's The Return of the King between Pippin and a man of Gondor in which the latter refers to Pippin as a "halfling" and is corrected by Pippin. I could be completely misremembering, though. I recall that or something similar as well. The word made me think of that sort of thing, and later, after the film Willow was released, it would remind me of the soldiers referring to the Nelwyns as "Pecks".
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jjarvis
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Post by jjarvis on Oct 2, 2009 7:09:18 GMT -6
I do know Tolkien used the word Halfling (seems to me more than once, but I could be mistaken). So I always thought it odd that Hobbit was taboo but Halfling was not. Halfling is a more generic term and not certainly original as the invention of "Hobbit" by Tolkien.
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Post by Haldo Bramwise on Oct 2, 2009 7:19:17 GMT -6
*Brave Hobbit Publishing* I don't think it will work.
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Post by abecross on Oct 3, 2009 10:59:05 GMT -6
I like Hobbits and have always used that name in my own games. "Halflings" sounds a bit boring.
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Post by bluskreem on Oct 4, 2009 11:08:12 GMT -6
In my first BX game I had a Character named Trebbalin 'Obit, because I couldn't stop referring to him as a hobbit. I didn't find out that halflings were hobbits in early OD&D. In a lot of my early games I gave halflings a germanic culture. they pronounced their name as Hall-fling with a German accent. I have no clue where this concept came from, but to this day I still picture most halflings in lederhausen.
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Post by snorri on Oct 4, 2009 11:46:36 GMT -6
The first french official translation of the Red Box translated Halflings into "Tinigens", a neologism which appeared only there. You can identify a real old-schooler when he speaks of Tinigens. Apparently, it's by itself an anglicism based on 'tiny', gens being a french word for 'people' - so the 'tiny people'.
I recently discovered the unoficial Holmes translation, in the begining of 80's, did translate Halflings into Gnomes, a version I find rather interesting.
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Post by ragnorakk on Oct 4, 2009 17:36:57 GMT -6
That is interesting, and kind of how I look at them in non-Tolkien sense - more a folklore/fairy thing. I'm pretty sure I remember Vance calling some fairies halflings in Madouc (maybe?). The way I house-rule AD&D these days, they are interchangable.
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bat
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Post by bat on Oct 6, 2009 11:33:33 GMT -6
The word "hob" or "hobb" appears in Katherine Brigg's "A Dictionary of Faeries" and is thought to be one of the roots of Tolkien's "hobbit", although, on Clash of the Gods last night, which was concerning Tolkien's Monsters, it was theorized that as hobbit are naturally homebodies that they are creatures of habit, habit as the alleged root word. I tend to think that Tolkien was using hob myself, who knows?
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benoist
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Post by benoist on Oct 6, 2009 12:39:26 GMT -6
I do know Tolkien used the word Halfling (seems to me more than once, but I could be mistaken). So I always thought it odd that Hobbit was taboo but Halfling was not. *nod* That's because "halfling" is a generic term derived from the English language, whereas "hobbit" is a term Tolkien came up with all by himself. Tolkien Enterprises thought it was copyright infringement (and it was, to be honest).
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Post by chronoplasm on Oct 6, 2009 12:47:05 GMT -6
It's like the hobbits are being held captive by orcs and we have to go save them!
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Post by coffee on Oct 6, 2009 15:15:48 GMT -6
*nod* That's because "halfling" is a generic term derived from the English language, whereas "hobbit" is a term Tolkien came up with all by himself. Tolkien Enterprises thought it was copyright infringement (and it was, to be honest). Since people are apparently not clicking the link in the initial post, I'll go ahead and copy some of it over: (emphasis added) This was kind of my whole point in posting this in the first place: Since Tolkien admittedly didn't create the word, it seems like we have a moral (if not legal) right to use it.
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benoist
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Post by benoist on Oct 6, 2009 15:42:44 GMT -6
Thanks coffee!
The story I know is that Tolkien was grading copies of students when suddenly he wrote on a blank graduation paper "In a hole lived a hobbit..."
The meaning of the sentence escaped him for some time, until he picked it up again and came up with the story we all know as "The Hobbit". It is my impression that Tolkien was saying that he didn't 'invent' the name as in "consciouly made it up", but rather, the term came spontaneously to his mind. I don't remember any allusion in the correspondance or HoME where he would have hinted at an anterior origin of the word. The fact there would be a prior mention in a "19th century folklore journal", as the article claims, is a breakthrough, really.
I'm sorry I didn't click the link of the OP earlier. My apologies for that. Fascinating.
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Post by snorri on Oct 6, 2009 15:46:57 GMT -6
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Post by coffee on Oct 6, 2009 16:22:49 GMT -6
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bat
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Post by bat on Oct 7, 2009 4:42:34 GMT -6
I believe that one of the stumbling blocks in this endeavor is the gentle warping of reality into the belief that Tolkien DID invent the word "hobbit", as evidenced in the Clash of the Gods: Tolkien's Monsters, in which "scholars" were rambling on about how J.R.R. Tolkien invented the word.
Were truer words written than in the Warhammer Chaos book, Slaves to the Darkness than: "The ultimate prize is the nature of reality."? It doesn't matter what a few believe to be true, whether it is true or not, but what the consensus believes, even if they are unwitting sheep.
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Post by Ghul on Oct 7, 2009 7:16:17 GMT -6
Also, don't forget in Greyhawk they are called hobniz.
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palmer
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Post by palmer on Oct 7, 2009 9:51:53 GMT -6
"But since that time, as reported in an OED newsletter, the word has been found in a 19th century folklore journal."
So, does anyone know what the name of this folklore journal is? Or what exactly is says about the name, hobbit? I would be very interested to hear what sort of creature the name was attached too before Tolkien!
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benoist
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Post by benoist on Oct 7, 2009 9:55:34 GMT -6
I agree. It'd be fascinating to know what was in that folklore journal.
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Post by snorri on Oct 7, 2009 11:19:37 GMT -6
I had a lok with book.google.com, using the advanced search method, and searched 'hobbit' between 1500 and 1920. The result is really interesting: the Hugues vs Humphrey judgment, in 1854 discuss exactlty what a hobbit. Answer : A sale of wheat took place at a price per "hobbit." It appeared that the " hobbit" was a term used in Wales to express a quantity consisting of four pecks, each peck weighing forty-two pounds; and that the wheat in question had been delivered to the purchaser in sacks containing six pecks or 252 pounds, mid the custom was so to deliver it, the sacks on such occasions being weighed, and the quantity in each sack increased or reduced to 252 poundsbooks.google.fr/books?id=ADAwAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA131&dq=hobbit&lr=&as_drrb_is=b&as_minm_is=0&as_miny_is=1500&as_maxm_is=0&as_maxy_is=1920&num=100&as_brr=0&ei=fb3MSsqrJ4_YNdyfiPYI#v=onepage&q=hobbit&f=falseSo, the Hobbit is a old measure for wheat in 19th century wales (and as a hobbit worth four pecks, it explain why Willow is a peck...).This use is confirmed, among other sources, by the Farmers magazine, in 1858. books.google.fr/books?id=-AlQAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA202&dq=hobbit&lr=&as_drrb_is=b&as_minm_is=0&as_miny_is=1500&as_maxm_is=0&as_maxy_is=1920&num=100&as_brr=0&ei=fb3MSsqrJ4_YNdyfiPYI#v=onepage&q=hobbit&f=falseIt gves a first clue why Hobbit sounded, to Tolkien's ears, somewhat linked to a peaceful farmers people. Another very interesting point is that James Grant, a relative of Wlater Scott and author of historical novels ( en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Grant_(author)) states The Scottish cavalier : "" Here's to ye, my bonny lady, and to you, Cummer Elsie, and never may ye be tarbarrelled for a' you're sae rankled and auld ; hech, how! " and, drinking the ale to the last drop, this rough and uncourtepus old fellow tossed the bicker to Elsie and limped away with great agility. ' Ha, ha! " he laughed, when the barbican gate was angrily banged behind him : "how the gay goshawk pounced at the lure ; wha would hae thought I would ever hae hobbit and nobbit wi' lucky Elshender after puir Meg's misehanter among her kale r This carolus comes in gude time, for my pouch is gey empty now. Deil tak' the patches and scratches, the rags and bags," he continued tearing off his disguise; " again I am Juden Stenton,
" And wha daur meddle wi' me ? Wha daur meddle wi' me ?
My name it's Juden Stenton, And wha daur meddle wi' me ?" 'books.google.fr/books?pg=PA407&dq=hobbit&lr=&as_drrb_is=b&as_minm_is=0&as_miny_is=1500&as_maxm_is=0&as_maxy_is=1920&ei=-L3MSprJL56yNL2psIkI&id=VLI9AAAAYAAJ&num=100&as_brr=0#v=onepage&q=hobbit&f=false(please alos have a look on the handsome frontpage picture of the same book) The text is rather unclear, and pretty dialectal for the frenchman I am, but it's clear once again that the word hobbit appears in this 1852 novel. Tolkien was absolutely true when he said he didn't invented the word. I saerched a bit about the nobbit, which is associated to the hobbit. Apart it's current meaning ( www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Nobbit), it seems to be fairly connected to a young lad. Among various literacy uses, I find these two ones which are intersting for our question : " Wh-wh-why, nobbit speak you now," cried he in utter desperation ; " why n-nnobbit you aghe not serious, aghe you ?" He was told he should soon find to his experience that they were quite serious.— " Why, cworse the whole geneghation of you, the thing is nwot to be bwoghn. I wont swoffegh it—that I woll not. It is dwonright mworder. Oh, ho, ho !" and he wept, crying as loud as he could, " Oh-oh ! ho : mworder ! mworder! Domn eveghy Scwot of you!"—In this mood, kicking, crying, and swearing, was he turned oft', and hanged in sight of both hosts.It's a quote from James Hogg, another author which Tolkien could have read, as being linked to Scottish ballads and another friend of Walter Scott ( en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Hogg). books.google.fr/books?pg=PA121&dq=nobbit&lr=&as_drrb_is=b&as_minm_is=0&as_miny_is=1500&as_maxm_is=0&as_maxy_is=1920&ei=3cnMSoqHPIfSNIWxsYsI&id=yrkBAAAAQAAJ&num=100&as_brr=0#v=onepage&q=nobbit&f=falseAnother one is : He addles three ha'pence a week, That's nobbit a fardin a day ; He sits with a pipe in his cheek, And he fuddles his money away.
Please not the association bewteen Nobbit and Pipe ! This is a peom from John Bell ( www.seaham.i12.com/myers/m-bell2.html), in his Rhymes of northern bards. Another book which could have been amongs JRR Tolkien's readings. books.google.fr/books?pg=PA301&dq=nobbit&lr=&as_drrb_is=b&as_minm_is=0&as_miny_is=1500&as_maxm_is=0&as_maxy_is=1920&ei=3cnMSoqHPIfSNIWxsYsI&id=CsEUAAAAQAAJ&num=100&as_brr=0&output=textThis is only a clue among others, but I guess the 'hobbit and nobbit' was worth to be noted and could be explored further. Let's claim hobbits
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bat
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Post by bat on Oct 7, 2009 11:53:32 GMT -6
Let's claim hobbits I am not normally a "path of least resistance" type of guy, but wouldn't it just be easier to claim nobbits and make it look like a clever typographical error?
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benoist
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Post by benoist on Oct 7, 2009 15:22:22 GMT -6
Absolutely FASCINATING. This is awesome. Thanks for the search, Snorri!
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Post by coffee on Oct 7, 2009 15:28:37 GMT -6
That's some great detective work there, Snorri! Have an exalt for that!
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palmer
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Post by palmer on Oct 7, 2009 21:05:56 GMT -6
"' Ha, ha! " he laughed, when the barbican gate was angrily banged behind him : "how the gay goshawk pounced at the lure ; wha would hae thought I would ever hae hobbit and nobbit wi' lucky Elshender after puir Meg's misehanter among her kale r This carolus comes in gude time, for my pouch is gey empty now. Deil tak' the patches and scratches, the rags and bags," he continued tearing off his disguise; " again I am Juden Stenton,"
This looks like the use of "hobbit" is similar to the word, "hob-nob" meaning small talk. Heh, small talk.
It also looks like,"nobbit", refers to a small amount, of tobbacco in this case.
This is a great find, Snorri! Thanks.
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