Let's take back the hobbits!

[coffee]

I for one, have rarely used the word "halfling". They're bloody hobbits, they are, and I for one call them that. Pretty much always have done.

And here is some additional light that can be shed on the name: blog.oup.com/2009/09/hobbit-%E2%80%93-podictionary-word-of-the-day/

[machfront]

Same here. "Halflings", to me, always seemed a derogatory name.

It helps that Tunnels & Trolls (being my go-to game) has always referred to them as Hobbits.

[James Maliszewski]

Sept 30, 2009 2:52:59 GMT -6 machfront said:

It helps that Tunnels & Trolls (being my go-to game) has always referred to them as Hobbits.

As of the most recent edition, T&T calls them "hobbs" instead. I have no idea if this is the first time the name has been used rather than "hobbits," which I know was in the 5th Edition I played as a younger man.

[geoffrey]

Sept 30, 2009 2:52:59 GMT -6 machfront said:

"Halflings", to me, always seemed a derogatory name.

I seem to remember an exchange in Tolkien's The Return of the King between Pippin and a man of Gondor in which the latter refers to Pippin as a "halfling" and is corrected by Pippin. I could be completely misremembering, though.

[coffee]

I do know Tolkien used the word Halfling (seems to me more than once, but I could be mistaken). So I always thought it odd that Hobbit was taboo but Halfling was not.

[chronoplasm]

My little sister calls them 'Hoppits', with a p instead of a b. I actually like that better for some reason.

[machfront]

Sept 30, 2009 9:33:34 GMT -6 James Maliszewski said:

Sept 30, 2009 2:52:59 GMT -6 machfront said:

It helps that Tunnels & Trolls (being my go-to game) has always referred to them as Hobbits.

As of the most recent edition, T&T calls them "hobbs" instead. I have no idea if this is the first time the name has been used rather than "hobbits," which I know was in the 5th Edition I played as a younger man.

Yep. Never before that, though. (7.x changed mention of Orcs as well, oddly.)

[machfront]

Sept 30, 2009 10:04:45 GMT -6 geoffrey said:

Sept 30, 2009 2:52:59 GMT -6 machfront said:

"Halflings", to me, always seemed a derogatory name.

I seem to remember an exchange in Tolkien's The Return of the King between Pippin and a man of Gondor in which the latter refers to Pippin as a "halfling" and is corrected by Pippin. I could be completely misremembering, though.

I recall that or something similar as well. The word made me think of that sort of thing, and later, after the film Willow was released, it would remind me of the soldiers referring to the Nelwyns as "Pecks".

[jjarvis]

Sept 30, 2009 12:24:16 GMT -6 coffee said:

I do know Tolkien used the word Halfling (seems to me more than once, but I could be mistaken). So I always thought it odd that Hobbit was taboo but Halfling was not.

Halfling is a more generic term and not certainly original as the invention of "Hobbit" by Tolkien.

[Haldo Bramwise]

*Brave Hobbit Publishing*

I don't think it will work.

[abecross]

I like Hobbits and have always used that name in my own games. "Halflings" sounds a bit boring.

[bluskreem]

In my first BX game I had a Character named Trebbalin 'Obit, because I couldn't stop referring to him as a hobbit. I didn't find out that halflings were hobbits in early OD&D.
In a lot of my early games I gave halflings a germanic culture. they pronounced their name as Hall-fling with a German accent. I have no clue where this concept came from, but to this day I still picture most halflings in lederhausen.

[snorri]

The first french official translation of the Red Box translated Halflings into "Tinigens", a neologism which appeared only there. You can identify a real old-schooler when he speaks of Tinigens. Apparently, it's by itself an anglicism based on 'tiny', gens being a french word for 'people' - so the 'tiny people'.

I recently discovered the unoficial Holmes translation, in the begining of 80's, did translate Halflings into Gnomes, a version I find rather interesting.

[ragnorakk]

That is interesting, and kind of how I look at them in non-Tolkien sense - more a folklore/fairy thing. I'm pretty sure I remember Vance calling some fairies halflings in Madouc (maybe?). The way I house-rule AD&D these days, they are interchangable.

[bat]

The word "hob" or "hobb" appears in Katherine Brigg's "A Dictionary of Faeries" and is thought to be one of the roots of Tolkien's "hobbit", although, on Clash of the Gods last night, which was concerning Tolkien's Monsters, it was theorized that as hobbit are naturally homebodies that they are creatures of habit, habit as the alleged root word. I tend to think that Tolkien was using hob myself, who knows?

[benoist]

Sept 30, 2009 12:24:16 GMT -6 coffee said:

I do know Tolkien used the word Halfling (seems to me more than once, but I could be mistaken). So I always thought it odd that Hobbit was taboo but Halfling was not.

*nod* That's because "halfling" is a generic term derived from the English language, whereas "hobbit" is a term Tolkien came up with all by himself. Tolkien Enterprises thought it was copyright infringement (and it was, to be honest).

[chronoplasm]

It's like the hobbits are being held captive by orcs and we have to go save them!

[coffee]

Oct 6, 2009 12:39:26 GMT -6 benoist said:

*nod* That's because "halfling" is a generic term derived from the English language, whereas "hobbit" is a term Tolkien came up with all by himself. Tolkien Enterprises thought it was copyright infringement (and it was, to be honest).

Since people are apparently not clicking the link in the initial post, I'll go ahead and copy some of it over:

The OED is in a unique position of authority because Tolkien actually worked there for a few years early in his career. Plus a later editor had studied under Tolkien’s professorship.

So in the late ‘60s when The Lord of the Rings was making its first rise to popularity the OED added hobbit as an entry.

How better to check out the etymology of the word than to ask its creator?

Except that JRR Tolkien denied having created the word.

He helped them define it as an imaginary people, small but human, whose name means ‘hole-dweller’ but did not claim credit for their invention.

No citations were found that predated Tolkien’s 1937 use in the book of the same name, so that’s what’s given as hobbit’s earliest usage in OED.

But since that time, as reported in an OED newsletter, the word has been found in a 19th century folklore journal.

So even though JRR couldn’t remember where he’d first heard of hobbits, it turns out his denial of inventing them was justified.

(emphasis added)


This was kind of my whole point in posting this in the first place: Since Tolkien admittedly didn't create the word, it seems like we have a moral (if not legal) right to use it.

[benoist]

Thanks coffee!

The story I know is that Tolkien was grading copies of students when suddenly he wrote on a blank graduation paper "In a hole lived a hobbit..."

The meaning of the sentence escaped him for some time, until he picked it up again and came up with the story we all know as "The Hobbit". It is my impression that Tolkien was saying that he didn't 'invent' the name as in "consciouly made it up", but rather, the term came spontaneously to his mind. I don't remember any allusion in the correspondance or HoME where he would have hinted at an anterior origin of the word. The fact there would be a prior mention in a "19th century folklore journal", as the article claims, is a breakthrough, really.

I'm sorry I didn't click the link of the OP earlier. My apologies for that. Fascinating.

[snorri]

I coulnd't resist the call : Hobbits in the Unknown !

sites.google.com/site/wizardinabottle/searchers-of-the-unknown/Hobbits.pdf?attredirects=0

[coffee]

Oct 6, 2009 15:46:57 GMT -6 snorri said:

I coulnd't resist the call : Hobbits in the Unknown !

sites.google.com/site/wizardinabottle/searchers-of-the-unknown/Hobbits.pdf?attredirects=0

That's priceless!

[bat]

I believe that one of the stumbling blocks in this endeavor is the gentle warping of reality into the belief that Tolkien DID invent the word "hobbit", as evidenced in the Clash of the Gods: Tolkien's Monsters, in which "scholars" were rambling on about how J.R.R. Tolkien invented the word.

Were truer words written than in the Warhammer Chaos book, Slaves to the Darkness than:
"The ultimate prize is the nature of reality."?
It doesn't matter what a few believe to be true, whether it is true or not, but what the consensus believes, even if they are unwitting sheep.

[Ghul]

Also, don't forget in Greyhawk they are called hobniz.

[palmer]

"But since that time, as reported in an OED newsletter, the word has been found in a 19th century folklore journal."

So, does anyone know what the name of this folklore journal is? Or what exactly is says about the name, hobbit?
I would be very interested to hear what sort of creature the name was attached too before Tolkien!

[benoist]

I agree. It'd be fascinating to know what was in that folklore journal.

[snorri]

I had a lok with book.google.com, using the advanced search method, and searched 'hobbit' between 1500 and 1920. The result is really interesting:

the Hugues vs Humphrey judgment, in 1854 discuss exactlty what a hobbit. Answer : A sale of wheat took place at a price per "hobbit." It appeared that the " hobbit" was a term used in Wales to express a quantity consisting of four pecks, each peck weighing forty-two pounds; and that the wheat in question had been delivered to the purchaser in sacks containing six pecks or 252 pounds, mid the custom was so to deliver it, the sacks on such occasions being weighed, and the quantity in each sack increased or reduced to 252 pounds

books.google.fr/books?id=ADAwAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA131&dq=hobbit&lr=&as_drrb_is=b&as_minm_is=0&as_miny_is=1500&as_maxm_is=0&as_maxy_is=1920&num=100&as_brr=0&ei=fb3MSsqrJ4_YNdyfiPYI#v=onepage&q=hobbit&f=false

So, the Hobbit is a old measure for wheat in 19th century wales (and as a hobbit worth four pecks, it explain why Willow is a peck...).This use is confirmed, among other sources, by the Farmers magazine, in 1858.

books.google.fr/books?id=-AlQAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA202&dq=hobbit&lr=&as_drrb_is=b&as_minm_is=0&as_miny_is=1500&as_maxm_is=0&as_maxy_is=1920&num=100&as_brr=0&ei=fb3MSsqrJ4_YNdyfiPYI#v=onepage&q=hobbit&f=false

It gves a first clue why Hobbit sounded, to Tolkien's ears, somewhat linked to a peaceful farmers people.

Another very interesting point is that James Grant, a relative of Wlater Scott and author of historical novels (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Grant_(author)) states The Scottish cavalier :

"" Here's to ye, my bonny lady, and to you, Cummer Elsie, and never may ye be tarbarrelled for a' you're sae rankled and auld ; hech, how! " and, drinking the ale to the last drop, this rough and uncourtepus old fellow tossed the bicker to Elsie and limped away with great agility.

' Ha, ha! " he laughed, when the barbican gate was angrily banged behind him : "how the gay goshawk pounced at the lure ; wha would hae thought I would ever hae hobbit and nobbit wi' lucky Elshender after puir Meg's misehanter among her kale r This carolus comes in gude time, for my pouch is gey empty now. Deil tak' the patches and scratches, the rags and bags," he continued tearing off his disguise; " again I am Juden Stenton,

" And wha daur meddle wi' me ?
Wha daur meddle wi' me ?

My name it's Juden Stenton,
And wha daur meddle wi' me ?" '

books.google.fr/books?pg=PA407&dq=hobbit&lr=&as_drrb_is=b&as_minm_is=0&as_miny_is=1500&as_maxm_is=0&as_maxy_is=1920&ei=-L3MSprJL56yNL2psIkI&id=VLI9AAAAYAAJ&num=100&as_brr=0#v=onepage&q=hobbit&f=false

(please alos have a look on the handsome frontpage picture of the same book)

The text is rather unclear, and pretty dialectal for the frenchman I am, but it's clear once again that the word hobbit appears in this 1852 novel. Tolkien was absolutely true when he said he didn't invented the word.

I saerched a bit about the nobbit, which is associated to the hobbit. Apart it's current meaning (www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Nobbit), it seems to be fairly connected to a young lad. Among various literacy uses, I find these two ones which are intersting for our question :

" Wh-wh-why, nobbit speak you now," cried he in utter desperation ; " why n-nnobbit you aghe not serious, aghe you ?" He was told he should soon find to his experience that they were quite serious.— " Why, cworse the whole geneghation of you, the thing is nwot to be bwoghn. I wont swoffegh it—that I woll not. It is dwonright mworder. Oh, ho, ho !" and he wept, crying as loud as he could, " Oh-oh ! ho : mworder ! mworder! Domn eveghy Scwot of you!"—In this mood, kicking, crying, and swearing, was he turned oft', and hanged in sight of both hosts.

It's a quote from James Hogg, another author which Tolkien could have read, as being linked to Scottish ballads and another friend of Walter Scott (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Hogg).

books.google.fr/books?pg=PA121&dq=nobbit&lr=&as_drrb_is=b&as_minm_is=0&as_miny_is=1500&as_maxm_is=0&as_maxy_is=1920&ei=3cnMSoqHPIfSNIWxsYsI&id=yrkBAAAAQAAJ&num=100&as_brr=0#v=onepage&q=nobbit&f=false

Another one is :

He addles three ha'pence a week,
That's nobbit a fardin a day ;
He sits with a pipe in his cheek,
And he fuddles his money away.


Please not the association bewteen Nobbit and Pipe ! This is a peom from John Bell (www.seaham.i12.com/myers/m-bell2.html), in his Rhymes of northern bards. Another book which could have been amongs JRR Tolkien's readings.

books.google.fr/books?pg=PA301&dq=nobbit&lr=&as_drrb_is=b&as_minm_is=0&as_miny_is=1500&as_maxm_is=0&as_maxy_is=1920&ei=3cnMSoqHPIfSNIWxsYsI&id=CsEUAAAAQAAJ&num=100&as_brr=0&output=text

This is only a clue among others, but I guess the 'hobbit and nobbit' was worth to be noted and could be explored further.

Let's claim hobbits

[bat]

Oct 7, 2009 11:19:37 GMT -6 snorri said:

Let's claim hobbits

I am not normally a "path of least resistance" type of guy, but wouldn't it just be easier to claim nobbits and make it look like a clever typographical error?

[benoist]

Absolutely FASCINATING. This is awesome. Thanks for the search, Snorri!

[coffee]

That's some great detective work there, Snorri! Have an exalt for that!

[palmer]

"' Ha, ha! " he laughed, when the barbican gate was angrily banged behind him : "how the gay goshawk pounced at the lure ; wha would hae thought I would ever hae hobbit and nobbit wi' lucky Elshender after puir Meg's misehanter among her kale r This carolus comes in gude time, for my pouch is gey empty now. Deil tak' the patches and scratches, the rags and bags," he continued tearing off his disguise; " again I am Juden Stenton,"

This looks like the use of "hobbit" is similar to the word, "hob-nob" meaning small talk. Heh, small talk.

It also looks like,"nobbit", refers to a small amount, of tobbacco in this case.

This is a great find, Snorri! Thanks.