a D&D campaign in Middle-earth as it was in 1930

[geoffrey]

I've been toying with using the 1974 D&D rules (with no supplements) for a D&D campaign in Middle-earth as it was circa A. D. 1930. Here would be the "Appendix N" bibliography (all by J. R. R. Tolkien):

The Book of Lost Tales 1 (edited by Christopher Tolkien)
The Book of Lost Tales 2 (edited by Christopher Tolkien)
The Lays of Beleriand (edited by Christopher Tolkien)
The Shaping of Middle-earth* (edited by Christopher Tolkien)
The Hobbit (annotated by Douglas Anderson)
The History of the Hobbit*, parts 1 and 2 (edited by John Rateliff)

* These sources most of all.

In this conception, Men awoke with the first rising of the sun and moon less than 300 years ago. The fall of Gondolin, the story of Beren and Luthien, the tragedy of Turin, etc. all happened in the relatively recent past. The events of The Hobbit take place 14 years after Earendel's pleas lead to the defeat of Morgoth by the Valar and the Elves. Gandalf is a human magic-user. The Arkenstone is a Silmaril. The elf-king in The Hobbit is Thingol, and his realm is Doriath. Mirkwood is Taur-na-Fuin. Gondolin was in the Misty Mountains. Etc. The campaign would start perhaps half a dozen years after the end of The Hobbit. Note that in 1930, The Lord of the Rings had not even been conceived.

Since Tolkien's conceptions were relatively fluid over the course of his lifetime, this campaign would pick the time in Tolkien's life in which his mythology seems to me the most D&Dish, and that is 1930. At any given time, Tolkien was uncertain about some of the details of his mythology, and these details would be nailed down ("Tolkien in 1930 went back and forth over whether Thingol had been slain, and for the purposes of this D&D campaign, Thingol was NOT slain"), etc.

For this purpose, I think the 1974 D&D rules could be used pretty much as written.

[Deleted]

Hey, I actually have all those books. Sounds like a feasible plan, but you'll have to deal with the baggage players bring to the game. Lots of data-dumping to be done and preconceived ideas to overcome. It would certainly be good to run a Tolkien campaign rather than a LotR campaign, it would be good to go down the alternate history track and dump LotR altogether as any sort of future (or past) option. I hope you detail your ideas further here Geoffrey.

[Finarvyn]

Geoffrey, you always come up with the coolest ideas!

What about The Annotated Hobbit? I haven't compared it with the two History of the Hobbit books, but it's possible that it contains some good information as well.

I've often wanted to track down an original Hobbit (1937?) before Tolkien re-wrote it, just to see how it differs from the modern version.

May 27, 2011 18:05:02 GMT -6 geoffrey said:

Note that in 1930, The Lord of the Rings had not even been conceived.

This threw me at first, as I was going to suggest adding the ranger class from the Strategic Review. I guess if there is no LotR there isn't a need for rangers.

[geoffrey]

Good point about the annotated edition of The Hobbit.

I am absolutely baffled why the original, 1937 publication of The Hobbit isn't kept in print. The year 2012 will be the 75th anniversary of its publication. I think that would be a great time to permanently put it back into print.

I recommend purchasing Masterpieces of Terror and the Supernatural (ISBN 0-385-18549-9), selected by Marvin Kaye. This 623-page tome includes the 1937 version of the "Riddles in the Dark" chapter of The Hobbit. (This chapter is the one that received the most extensive changes after its initial publication.)

[Deleted]

May 28, 2011 8:34:26 GMT -6 geoffrey said:

I recommend purchasing Masterpieces of Terror and the Supernatural (ISBN 0-385-18549-9), selected by Marvin Kaye. This 623-page tome includes the 1937 version of the "Riddles in the Dark" chapter of The Hobbit.

No need to spend money, here it is online and in a paragraph by paragraph comparison with the revised version.

[Finarvyn]

I've been thinking about this project, and I still think it's awesome, but ... I've been wondering why you picked 1930 as the target date. Wasn't the Hobbit first published in 1937, so your list technically woudn't include the Hobbit? Or do I have my dates mixed up?

[geoffrey]

May 28, 2011 17:33:31 GMT -6 Finarvyn said:

I've been thinking about this project, and I still think it's awesome, but ... I've been wondering why you picked 1930 as the target date. Wasn't the Hobbit first published in 1937, so your list technically woudn't include the Hobbit? Or do I have my dates mixed up?

You are right: The Hobbit was published in 1937. Tolkien began writing The Hobbit, though, in 1930 (and he finished it in 1932). Thus, The Hobbit was written in the general timeframe I'm considering.

In the first draft of the first chapter, while Gandalf, Bilbo, and the dwarves talk, Gandalf mentions Beren and Luthien. It seems that Tolkien in subsequent drafts of The Hobbit toned down the references to his mythology. I would like to keep those references, thus tying The Hobbit more closely to "The Quenta".

[Finarvyn]

May 28, 2011 8:34:26 GMT -6 geoffrey said:

I am absolutely baffled why the original, 1937 publication of The Hobbit isn't kept in print.

I suspect it's because Tolkien himself changed it.

A couple of examples to ponder:
(1) The Broken Sword, by Poul Anderson.
An early edition is written in 1954, but then the book is revised in the 1970's. From then on, only the 1970's edition seems to be puplished anymore.
(2) The Conan stories, by Robert E Howard.
The early stories are published as Howard wrote them in the 1930's, then the get a DeCamp/Carter revamp in the 1960's. Now, due to fan demand, you can get the original stories again in trade paperback format.

The difference? I believe that it's a combination of fan outrage and the fact that one author revised his own work while the other author got it revised for him.

JRRT changed his own book and I haven't seen much demand from fans to see "the original" in print. Now, if the new Peter Jackson movies were to shoot a script more like the 1937 Hobbit than the 1951 Hobbit, I'd bet that there would be a grass-roots movement started to get the older version back in print.

As it is the two versions are pretty similar, the new one "fits" with LotR better, and there don't appear to be enough Tolkien scholars to demand a reprint. But I'll tell you that if they did one I'd buy a copy!

[Finarvyn]

May 27, 2011 18:05:02 GMT -6 geoffrey said:

In this conception, Men awoke with the first rising of the sun and moon less than 300 years ago. The fall of Gondolin, the story of Beren and Luthien, the tragedy of Turin, etc. all happened in the relatively recent past. The events of The Hobbit take place 14 years after Earendel's pleas lead to the defeat of Morgoth by the Valar and the Elves. Gandalf is a human magic-user. The Arkenstone is a Silmaril. The elf-king in The Hobbit is Thingol, and his realm is Doriath. Mirkwood is Taur-na-Fuin. Gondolin was in the Misty Mountains. Etc. The campaign would start perhaps half a dozen years after the end of The Hobbit. Note that in 1930, The Lord of the Rings had not even been conceived.

By the way, as you put things together, maybe you'll share them with us? This all sounds really interesting and has gotten me to dust off the History of The Hobbit book, but I can't decide if I want to focus on just re-reading the Hobbit.

[geoffrey]

Sure, I'll be glad to share things. I recommend reading The History of the Hobbit. It throws a lot of light on The Hobbit, thus increasing one's enjoyment of it.

[Finarvyn]

I'm reading it now. Good stuff, but all those "moving from transcript to transcript" stuff sometimes makes my eyes glaze over. And all those footnotes.... Yikes!

[geoffrey]

IIRC, you can skim the footnotes if so desired. It's in the short essays following each chapter where the good stuff is found. The most eye-opening essays are the one on the wood elves and their king, and the essay on the Arkenstone. Thingol, Doriath, and a Silmaril!

[Falconer]

This is basically the exact same idea as my The Hobbit Project.

[kesher]

Yagh! I've never heard of The History of the Hobbit books until this moment; I think I'm actually salivating...

[geoffrey]

Jun 2, 2011 14:25:18 GMT -6 Falconer said:

This is basically the exact same idea as my The Hobbit Project.

Kudos to Falconer for pointing me to The History of the Hobbit. And demerits to me for forgetting my debt.

[Zenopus]

May 28, 2011 8:34:26 GMT -6 geoffrey said:

I am absolutely baffled why the original, 1937 publication of The Hobbit isn't kept in print. The year 2012 will be the 75th anniversary of its publication. I think that would be a great time to permanently put it back into print.

Your wish may be answered! See this post on the Tolkien Library website (a good site for upcoming Tolkien Book news):

www.tolkienlibrary.com/press/997-The_Hobbit_Facsimile_Edition.php

"The Hobbit Facsimile First Edition to celebrate its 75th Anniversary"

It's a little unclear whether this will be an exact facsimile (spelling errors and all) but it's likely it will at least have the original chapter 5. This will be coming out in 2012, along with the first Hobbit movie ("An Unexpected Journey"). There's also a book of Tolkien's Hobbit artwork assembled by Hammond and Scull coming out at the end of this year.

[Falconer]

Now that is fantastic news!

[Zenopus]

May 27, 2011 18:05:02 GMT -6 geoffrey said:

I've been toying with using the 1974 D&D rules (with no supplements) for a D&D campaign in Middle-earth as it was circa A. D. 1930. Here would be the "Appendix N" bibliography (all by J. R. R. Tolkien):

The Book of Lost Tales 1 (edited by Christopher Tolkien)

Very interesting idea.

There's a section of BOLT 1 called Gilfanon's Tale that describes the Awakening of Elves and Men in the East. It's fragmentary and was never re-written (so could be considered to stand as of 1930), but full of fascinating details. In this there is a brief mention of Tu the wizard and his dwelling:

"Now the tale tells of a certain fay and names him Tu the wizard, for he was more skilled in magics than any that have ever yet dwelt beyond the land of Valinor; and wondering about the world he found the elves and he drew them to him and taught them many deep things, and he became as a mighty king among, and their tales name him the Lord of Gloaming and all the fairies of his land Hisildi or twilight people. Now the places about Koivie-neni the Waters of Awakening are rugged and full of mighty rocks, and the stream that feeds that water falls therein down a deep cleft ... a pale and slender thread, but the issue of the dark lake was beneath the earth into many endless caverns falling very more deeply into the bosom of the world. There was the dwelling of Tu the wizard, and fathomless hollow are those places, but their doors have long been sealed and none know now the entry."

Sounds like a megadungeon.

A later outline states that:

"Men grew in stature, and gathered knowledge from the Dark Elves, but Tu faded before the Sun and hid in the bottomless caverns. Men dwelt in the centre of the world and spread thence in all directions; an a very great age passed".

So Tu and his caverns may still exist deep in the earth at the time of the Hobbit.

[geoffrey]

Jun 3, 2011 7:21:10 GMT -6 Zenopus said:

May 28, 2011 8:34:26 GMT -6 geoffrey said:

I am absolutely baffled why the original, 1937 publication of The Hobbit isn't kept in print. The year 2012 will be the 75th anniversary of its publication. I think that would be a great time to permanently put it back into print.

Your wish may be answered! See this post on the Tolkien Library website (a good site for upcoming Tolkien Book news):

www.tolkienlibrary.com/press/997-The_Hobbit_Facsimile_Edition.php

"The Hobbit Facsimile First Edition to celebrate its 75th Anniversary"

It's a little unclear whether this will be an exact facsimile (spelling errors and all) but it's likely it will at least have the original chapter 5. This will be coming out in 2012, along with the first Hobbit movie ("An Unexpected Journey"). There's also a book of Tolkien's Hobbit artwork assembled by Hammond and Scull coming out at the end of this year.

I'm going to get that! Thanks for your post. It made my day! ;D

[kesher]

So Tu and his caverns may still exist deep in the earth at the time of the Hobbit.

Oh, that is just too good!

I'm sure "BOLT" is an acronym that I should know; unfortunately I can't figure it out. Help?

[geoffrey]

BOLT = Book of Lost Tales

My modus operandi is thus:

Tolkien's 1930 "Quenta" will be the basic facts of the campaign world. A few years later Tolkien compiled some year-by-year chronologies, and these will also be considered "true". (All of this stuff is published in The Shaping of Middle-earth.)

These sources frequently reference the stories in the Book of Lost Tales, as well as the poetic lays (these latter published in The Lays of Beleriand). Thus, these pre-1930 sources will also be considered true except where contradicted by the sources from 1930. (For example, in the Book of Lost Tales, Beren is an Elf. By 1930 Tolkien had changed him into a Man. In the D&D campaign, Beren was a Man.)

In addition to all that is The Hobbit, including its dropped passages tying it more closely with Tolkien's legendarium.

In short, the Book of Lost Tales is very much a vital source for this campaign idea!

[kesher]

And, geoffrey, as one always asks when these threads pop up: How are you going to handle clerics?

[geoffrey]

Jun 3, 2011 10:14:31 GMT -6 kesher said:

How are you going to handle clerics?

Tolkien's 1930 legendarium was conceived as being told by Elves from the Elven viewpoint. They were written down by a man named Eriol. The Elves were, of course, rather ignorant of Man's mythology.

Tolkien always regarded his mythology as taking place on planet Earth, not on some alien world. A mythical planet Earth, yes, but planet Earth regardless.

Further, for Tolkien the truth regarding planet Earth is consistent with the Catholic faith.

When you read various ancient Catholic documents, you will see that in some of them Adam and Eve were given explicit knowledge of the future coming of Christ.

An early version of The Hobbit included a reference to Christmas.

Put all that together with OD&D's anonymously Christian clerics, and this is how I'm shaking it together: The campaign will assume that Catholicism is true, but that it's basically "a Man thing", whereas the stuff in the "Quenta" is "an Elven thing". [The only difference being that today's Catholics live after Christ's first coming, while those in the campaign will live before Christ's first coming. In fact, they live before Noah's flood.] The first humans to awake were Adam and Eve, and one of their early descendants was Beor, who is the first named human to appear in the mythology.

This is quite far in the background, though. It's basically just the theoretical framework for OD&D's clerics with spells right out of the Bible, and holding vampires at bay with crosses. The theory will serve the game, and not vice versa.

[Zenopus]

Sounds awesome, except you have the cross as holy symbol predating the crucifixion. But I'm sure there's some way around that.

[geoffrey]

Jun 3, 2011 11:38:30 GMT -6 Zenopus said:

Sounds awesome, except you have the cross as holy symbol predating the crucifixion. But I'm sure there's some way around that.

Yeah. In this conception, the clerics of Middle-earth know that the crucifixion will happen in the future.

[Zenopus]

Jun 3, 2011 10:08:37 GMT -6 kesher said:

So Tu and his caverns may still exist deep in the earth at the time of the Hobbit.

Oh, that is just too good!

Thanks. Tu (also called Tuvo) could be a lich, Maia (mad demigod?), or an ancient non-human archmage hanging out deep in The Underworld. In the places where Balrogs hide and the Watcher in the Water came from.

The party could start out in Lake Town, or perhaps Dorwinion down the river on the inland sea (where wine is made). After the Battle of the Five Armies, wood elves and dwarves from the Iron Hills might be welcome in Lake Town (and lawful werebears!). The party could explore the surrounding area (Withered Heath, Mirkwood, Lonely Mountain). Perhaps search for the remains of the Master and his dragon gold. Eventually they could find rumors or a map of the caverns of Tu far to the East. Anything might be put between since Tolkien left it mostly undescribed. They might travel through the Last Desert to the East of East, avoiding wild Were-worms.

[geoffrey]

Awesome.

I forgot to mention that anti-clerics would be worshippers of Thu. In the year 250 after the first rising of the sun, Morgoth was pretty much put on ice, but the text says that Thu was worshipped.

Neutral clerics? Not allowed as per the original printing of the 1974 rules.

[Zenopus]

For anyone that's confused, Thu = Sauron in the 1930 Quenta.

Tu/Tuvo is an earlier conception from the Lost Tales that predates the Sauron character. Tu is more a helpful wizard who teaches the elves.

This website puts it well: tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheHistoryOfMiddleEarth?action=source
"Composite Character: Sauron grew from a combination of three characters from the ''Lost Tales'' - he has the name of the wizard Tu (Tu - Thu - Thaur - Thauron - Sauron), the position of Fankil/Fangli (The Dragon to Melko), and the narrative role of Tevildo Prince of Cats in ''The Tale of Tinuviel''."

[talysman]

Jun 3, 2011 11:40:35 GMT -6 geoffrey said:

Jun 3, 2011 11:38:30 GMT -6 Zenopus said:

Sounds awesome, except you have the cross as holy symbol predating the crucifixion. But I'm sure there's some way around that.

Yeah. In this conception, the clerics of Middle-earth know that the crucifixion will happen in the future.

Also, fortunately, the cross itself predates the crucifixion. It's just that the crucifixion adds certain meanings to the symbol for Catholics and other Christians.