"Play as virtually anything"

[jjarvis]

To me "Play as anything" has limits depending on the campaign. Some campaigns really don't have room for a werewolf, a cyborg ninja, a vulcan samurai, a leprechaun berserker, a terminator, a half-elf/githzerai psychic healer and a french musketeer all in the same party.

It's okay for a DM to require a little taste in player creation.

There's also the issue of verisimilitude. Just how would a goblin wolfrider join the average D&D party when then the typical response to such a thing is to slay it within a round or two? Oh, this goblin wolfrider is friendly...would usually result in capture and killing if not a little torture.

Does the party want a companion that is going to make things difficult at every road toll, ferry crossing and town gate? Is the player ready for this? Does the DM want to spend that time focusing on one character? Or will the difference be down played, ignored and eventually pointless?

[geoffrey]

May 26, 2011 7:18:44 GMT -6 jjarvis said:

Some campaigns really don't have room for a werewolf, a cyborg ninja, a vulcan samurai, a leprechaun berserker, a terminator, a half-elf/githzerai psychic healer and a french musketeer all in the same party.

That sounds like something from one of Jeff Rients's games. ;D

[geoffrey]

May 26, 2011 7:18:44 GMT -6 jjarvis said:

To me "Play as anything" has limits depending on the campaign...

It's okay for a DM to require a little taste in player creation.

I agree. In my Carcosa campaign, there is no such thing anywhere in existence as dwarves, elves, etc. Not only are they absent on the planet of Carcosa, they are also nonexistent elsewhere in the universe, and nonexistent on any alternate plane.

My Fantasy Earth campaign, however, allows for the existence of magical gates leading to other worlds that have dwarves, elves, etc. Thus, even though no demi-humans exist on my Fantasy Earth, I will allow demi-human PCs since they could have wandered in from another world.

[tombowings]

Part of it for me is whether the character will fit in the party dynamics. I wouldn't allow Elf Killer the half-orc assassin into a party of elves even though it is technically allowed by AD&D standards. Similarly, I make any to-be Paladin player check with the group to make sure his righteous tendencies won't ruin the game. If you want to play a cavebear tech-rider, that's fine, so long as your character doesn't turn the game into something less desirable.

[Deleted]

May 26, 2011 7:18:44 GMT -6 jjarvis said:

Some campaigns really don't have room for a werewolf, a cyborg ninja, a vulcan samurai, a leprechaun berserker, a terminator, a half-elf/githzerai psychic healer and a french musketeer all in the same party.

Ever read the "Dungeon" series by Philip Jose Farmer? It's kind of like that. You read it and go "what?"

[Zenopus]

Some quotes from Holmes on this topic:

"Thus, an expedition might include, in addition to the four basic class and races (human, elven, dwarven, hobbitish), a centaur, a lawful werebear, and a Japanese Samurai fighting man" (Holmes Basic rulebook)

“I am personally sorry to see the range of possibilities so restricted. The original rules (the three little brown books) specifically stated that a player could be a dragon if he wanted to be, and if he started at first level … I enjoyed having dragons, samurai, centaurs and witch doctors in the game” and “my own most successful player character was a Dreenoi, an insectoid character borrowed from McEwan’s Starguard” ("Basic D&D Points of View", Dragon #52, August 1981)

"Most game systems rather rigidly specify what kinds of characters players may assume, but the majority of referees are lenient. If a player particularly wants to be an unusual or inhuman character, many referees will let him. It's not unusual to encounter player characters that are werewolves, Vulcans, samurai, centaurs or whatever. Fantasy role playing is, after all, an exercise in imagination" (1981, FRPG book)

[cooper]

For were creatures, I would have the player multi-class like an elf if the player wanted to be something than a 0-level human infected by lycanthropy. He can use the were creature and his main class abilities freely, but must declare before an adventure into which class the XP will go.



Ignoring the creature specific special abilties, a 0-level man who is a were wolf would start play as a "berzerker" and max out at 4th level. A player who was a 3rd level fighter who contracted lycanthropy would turn into a hairy berzerker at first, but after assigning xp to the were-class could increase his transformed powers.

[Deleted]

Interestingly, I played a Balrog in Greyhawk. Yes, THE Greyhawk.

Of course, I started as a 1 HD, very weak Balrog. THAT is the problem, and why Gary later changed his mind; there is virtually constant pressure from the player of an unusual character to power up her or his character, and only a referee of the judgement, skill, and determination of Gary, Rob, and Dave can juggle this without totally unbalancing the game.

The problem is that most people don't want to be "something equal to the other players but different from them," they want to be "beautiful unique special snowflakes." A truly gross example of this was the player who wanted to start at 4th level in a bunch of new players. Upon my explaining that everybody was starting at first level, he said, "Oh, I want them to all be first level, I just want ME to be 4th level."

Horseshirt, says I.

[aldarron]

Very interesting Mike. There's a paragraph in the FFC titled "How to become a Bad Guy" in which Dave says to cut HD by half starting out. But then he also says "for more complex creatures" see the section on Dragons - which does start out young dragons at 1 HD.

So, would you say it was the general practice to start a monster PC at 1 HD?

Would you then progress at 1HD per level until reaching the creatures maximum HD?

For your balrog, did you have the special abilities to immolate on touch and resist magic or was that something that you gained and grew into at hero level and above or some such?

[Deleted]

I got it bit by bit... slowly added magic resistance, easier and easier to immolate, etc.

I no longer remember the details after ... um... 36 years...

[Deleted]

Not that Mike needs me backing him up, he's got some major insider knowledge of the Lake Geneva scene, but I've read Gary saying the same thing. As some of you know, I've been gleaning quotes from him regarding OD&D from his forum threads on EnWorld and DragonsFoot. When asked about why he seemingly reversed his stand on alternate player-character types, he gave the same reason Gronan gave here: too often it was an attempt by a power-gamer to gain an advantage.

Please understand! I am not saying that is why everyone does it, but clearly Gary found it was being used that way too often for his comfort.

[darkling]

Gygax actually wrote a sample dragon PC progression in part II of his "How to set up Your D&D Campaign" article series.

What do you do if a player opts to become a Gold Dragon? Agree, of course. Allow the player to adventure only with strictly Lawful players, and normal men-at-arms would never go near even a good dragon. He would be Very Young, size being determined by a die roll. Advancement in ability would be a function of game time (the dragon would normally take about 4 years to grow to its next level) and accumulated treasure - let us say that for every 100 000 pieces of gold (or its equivalent) the dragon in effect gains an extra year of growth, counting magic items that go into the horde as fairly high in gold value. While the player will be quite advanced at first, those who are playing more usual roles will surpass him rather quickly, and in that way you will not find a G.D. dominating.

Interesting to see that he changed his stripes after a point.

[capheind]

Its odd, I've rarely had players (although its been some time since I've actually played) who demanded to play a very specific version of a Race/Class, and when they did it struck me as a bit creepy that they wanted to essentially play the same exact character (or something similar) in every game, no matter how little sense it made.

In those rare cases I generally let them continue on their way because I knew such a person would not like the generally high fatality rate my games have. Or if they wanted to play a mopey drow I'd explain that if I wanted constant brooding I'd play Vampire the Masquerade.

Maybe I was just lucky but I always remember folks wanting to play something consistent with the pitch I'd given them, and only needing the occasional tweak. As a contemporary example, if someone wanted to play an elf in Carcosa they'd most likely want to play the hybrid of a woman and some faerie themed cosmic horror, who's origins would give me a handy hook when I ran out of ideas one night.

[aldarron]

Aug 13, 2011 22:12:43 GMT -6 capheind said:

.... elf... the hybrid of a woman and some faerie themed cosmic horror.....

Best description I ever read ;D

[aldarron]

Aug 13, 2011 19:25:38 GMT -6 @gronanofsimmerya said:

I got it bit by bit... slowly added magic resistance, easier and easier to immolate, etc.

I no longer remember the details after ... um... 36 years...

Mike, in your recollection, were there any other monster types besides balrogs and orcs being tried in Greyhawk?

[Deleted]

Aug 13, 2011 17:06:37 GMT -6 @gronanofsimmerya said:

Interestingly, I played a Balrog in Greyhawk. Yes, THE Greyhawk.

Wow. You are now my hero!

[jjarvis]

My very first D&D game. I was DMing at 11 and my parents each rolled up a character. My father rolled up a fighting man and my mother wanted to be a pixie. I spent a minute or two flipping through the books and said something like "sure...we'll treat your pixie like a tiny elf that has to rest after flying a few turns and she can't use a weapons larger then a dagger."

I think she was testing me and the limits of the game from the get go.

[jasmith]

Aug 14, 2011 8:19:21 GMT -6 jjarvis said:

My very first D&D game. I was DMing at 11 and my parents each rolled up a character. My father rolled up a fighting man and my mother wanted to be a pixie. I spent a minute or two flipping through the books and said something like "sure...we'll treat your pixie like a tiny elf that has to rest after flying a few turns and she can't use a weapons larger then a dagger."

I think she was testing me and the limits of the game from the get go.

Awesome Mom!

[Deleted]

Aug 14, 2011 6:41:50 GMT -6 aldarron said:

Mike, in your recollection, were there any other monster types besides balrogs and orcs being tried in Greyhawk?

Not in my presence; however, remember there were some 20 players or so, it wasn't "one game group". Other people may have tried things when I wasn't there, but I didn't hear about it.

[Deleted]

May 21, 2011 14:29:20 GMT -6 Stormcrow said:

Men & Magic gives the example of a dragon character. As the character gains experience points, it grows larger and stronger. Depending on how you handle dragons in the campaign, it might hit a level limit ("fully grown") or have a sky-high experience table (based on how many "normal" characters its power is equivalent to). Naturally dragons will have a hard time talking to mysterious old men in taverns and creeping down ten-foot-wide corridors, but there's really no need to hound the player by making the character unpalatable to play beyond the natural limitations.

IMC I currently have a player character that is a dragon. I was already in the process of rewriting dragons specificially for the campaign and this allows me to play test my ideas. He is the 18 yr old son of one of my players but he lives out of town and only gets to play now and then. He is an experienced 3E player and did not seem to have any trouble at all adjusting to OD&D and seemed to have as much fun as everyone else. Since he only gets to travel to Columbus and play about every 3rd game I did allow him to start at 2nd level. If he was local, I would have started him at 1st level. He fully agreed to the proposition "you play it and I will tweak it until I think it is works with the rest of my game world." If something was too much, it will get reduced or if too little it will get changed also. When I finish tweaking it I will post it.

I've got to admit, I have enjoyed what he has done with the character so far.