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Post by tavis on May 16, 2011 11:21:17 GMT -6
I've become very interested in Kickstarter as a way to raise money for projects, and one cool one would be to ensure that priceless pieces of D&D history make it into the public domain. A good starting place might be the original Kalibruhn manuscript. Big advantages are that it's already publicly up for sale, it's got a well-defined price, and it's the original Supplement V. I'm thinking that part of this initial Kickstarter effort might be to cover the costs of creating a nonprofit to administer and pursue things like this. Suggestions for what that should be named are welcome! |
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Post by kesher on May 16, 2011 12:07:40 GMT -6
Do you have a link for Kickstarter? ...I don't know why I even bother asking for links!  Googled it, and I assume it's this, right: KickstarterLooks pretty cool, though isn't Public Domain a legally defined copyright term? I mean, obviously if someone bought the Kalibruhn manuscript, they could do whatever they want with it (including making it public domain), but this seems like an exception to the rule. Admittedly, maybe I just need to read farther in to the Kickstarter site... |
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Post by tavis on May 16, 2011 12:14:41 GMT -6
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Post by kesher on May 16, 2011 12:28:14 GMT -6
Wow. You're right---this has some great potential!
So, can you say some more about how see this structured for Kickstarter?
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Post by tavis on May 16, 2011 12:58:24 GMT -6
I went to a panel about Kickstarter at PAX East, where their community manager and a bunch of folks who've used to do gaming projects (including Joshua Newman's tabletop RPG Human Contact) spoke.
Basically it's run on trust: donors kick in because they trust you'll do what you say. Having faces you know and a clearly defined objective are important. Getting community support beforehand helps with the first: we know each other to be reasonably Lawful. This particular project helps with the second: there's not too many ways it could go wrong. Yes, we could use this money to buy it from Noble Knight and then disappear, but there's little reason to do so.
Points to think about further:
- You're right that public domain isn't the word I want here. The goal is to make it publicly available to fans, not to deny that Rob is its author and maintains copyright.
- We'd need Rob's permission to publish its contents (even in a free version); buying Steven King's original MS to Carrie doesn't give you the right to put it out as a paperback. Securing the MS would help ensure that such publication would be possible, but wouldn't be the whole story.
- We'd need to decide what to do with the original MS - the actual pieces of paper that have value to collectors, which'll be essentially left over after we do the operations that I care about: scanning and digitizing, capturing the text, etc., etc. One option would be to make them a donor reward: the highest bidder gets the thing itself.
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Post by howandwhy99 on May 16, 2011 13:14:48 GMT -6
$1900 and the author flies out to you and runs the game. This is a good idea. First up is identifying content that is available for purchase. Also, I take it there is something in copyright law about making material public domain. That would need to be clarified. The original author(s) should be contacted too about the intention. It is their work even if no longer their property legally. /edit: you've already covered some of this I see. |
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Post by aldarron on May 16, 2011 13:35:32 GMT -6
- We'd need to decide what to do with the original MS - the actual pieces of paper that have value to collectors, which'll be essentially left over after we do the operations that I care about: scanning and digitizing, capturing the text, etc., etc. One option would be to make them a donor reward: the highest bidder gets the thing itself. That's the easy part. Any original old school gaming materials ought to be donated to the Aethervox Gamers Collection. Sure the focus there has been EPT, but that is bound to be expanded, and they are already an up and running gaming history preservation group. chirinesworkbench.blogspot.com/p/aethervox-gamers-short-history.htmlAnywho, I'm aware of, and interested in Kickstarter as a way of funding documentaries and other projects, but not sure how you mean to have it apply to gaming mss. What's the nuts and bolts? I mean if say a dozen folks chipped in and bought the Domesday newsletters, or a first print 3lbb, how would a pdf be made available? Presumably, those who chip in could certainly get a pdf but all others distributed would still be illegal right? Does kickstarter offer some legal avenue that wouldn't be available if just a bunch of us on the forum chipped in and did the same thing? |
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Post by tavis on May 16, 2011 13:53:31 GMT -6
Good call on Aethervox. On the same principle of using already-existing gaming history preservation groups, PlaGMaDA could be a home for making the digitized originals available. No, Kickstarter would just function here as a fundraising tool, no different than if we chipped in to buy the Domesday newsletters. Thinking about those is a good way of approaching the publication issue, which becomes tricky when it's not just a dozen of us (in which case sharing copies of the original might be considered personal use). The copyright on the Domesday newsletters is tangled, no? Maybe the funds would be raised not just to purchase the original, but also to obtain legal representation guiding how they could be ethically curated & made readable by a wide audience in the digital age? |
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Post by bluskreem on May 16, 2011 20:56:30 GMT -6
I think it a perfect use for Kickstarter, and i can think of n better home for Kalibruhn then the Aethervox Collection. Have you contacted them? I really hope this project gets off the ground. I am fully behind it.
The Piazza has had discussions about trying to acquire and preserve similar works in the past.
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Post by Deleted on May 16, 2011 21:09:46 GMT -6
I don't have a good head for business, my schtick is is taking care of babies born 3 months too soon, so I may not be the best reference.
That being said ... Kalibruhn seems like it is just begging to be bought, adapted for print, and released. You could ask a premium (though not exorbitant, is is to be hoped) price for the product and most of us would be happy to pay it.
Truly, this is a unique opportunity. Keep us posted.
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Post by jmccann on May 16, 2011 22:42:17 GMT -6
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Post by waysoftheearth on May 17, 2011 0:17:24 GMT -6
buying Steven King's original MS to Carrie doesn't give you the right to put it out as a paperback. Forgive my ignorance, but I believe that is because the rights to publish Carrie were purchased by the publisher. If the rights to publish Kalibruhn were never purchased, then they (presumably) are still the property of the author, and a sale of such rights might still (presumably) be arranged. But that is an entirely different enterprise to preserving the original manuscripts for historical purposes. |
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Post by harami2000 on May 17, 2011 1:27:14 GMT -6
Starting from scratch yet again rather than attempting to encompass other existing archives? A good starting place might be the original Kalibruhn manuscript. Big advantages are that it's already publicly up for sale, it's got a well-defined price, and it's the original Supplement V. *g* As I might've mentioned a dozen times, I have the original Supplement V typescript, having won the auction back then. Paul Stormberg did a deal on the sly to the runner up for the original ms. Ownership does not permit release into the public domain, of course - not least when Black Blade still have a publication deal with Rob which may encompass digital copies of such material - but it does permit public archiving/creation of a research resource. I'm thinking that part of this initial Kickstarter effort might be to cover the costs of creating a nonprofit to administer and pursue things like this. Suggestions for what that should be named are welcome! Nice idea: it would be good to see the past negativity and lack of interest from the community overcome somehow, beyond the scope of the below; Well, pre-EPT as well. Major fail recently with regards to any general expansion when it came to the unearthing of Dave Arneson's archive, though, between community inactivity - yet again - and selfishness/disinterest on the part of the seller. (*shrugs*) |
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Post by tavis on May 17, 2011 4:49:16 GMT -6
Starting from scratch yet again rather than attempting to encompass other existing archives? No, just thinking out loud and learning as I go. What are the existing archives (other than Aethervox)? What was the story with the Arneson archive you mentioned? Are there other preservation opportunities out there that are less likely to be covered by others, as Black Blade might with this one? |
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Post by calithena on May 17, 2011 7:44:24 GMT -6
Dave and I had actually talked a little bit about getting some of his original materials into Fight On! when we interviewed him in issue #2, but he was already pretty sick at that point and nothing ever came of it. I am trying to read between the lines here - what happened to the literary estate of Mr. Arneson? Is it gone? Or who has it? I also remember him saying something about how he and Full Sail were trying to digitize a lot of the material when I talked to him.
Hopefully some of this stuff will get out there eventually.
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Post by harami2000 on May 17, 2011 8:01:21 GMT -6
> No, just thinking out loud and learning as I go. Cool; thanks! Needing more of that, IMHO. > What are the existing archives (other than Aethervox)? Many people seem to believe that incorporation and a fancy name indicates "professionalism" and knowledge within a given field - that certainly is not always the case. OK, it /is/ with Aethervox... not so much with the National Museum of Play that enchanted James M. for some reason. There are a good number of private individuals out there with extensive archives but given the badmouthing they often get, it's not surprising they often keep a low profile (presuming they're not already doing so for hoarding or history (re)writing reasons!  ) > What was the story with the Arneson archive you mentioned? => www.acaeum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=11110I tried to get them in touch with Aethervox and other possibilities/community efforts for collective purchase/archiving in as public a manner as possible but they weren't interested: presumably $$$ was their primary motivation. I've been told, but have been unable to verify, that everything was sold off as a single lot - better than being split up at random, even if that (unfortunately) disappears from sight. > Are there other preservation opportunities out there that are less likely to be covered by others, as Black Blade might with this one? Good question. There are opportunities all the time given the breadth of the hobby but people need to stick their neck out and do something about those. Sadly there's generally very little interest in anything much beyond the few big/obvious names - witness, for example, Bill Owen's disposal of his share of the Judges Guild archive including campaign material from 1974 onwards, all the original JG founding docs., internal material, first DM's screen *jk*, etc. Keep on with that interest, please. |
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Post by harami2000 on May 17, 2011 8:05:43 GMT -6
I am trying to read between the lines here - what happened to the literary estate of Mr. Arneson? Is it gone? Or who has it? I also remember him saying something about how he and Full Sail were trying to digitize a lot of the material when I talked to him. Hopefully some of this stuff will get out there eventually. Aside from the previous reply, he also got in touch with a few people on the Acaeum and elsewhere to investigate how it might be possible to pass on his work/gaming effects but - as you indicate - illness overtook events before anything was done, afaik. *No-one* knew about the storage locker, unfortunately (and almost unbelievably, to be honest... :/) |
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Post by aldarron on May 17, 2011 9:09:44 GMT -6
I am trying to read between the lines here - what happened to the literary estate of Mr. Arneson? Is it gone? Or who has it? I also remember him saying something about how he and Full Sail were trying to digitize a lot of the material when I talked to him. Hopefully some of this stuff will get out there eventually. Aside from the previous reply, he also got in touch with a few people on the Acaeum and elsewhere to investigate how it might be possible to pass on his work/gaming effects but - as you indicate - illness overtook events before anything was done, afaik. *No-one* knew about the storage locker, unfortunately (and almost unbelievably, to be honest... :/) Frankly, the whole story seemed a little dubious, and of questionable legality. In any case, I highly doubt there was much of great significance being kept there. |
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Post by harami2000 on May 17, 2011 13:14:11 GMT -6
Frankly, the whole story seemed a little dubious, and of questionable legality. Selling the contents of unclaimed storage units is big business in the US; legal and above board in most if not all states, I thought? Agreed, though, that it was unexpected to see someone claiming such a "find". In any case, I highly doubt there was much of great significance being kept there. That would really need someone from Dave's group or familiar with the historical context of his work to delve deeply. If the original Tékumel correspondence mss. can appear out of the blue from less promising, but similar circumstances, I'd be reluctant to downplay the potential for the presence of "significant" material. |
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Post by aldarron on May 17, 2011 15:41:38 GMT -6
Frankly, the whole story seemed a little dubious, and of questionable legality. Selling the contents of unclaimed storage units is big business in the US; legal and above board in most if not all states, I thought? Agreed, though, that it was unexpected to see someone claiming such a "find". Right, the doubts I had here are that they supposed to attempt to contact owners or heirs and it surely would not have been difficult to do so in this case. Although I suppose it is concievable the storage people might have had no idea who Dave Arneson was. Even so, apparently a brief perusal of the items would have made it clear. It also doesn't seem too likely that the Arneson family would have been unaware of such a storage unit or let it go to auction if it was important and they did know. In any case, I highly doubt there was much of great significance being kept there. That would really need someone from Dave's group or familiar with the historical context of his work to delve deeply. If the original Tékumel correspondence mss. can appear out of the blue from less promising, but similar circumstances, I'd be reluctant to downplay the potential for the presence of "significant" material. Yeah, could be anything, but I'm thinking its more likely to be "overflow" - published stuff, copies of this and that. |
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Post by Deleted on May 21, 2011 18:49:40 GMT -6
If I could jump in here...
Speaking as the Curator for the Aethervox Gamers, I appreciate all of your comments about our group and what we're trying to do. I should make a few things more clear, though.
We became a Minnesota 317a non-profit corporation primarily for fiscal reasons; it's a lot easier to get insurance, for example. The collections currently occupy over 800 square feet of space, and we're actively looking for a larger space where we can have better organized and better protected storage for the collections; it's much easier to do that as a formal organization. We've also been asked if we'll accept donations, both of archival materials and of cash, and that's also a lot easier to do as an organization.
And, it has to be said, our 'first generation' of gamers won't be around forever; we have a second and a third generation of gamers in the group, and having the corporate structure makes it a lot easier for the people who will follow ancients like me to take over after I'm gone.
As to 'professionalism', we're trying to do the best we can, and learn as fast as we can from museum and archival staffs about what we need to be doing and how we need to do it. We're working as fast as we can to catalog and index the collections, and a second staffer is being brought on board to help our librarian with additional computers and scanners being added to the office. I expect we'll add more people in the future, as we start digitizing the entire collection for the planned 'virtual museum'. I'll be happy to discuss this further, if people would like to e-mail me.
Regarding the contents of a Dave Arneson storage locker in Rochester being auctioned off, I can believe it. One of Dave's companies, Four-D Interactive, is still in business there, and I would not be at all surprised if Dave had stuff stored there. I can also believe that Malia, Dave's daughter, may very well not have known about such a storage unit; things were pretty confused at the time, and it could very well have slipped into the cracks. I'm sorry that I didn't hear about it; I would have driven the 90 minutes and helped the purchaser confirm what he'd bought, and helped make it available to the wider gaming community.
And yes, our primary focus is on Prof. Barker's Tekumel, but we're always interested in the context in which it was created; from the first items dating from the 1940's and 1950's to the present, the setting that the creative process took place in is always of interest. I'm still learning new things about the events and times that I've been involved with in our shared hobby, and it's always fascinating.
My one request, when something like this topic come up, is please feel free to contact me; I don't always see threads on these boards due to my work schedule and my commitments to the Aethervoxes, so give me a shout when you think we might be interested.
Thanks! - chirine
[e-mail: chirine @ aethervox.net ]
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Post by grodog on May 27, 2011 20:24:08 GMT -6
re: Arneson storage unit: from what I understand, Malia was attempted to be contacted multiple times, and never responded, and the contents were eventually sold, legally, by the storage unit. The buyer was apparently a sheriff or police officer, and he then sold the contents to the current owner. re: the Kalibruhn ms: Rob's intention is to publish the whole of his corpus of D&D manuscripts, at some point. No timeline in place with Black Blade at present, though. And thanks, David, for keeping an eye out for us  |
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Post by gloriousbattle on May 28, 2011 9:09:16 GMT -6
Everything, at least in the US, ends up in the public domain eventually. Intellectual property , whether copyright or patent, is not perpetual, despite so many people in this business trying to pretend that it is.
IP protections were always meant to be limited, and for a very good reason.
If, for example, you invented the gasoline pill (costs a penny to make, turns a gallon of water into a gallon of gasoline), we want to give you some protection for its profit potential. The theory is that people will not waste their time inventing things if big investors can just start producing them and paying the inventor nothing.
OTOH, we want these things to pass into the public domain eventually, so that others can profit, and build on the earlier idea.
Obviously, good an evil here are subjective, and largely defined by who's ox is being gored. IP owners want unlimited protection, industries want no protection (at least for other people's IP). Niether is right, and the see-saw battle thus continues.
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