attack/defense

[LouGoncey]

On pg 5 of Monsters & Treasures:
"Attack/Defense capabilities versus normal men are simply a matter of allowing one roll as a man-type for every hit die, with any bonuses being given to only one of the attacks, i.e. a Troll would attack six times, once with a +3 added to the die roll."

What does this mean, exactly?

[Mushgnome]

I believe it is a reference to the Chainmail system, for those who use that ruleset.

A troll attacks as "6 men" in Chainmail.

[Deleted]

A troll, with 6+3 hit dice, gets six attacks if fighting "man-types" (humans, demi-humans, and humanoids with 1 hit dice or less), one at +3 because it has six hit dice plus 3.

[Stormcrow]

More specifically, it counts as 6 man-types when fighting on the mass combat chart (trolls should probably never use the man-to-man chart). Trolls attack and defend as Heavy Foot.

[kesher]

Not forgetting that characters would then attack the same way, i.e., a 6th level Fighting Man would get six attacks against monsters of 1hd or less.

[cooper]

Not necessarily of 1hd or less. It is perfectly reasonable for a troll to attack a hero with 6d6+3 attacks with each 6 that comes up dealing 1d6 dmg and the hero to return with 4d6/6. Or to do 1 attack at a time using the FCT or 1 attack at a time using a Thac0 or most cumbersomely 6 and 4 attacks respectively on the man to man table at the referees whim.

hero average damage:
1:1 mass combat4d6/6 (0.16x3.5)x4 =2.24 damage
FCT 2d6 9+ hits (0.32x3.5)=1.12 damage
Thac0 17 vs. AC5 (0.45x3.5)=1.57 damage

[Mushgnome]

I agree with Cooper. Now you might say, "wow, that makes trolls really dangerous!" but consider that in "vanilla" Chainmail, the troll kills the hero (4th level fighting man) in a single blow by rolling 9+ on 2d6 (10 in 36 or 28% probability).

[LouGoncey]

so it's chainmail thing then. I've only used the alternate combat system.

[Deleted]

I tried the "Chainmail" system a few times but always got confused. Seems like alot of dice to roll.

[LouGoncey]

Thanks alot for the answers everybody -- I'm going through the LBBs with a 'fine tooth' comb. This passageway sticks out as something that could be of several different meanings.

[aldarron]

Mar 31, 2011 12:52:44 GMT -6 LouGoncey said:

so it's chainmail thing then. I've only used the alternate combat system.

Not precisely, no. Its an Arneson thing. As best as we have been able to determine the use of "atack/defense capability" terminology was intended for broad application regardless of what combat system you were using, be it CHAINMAIL, the d20 alternate, or something else. In other words, they encompass whatever "capabilities" the referee has assigned. For defense, that could include saving throws, armor class, hit points, and special situational multipliers - like reacting to the recognition of a poisoned blade in SuppII.

compare to this thread:

odd74.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=chainmail&action=display&thread=3080

and especially my comments here:

dragonsfoot.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=40440

but most recently

Jul 29, 2010 13:23:15 GMT -6 aldarron said:

Defining values and defense ala Arneson
In Supplement II, Temple of the Frog we have a puzzling statement, much discussed:

"There are 8 frogmen with double strength and hit point values, each of these also having +2 on saving throws and defensive capabilities. There are 5 frogmen with triple values and +3 on saving throws and defense, and 2 frogmen with quadruple capabilities and +4 to saving throws and defense! " [Blackmoor, p. 45]

Since much of this language is unusual for D&D but appears in varying degrees of ambiguity in works to which Arneson was either the author or coauthor, its useful to look through the references and clarify the meaning if possible.

“values” – when used alone, this term means both attack values (Strength – Hit dice or Fighting Capablility) and defense “values” – hit points.

Double value means multiply Hit Points and Hit Dice by two. Following the frogmen example, it may, at the referee’s discretion, also be taken to mean to add 2 to AC and saving throws. Likewise with Quadruple (+4 to AC/saving throws and HP/HD times 4) etc.

Defensive Capabilities – this term refers to Armor class and perhaps more, including saving throws.

“defense” – When written by itself, defense refers to Armor Class. Most often appears as “saving throws and defence”

Bonuses to armor class are treated exactly as a magical bonus, meaning they remove damage dice from the opponent as in this quote from Men and Magic:” Protection: A ring which serves as +1 armor would, giving this bonus to defensive capabilities and to saving throws.”

There's afew other intriguing posts there from Snori and Mathew too.