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Post by DungeonDevil on Mar 4, 2011 1:18:52 GMT -6
I was doodling and created a rough flow-chart showing what I think might have been the development of OD&D from CM, and the evolution of Basic and AD&D from OD&D, but what were the inspirations (rules-wise) for CM itself?
It is not impossible that it arose whole-cloth ex nihilo, but it is more likely that EGG and Perrin had experience with prior rulesets, but what could these have been?
What Ancients (or more relevantly), what Mediaeval Period wargaming rules existed in the post WWII years which might have inspired them?
I am familiar with Morschauser's How to Play War Games in Miniature (1962), and of course H.G. Wells' Little Wars, and the ever-so-elusive Sham-Battle, but that's about it. (I will add that I think that, due to its extreme obscurity, the original von Reisswitz Anleitung, a.k.a. Kriegs-Spiel, was not known to EGG and party.)
What design examples would they have access to in the mid- to late-1960's?
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Post by Finarvyn on Mar 4, 2011 5:41:50 GMT -6
I was thinking for some reason that Gary had some pre-Chainmail version printed in THE DOMESDAY BOOK newsletter for the Castles & Crusades Society. A trip to the acaeum would probably confirm/deny my memory on this because I think they have a TOC for most issues.
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Post by DungeonDevil on Mar 4, 2011 5:54:00 GMT -6
What are the odds that whoever has a copy of that will ever share with the community those contents? The only other possible influence that I can think of off the top o' me head would be Tony Bath's Hyboria campaign, or perhaps Jack Scruby (I don't know if he was into any particular period, though). I lost my logon info for the Acaeum and they won't let me do a search. *grrr* Stoopid, stoopid, stoopid.
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Post by Finarvyn on Mar 4, 2011 7:03:33 GMT -6
It's not in the forums, but the regular "research" section. acaeum.com/library/domesday.htmlI noticed some miniatures rules listed in issue #5 (1970) by Gygax/Perrin.
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Post by aldarron on Mar 4, 2011 8:03:12 GMT -6
The Domesday rules to CHAINMAIL to D&D discussed by us somewhat here: odd74.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=blackmoor&action=display&thread=4217Siege of Bodenburg to Perrens rules to CHAINMAIL summed in this wikipedia article here: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chainmail_(game)"The use of 40 mm Elastolin miniatures for medieval wargaming was promoted by Siege of Bodenburg[3] which appeared in Strategy & Tactics magazine in 1967. This motivated Jeff Perren to develop a few pages of his own rules for these miniatures. He introduced the rules to Gary Gygax and the LGTSA. Gygax expanded the rules to 16 pages[4] and published them in the newsletter of the Castle & Crusade Society."
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Post by ckutalik on Mar 4, 2011 9:44:07 GMT -6
What are the odds that whoever has a copy of that will ever share with the community those contents? The only other possible influence that I can think of off the top o' me head would be Tony Bath's Hyboria campaign, or perhaps Jack Scruby (I don't know if he was into any particular period, though). Tony Bath's Peltast and Pila rules were in fairly widespread use in the 60s. Saving throws for armor is a mechanism used in them, a possible influence. I did a review of the re-issue of Bath's rules on my blog here hillcantons.blogspot.com/2011/01/tony-baths-ancient-wargaming-review.htmlYou can also check out the complete rules for Siege of Bodenburg here: www.thortrains.net/armymen/bodebok1.html
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Post by aldarron on Mar 4, 2011 10:49:11 GMT -6
What are the odds that whoever has a copy of that will ever share with the community those contents? The only other possible influence that I can think of off the top o' me head would be Tony Bath's Hyboria campaign, or perhaps Jack Scruby (I don't know if he was into any particular period, though). Tony Bath's Peltast and Pila rules were in fairly widespread use in the 60s. Saving throws for armor is a mechanism used in them, a possible influence. I don't know, but its been mentioned that one of the main reason Perren created his rules in the first place was because of the lack of available medieval rules. I suspect Baths rules might have been rare on this side of the pond in the late '60's. Someone should ask Mr. Perren about that. Rob Kuntz would likely know too. Saving throws seem to be a taken for granted practice in the '60's era games, maybe earlier.
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Post by ckutalik on Mar 4, 2011 11:04:51 GMT -6
I have no idea myself where and when saving throws initiated. The first iteration of Bath's rules came as early as 1956.
Joe Morschauser--who was likely influenced by Bath's rules and was on this side of the pond--published a rule set in 1967 that had saving throws too.
But yeah probably best to ask those who were there.
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Post by harami2000 on Mar 4, 2011 11:07:35 GMT -6
"The use of 40 mm Elastolin miniatures for medieval wargaming was promoted by Siege of Bodenburg[3] which appeared in Strategy & Tactics magazine in 1967. This motivated Jeff Perren to develop a few pages of his own rules for these miniatures...." Note the emphasis - Perren's rules were created for the minis: there is no unbroken chain of rules from Siege of Bodenburg to "Chainmail" since the former was, typically for the US at the time, much closer to being a board game. Despite Scruby's efforts in the late 50s, the largest wargaming conventions in the US were barely able to attract 100 participants by the late 60s whereas several hundred was relatively common in the UK. That wargaming with minis had difficulty taking root in the US is highlighted by Wesely having to resort to the obscure (even by US standards), complex ruleset in Strategos (1880) rather than simply picking up a copy of Featherstone's War Games (1962) off the shelves - that book having sold many thousands of copies in the UK; included within, of course, were the current iteration of Tony Bath's Ancient Wargaming Rules. On the other hand, the SCA was somewhat in advance of such /popular/ equivalents in the UK...
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Post by DungeonDevil on Mar 4, 2011 16:42:41 GMT -6
It's probably going to be the case that CM, like the concept of RPG, comes not from a linear progression (or straightforward geneology) but likely a pool of contemporaneous ideas which were slowly merged to gel into the hobby (together with inspiration). I've got the rules for Siege of Bodenburg, but I just don't know if that was a significant contributor. IIRC, movement was by square and, as others have opined, I think this was more board-wargame, than mainstream minis wargaming (movement by ruler, not square or by hex). The basic idea was that the Defenders had to hold the Attackers and Huns at bay for 15 turns (hoping to get a delivery of supplies escorted by Lansquenets (=Landsknechte), while the attackers tried to take the castle in that time. I'll soon reread the rules and think over it. BTW, what was the original copyright for Bath's ancient's rules? John Curry has reprinted them, but I don't remember if the orig. date is mentioned in my reprint edition. I'll have to venture into the dustier corners of my gaming bookshelf. Tasty food for thought!
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Post by harami2000 on Mar 4, 2011 18:00:51 GMT -6
Have fun!
By "RPG" and "hobby" you mean "D&D", I presume? Others got there under their own power (Curtis, Colwill and Blake being the most obvious) but after the term "RPG" was applied to "games like D&D" (even though TSR themselves at first included Diplomacy as a "RPG"), other approaches to "roleplaying" tended to be shouldered out of the way.
The 1962 iteration of Tony Bath's rules in Don Featherstone's War Games are also still in print, being somewhat different to the original (BMSS Bulletin 1956 #6-8) since Tony seemed to be focusing more to the bigger picture in that intermediate period before the individuality started to emerge once again.
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Post by thorswulf on Mar 4, 2011 20:01:58 GMT -6
I would hazard a guess that there may have been more correspondence than you guess. Featherstone and Morschauser played correspondence games across the pond. Scruby was well known in Britain as well. Don't forget Avalon Hill's board games had a huge influence on many early wargamers too. I have several early issues of Wargamer's Digest with articles from Gygax and Arneson as post or contemporary chainmail stuff. Z&M publishing also put out several rules at the time as well. It is possible that skirmish games in general may have influenced the forminng of RPGs.
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Post by aldarron on Mar 4, 2011 21:21:06 GMT -6
I've got the rules for Siege of Bodenburg, but I just don't know if that was a significant contributor. My understanding of it is that Perren wasn't attempting to adapt the bodenburg rules to minis, but rather the game inspired him to want to use medeival minis in his battles. So, there should, theoretically be a lot of Napoleonics etc. influence. Interesting project....
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Post by DungeonDevil on Apr 12, 2011 2:51:40 GMT -6
re: Morschauser and Chainmail Can Chainmail's origins be seen in Morschauser's How to Play Wargames in Miniature (1962)? It looks like a strong candidate. N.B.: These are just quick, rough-and-tumble notes. I'll be examining Morschauser's Basic Rules (p. 44 ff.) and "Shock Period Rules" (p. 54 ff.) which pertain to the period employed with CM. MOVEMENT* CM: movement in multiples of 3 (6, 9, 12, 18, 24). * Mor: the same. (9, 12, 15, 18) * Cav. movement in Mor. defined as 18" (the same as MH in CM) * INF move: 12" (no road); 18" (road), but only if WHOLE MOVE IS ON ROAD! TROOP TYPES* CM: 6, namely: LF, HF, AF; LH, MH, HH. * Mor: not quite the same, but almost. • Lt. Inf. (little armour, sword, spear, axe) • Hvy. Inf. (heavier armour and/or arms) • Lt. Missile Inf. (bow, crossbow, sling, javelin, etc.) • Hvy. Cav. • Lt. Cav. Mor. lacks an equivalent to CM's MH category. FIRE RULES (p. 59) vs. Lt. troops.....4 or 6 on d6 [ literally the text says "A 4 or a 6 on the die is a hit", and NOT 4 through 6. Odd! If its 33.33% why not just say 5 or 6??? Perhaps this was a typo...] vs. Hvy. troops....6 on d6 No overhead shooting (!) MELEE (and RANGE)* CM: up to 3" (p. 15, 16, 25; 36 [ under Water Elementals]) * Mor: the same. * "A Basic Unit may melee an enemy Unit or Units in range (within three inches) only at the beginning or end of the Basic Unit's move, not in the middle" (p. 50) "Melee Power Number" (p. 46) MP must be rolled or less. Attacker with 2 dice of 2 colours Must roll MP or less. * RESULTS: • both roll # or less = both units removed. • one does not roll # or less = casualty & removed. • both do not roll # or less= draw. Roll again! * Front MP vs. Rear MP (if attacked in flank or rear) * Attack uphill: -1 MP SPLIT-FIRE MOVESCM: allowed for horse troops. (p. 12) Mor: not allowed. * Rivers (Mor. p. 52) * enter river and stop in turn A. Move out in turn B. * If in river when entering melee: -1 MP. * Basic Units (Mor. p. 32 ff) =basing, elements 54mm figs....3" x 3" 30mm figs...2" x 2" [as recommended for TRICOLOR!] 20mm figs....1" x 1" 25mm figs....1.5" ? * Figs/Tray (Mor. p. 35) INF...4 CAV...2 ARTY...2, 1 gun Melee Power TableLt. Inf: move 12", front MP 3, flank/rear MP 1, missile range nil. Lt. Missile Inf.: move 12", front MP 2, flank/rear MP 1, missile range 18". Hvy Inf: move 9", front MP 4, flank/rear MP 2, missile range nil. Hvy Cav: move 15", front MP 5, flank/rear MP 3, missile range nil. Lt. Cav: move 18", front MP 4, flank/rear MP 2, missile range nil. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ It's not much to go on, as the rules in Mor. for the Ancients/Mediaeval (i.e. pre-gunpowder eras) are pretty bare-bones, but it is intriguing. More to come...
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Post by aldarron on Apr 12, 2011 9:50:20 GMT -6
Nice! Have an exalt!
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Post by DungeonDevil on Apr 12, 2011 14:28:47 GMT -6
Thank you very much! That'll be my first! More crunchy goodness added to above post on Morschauser!
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Post by kesher on May 11, 2011 12:36:43 GMT -6
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Post by aldarron on May 11, 2011 16:22:02 GMT -6
T. Shiels is the guy with the Toysoldiers website who made some interesting comments on CHAINMAIL and came up with the Castle Cracker rules.
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Post by DungeonDevil on May 12, 2011 3:16:53 GMT -6
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Post by chicagowiz on May 12, 2011 8:52:14 GMT -6
T. Shiels is the guy with the Toysoldiers website who made some interesting comments on CHAINMAIL and came up with the Castle Cracker rules. Could you share those? (both the quote and the rules? Castle Cracker? LOL!)
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Post by DungeonDevil on May 17, 2011 4:38:57 GMT -6
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Post by chicagowiz on May 17, 2011 14:02:00 GMT -6
Neat stuff!
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Post by foxroe on May 17, 2011 20:18:57 GMT -6
I have to say, thanks guys! Great thread. I've "wish-listed" all of Featherstone's stuff on Amazon in hopes of eventually accumulating them. And an FYI for those who haven't already figured it out, his books are available through Lulu as well.
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Post by DungeonDevil on May 18, 2011 11:43:41 GMT -6
I have to say, thanks guys! Great thread. I've "wish-listed" all of Featherstone's stuff on Amazon in hopes of eventually accumulating them. And an FYI for those who haven't already figured it out, his books are available through Lulu as well. If you're referring to the John Curry reprints, be advised that the editing and layout of his reprints is between intermittently shoddy and outright negligent. (I've got a 1/2-dozen of Curry's reprints, and I've seen these issues throughout all of them). He clearly is sloppy with editing. I've got Featherstone's Solo Wargaming, Advanced Wargaming and Wargaming Campaigns, all with some great Old School ideas about how to make the hobby your own, and, IMHO, some of the concepts could equally well be used, with some modification, to running a fantasy-based campaign. I also just found out that the aforementioned Morschauser text has been allegedly reprinted too, if you want to take a look at that.
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Post by foxroe on May 18, 2011 19:49:43 GMT -6
Thanks, DD. That's good to know.
Are the re-edits really that bad? I mean, from the perspective of someone who has only ever dealt with Chainmail, Warhammer-ish, and Squad Leader things, are they really that bad?
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Post by DungeonDevil on May 20, 2011 8:47:48 GMT -6
If you want to look at these earlier wargaming books in reprint and don't want to have to shell out the big bucks for original editions, they're good, but, as Curry OCRs the texts and doesn't do any editing to weed out the OCR-generated goofs (confusion of o, e, c; i and l and 1; full-stops where there should be commas, cl instead of d, or vice versa, etc.), be prepared for oddities like that. On Lulu they average between 22 to 25 USD, so they're not exactly cheap. Lulu is also experiencing trouble with printing and binding: I just got a defective copy of a Featherstone book last week and had to request a replacement.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 3, 2011 3:50:31 GMT -6
Going back to the OP's topic a little bit... This post on Dragonsfoot suggests that the Siege of Bodenburg, played by Gygax and Co. at GenCon I was responsible for prompting them to devote efforts toward Medieval wargaming and found the Castle & Crusade Society. Gygax participates in that thread and seems to more or less confirm the information (though with Kuntz dropping by to challenge some of Gygax's recollections about some other points one might say the information could be less than 100% certain). It's mentioned that Gygax met Kuntz during a game of Afrika Korps shortly after Gygax had played SoB. QUESTION : Is there any other information regarding what wargames (besides Siege of Bodenburg and Afrika Korps) Gygax (and/or Perren) played before, say, 1971? Also, regarding the Siege of Bodenburg: my impression is that rather than directly influencing the *rules* of Chainmail, the game's primary contribution was as the original source of inspiration for wargaming with Medieval miniatures in that group (suggested earlier in this tread)...which led to Perren writing up his own rules for the group's use that eventually became the foundation for Chainmail. If that is the case, we need more information regarding what other games Gygax and Perren were playing before and during that period (hence my question above) to get a better picture concerning where the rules themselves evolved from.
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Post by aldarron on Jun 3, 2011 10:19:47 GMT -6
QUESTION : Is there any other information regarding what wargames (besides Siege of Bodenburg and Afrika Korps) Gygax (and/or Perren) played before, say, 1971? ... we need more information regarding what other games Gygax and Perren were playing before and during that period (hence my question above) to get a better picture concerning where the rules themselves evolved from. Short answer - all of them. There were the avalon hill games, wargames from small publishers, local rulesets. Napololeonics, Diplomacy, Fletcher Pratt's naval games; Michael Korns, Modern war in miniature. There were a lot of wargames that came out in the 50's and 60's and they played most of them, or were at least familiar with the rules. Gygax has mentioned all of those. Perren owned a game store at the time IIRC.
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Post by DungeonDevil on Jun 11, 2011 0:19:16 GMT -6
The rules for Bodenburg that I have feature Landsknechts and a cannon in the castle, which suggest a Renaissance timeframe (unless my History skillz are off-kilter), and not necessarily Mediaeval. Thoughts?
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Post by harami2000 on Jul 17, 2011 7:05:12 GMT -6
... we need more information regarding what other games Gygax and Perren were playing before and during that period (hence my question above) to get a better picture concerning where the rules themselves evolved from. Short answer - all of them. Even shorter answer; nope. Said so himself.
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