Elves' Chainmail abilities in OD&D

[rabindranath72]

Dear all,
I am trying to understand how the special abilities of Elves when attacking fantasy monsters translate into OD&D when using the alternative combat system. Is this even possible? Has it been addressed somewhere? Does the whole simply translate into flat +1 to hit with swords and bows?

Thanks,
Antonio

[thegreyelf]

I don't think there are any guidelines for translating the abilities directly, but a flat +1 with swords and bows is probably the best way to handle it (and indeed is what happens eventually in AD&D).

Also, remember that those abilities in Chainmail (unless I'm remembering wrong) only apply when the elf is using a magic sword or magic arrows. So it's possible that those abilities were intended just to represent the idea that elves have more magic weapons, and not an actual racial ability.

[aldarron]

There's also this thread on DF talking about elves abilites via certain undead. www.dragonsfoot.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=44555

and Marv took a stab at adapting the "split move and shoot" rule in his S&W Whitebox. There's a thread on that floating around on the forum here too.

[cooper]

Taken literally, elves should deal double dmg vs ogres and trolls and have increased chance to hit vs. Goblins and orcs.

Another, more nuanced way to look at it would be +3 dmg vs ogres and trolls. The reason being that +3 is the statistical average of an extra hit. So an elf fighting a troll with 6 "hits" or hit dice does 1d6+3 damage on the 2d6 man to man attack roll or the alternate d20 attack roll. This would average out having elves kill a troll in 3 hits, just like chainmail says.

It is incorrect to say that this represents the elfs propensity to have magic weapons, as the rules clearly state that an elf with a magic weapon fights on the FCT as a hero and can therefore kill a troll with a single roll (representing a fantastic combat scenario)

[thegreyelf]

Sure, but the quote is: "Those Elves (and Fairies) armed with magical weapons add an extra die in normal combat, and against other fantastic creatures they will perform even better:"

It then goes on to list the "other fantastic creatures." The way this reads they only perform better in normal combat AND against fantastic creatures when wielding magical weapons.

[cooper]

I think I'm seeing what you're getting at. Let's look at the following table right after that quote and for the moment lets ignore the goblin/orc entry.

It's important to read the elf entry, the ogre entry and the magic weapon entry and to realize that they reference each other and to realize that normal combat = normal man to man combat
fantastic combat = fantastic man to man combat

First of all, [only]elves, wizards, and hero types pg. 38 can wield magic weapons and allows elves to combat fantastic monsters. This is what the chart references, when wielding a magic weapon, an elf can fight on the FCT, without a magic weapon an elf needs to roll 3 hits in order to kill a troll/ogre and needs 4 simultaneous hits to kill a hero or lycanthrope and cannot even hinder a dragon or wight at all!

Elves fight similar to a hero when armed with a magic weapon, this is evident that the chart references the FCT and gives scores for resolution using one roll of the dice. So then, I agree that the quote does reference wielding a magic weapon. Since everyone pg. 38 who wields a magic weapon gets and extra +1d6 to their 2d6 attack roll in normal combat (man to man)--presaging the +3 weapons of D&D.

looking over at the troll entry it says that, "elves kill them in 3 hits" while normal men kill them in 6. This is the double damage that any elf(s) in MtM or mass combat will do. It further states that a hero or [someone] armed with a magic sword kills them in 1 hit (using the FCT).


Normal man: kills ogre in 6 cumulative hits, heroes/lycanthropes with 4 simultaneous hits etc
normal elf: kills ogre in 3 hits, heroes/lycanthropes with 4 simultaneous etc.
elf with magic sword: kills ogre on 7+ on FCT, a hero on a 9+ etc...
hero with magic sword: kills ogre on 8+ on FCT etc...


I may need to rethink the goblin/orc rule as you've raised some interesting questions. For now I will stick with, in Man to Man combat a magic weapon grants a 3d6 attack roll instead of a 2d6, against orcs it is a 4d6 attack roll and against goblins it is a 5d6 attack roll almost, but not quite gauranteeing a hit vs. goblins or orcs, not quite as good as a heroes four attacks, the elf with a magic weapon gets one attack but with a large bonus. A quasi-hero, a demi-hero if you will...

[cooper]

But I think you have shown me than normal elves do not get this large bonus vs goblins and orcs in mass combat, it is reserved for Demi-hero elves armed with magic weapons in man to man combat only.

Because goblins and orcs do not appear on the FCT, a different bonus to a magic sword wielding elf had to be devised. Gygax opted not to grant 4x per round as a hero would have, so opted for one really good attack per round. This has precident from the non fantasy rules of man to man mounted combat, where you roll a 2d6+1 for your attack roll while on a horse (pg.26) or the -3 to your roll when attacking someone in magic armor, or the +1d6 (statistically the same as a +3) when wielding a magic sword.

[thegreyelf]

Cooper, the only thing I disagree with in your last two posts: I don't think the 1d6 is added to the 2d6 man to man combat roll. I think those rules are designed for mass combat tables (adding an extra die to the mass combat tables). Indeed, I think that's very clear given that the fantasy reference table gives mass combat ratings for Orcs and other fantasy-but-man-type critters (orcs fight as Hvy. Ft., for example).

I know that there are those on here who have vehemently argue that the fantasy supplement was only intended for man to man combat by putting forth the, "BUT GARY SAID!" argument in reference to an interview with him in an issue of Dragon...but I dismiss that interview because Gary contradicted himself A LOT over the years, and I think the very presence of mass combat stats in the Fantasy Supplement proves that it was intended for mass combat use.

In any case, only elves armed with magic weapons in mass combat would get the bonus.

How exactly this would translate to man-to-man rules is not clear (big surprise!) but I would be inclined to make it a +1 or +2 bonus. That's just my gut talking, as a an extra die in mass combat gives a 1- or 2-in-6 chance of an extra hit, so in man to man or fantasy combat this would increase chances of a hit by 1- or 2-in-6.* Also, having used the Chainmail combat system in my own game at home, I know just how massive every +1 is when using the 2d6 man to man combat rules.





*This is actually probably dead wrong. I'm poor with statistical math--even simple statistical math--but that's my gut feeling (and my gut has served me very well as a game designer!)

[cooper]

The magic armor paragraph specifically says that magic armor subtracts -3 from the attackers roll in man to man combat. pg. 38 It would be obtuse not to read the magic weapon paragraph in this light when it states that a magic sword adds +1d6 to your attack roll (the statistical opposite of the armor.). Why +1d6 and not a simple +3? Because then a fight between two heroes with magic swords and armor has no variability and would therefore be boring and boring is bad game design.

By the book, a hero on foot attacking an elf in magic armor riding a horse would roll 2d6-4 in man to man combat, why is it so strange to believe a magic sword wouldn't change the roll to 3d6-4?

Furthermore, the elf entry showing how an elf with a magic sword fights on the FCT can only be read as "man to man" because the FCT is individual combat (do you propose that the FCT shows a single roll to determine a battle between 20 heroes vs. 20 dragons?). So it would seem quite odd to single out orcs and goblins as mass combat when every other creature on the list is fought individually with a single 2d6 attack roll.

An elf with a magic sword is like a hero, except heroes get 4 attacks per round in MtM combat, but elfs don't. So Gary improved their single attack per round when fighting orcs and goblins, after all an elf with a magic sword can now kill a troll in one attack, why is it so strange to believe this improves their chances to kill a single goblin as well?


Regarding mass combat, so you're saying 1 unit of elves roll 4d6/5-6 vs 1 unit of goblins, but 10 units of elves roll 40d6/5-6 vs 10 units of goblins? What player would ever roll 40d6? Gary gygax was a better game designer than that. That would be a deal breaking rule totally at odds with fantasy recreation (hobbit/lotr) and no one would have used chainmail.

[cooper]

Finally

Magic weapons have a point value of 10. That is 10 points for each magic weapon (just as the point value for a hero is for a single hero). Equipping even one unit of elves with magic swords would cost 200 points! That would buy you an entire army of 4000 light foot men! or 1000 elves without magic weapons (50 units!) or 10 heroes or two smaug like dragons. All for a single unit of elves who would be wiped out in 1 hit automatically by a group of archers? Instant destruction of your army before melee even ensued. Besides the exorbitant cost, no where in Tolkien (the original purpose of the fantasy supplement) are there legions of soldiers walking around with mass produced glamdrils and stings.

[cooper]

I think that's very clear given that the fantasy reference table gives mass combat ratings for Orcs and other fantasy-but-man-type critters (orcs fight as Hvy. Ft., for example).

how else are you suppose to figure out how an orc fights in Man to Man combat? Hvy. Ft. translates to plate armor and chain armor+sword or whatever. The mass combat designations informed the man to man rules, but the absence of specifically stating that orcs fight in plate armor isn't absence of rules stating that they don't fight in man to man. So too, so many people are confused when reading that heroes fight as "armored, heavy foot or light foot etc", it was just to give guidelines on how to equip them in man-to-man combat without confusing player into thinking that a hero "must" wear plate or whatever, "heavy foot" allowed for a range of options left to the player. Gimli and Legolas do not kill up to 80 goblins per turn each, every minute...*. It would be impossible to recreate LotR battles using chainmail if this were the case, ironic given that the fantasy supplement was designed specifically for this purpose.


*for the record the totals were 41 and 42 over the whole battle, which works perfectly fine with 4 attacks per round in man to man combat.

[thegreyelf]

The rules don't say anywhere that Hvy Ft. translates to plate and chain + sword or whatever--that was a leap made by me when I broke down the Chainmail combat system for D&D (no, I'm not arrogant enough to think I'm the first to make that leap--I'm just saying that it's not in the rules, nor is it assumed anywhere in the rules--Heavy Foot, Light Foot, and Armored Foot are designations used solely for mass combat, not man to man).

You would figure out how orcs fight in man to man combat when it was described what weapon and armor the orcs have. If an orc is wearing leather and wielding a long sword, he's wearing leather and wielding a long sword. Man to Man assumes much more descriptive detail in individual warriors than does mass combat.

I don't see where my assumption of mass combat intent means 1 unit of elves would roll 4d6. 1 unit of elves would roll 2d6 if they had magic weapons--the weapons add +1 to the unit. It's clearly stated that elves fight as heroes only on the fantasy combat table (ie. against other fantasy critters), not in mass combat.

And that 10 points for magic weapons would simply increase the cost of your unit of elves by 10 points, not by 200 points.

However, you have an excellent point about why orcs in the table would be mass combat while everything else is one-on-one fantasy combat. That's absolutely astute, and I stand corrected where that's concerned. My gut still tells me that rolling 3d6 on the man to man tables is far more of a boon than was intended...but your rationale is every bit as sound as mine, so it could go either way.

And no, I don't assume the fantasy combat assumes 20 elves vs. 20 dragons. That would be rather foolish to try and defend. I may also be misrepresenting myself. I don't think the fantasy rules were unintended for man to man combat. I think they were intended for use in man to man, mass combat, and fantasy combat. Gygax and Perrin were just a bit obtuse in clarifying what applied where.

[cooper]

And that 10 points for magic weapons would simply increase the cost of your unit of elves by 10 points, not by 200 points.

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That's 10 points per arrow. That guy named Bard who killed Smaug? His arrow was worth 10 points.

20 elves = 4 points
1 hero who can fight on the FCT = 20 points
20 individual elves who can fight on the FCT = 14 points.

That seems improbable!

More like:
1 hero who fights as 4 men in MtM and can fight on the FCT = 20 points.
1 elf with a magic sword, fights as 1 man in MtM who can become invisible, can perform split move and fire and can fight on the FCT better than a hero vs. some opponents? = 14 points.

Strider and Legolas.

I think they were intended for use in man to man, mass combat, and fantasy combat. Gygax and Perrin were just a bit obtuse in clarifying what applied where.

I'm enjoying this discussion!

That being said. Fantasy Combat is man to man combat. Gygax and Perrin saw that a super hero fighting an ogre would have to roll lots and lots of dice every round in man to man (2d6x8 for the SH and 2d6x6 for the troll). In order to speed up play, the FCT was invented to resolve MtM combat between fantastic figures in a single roll. The d20 attack roll made it easier as now it's d20x8 vs. d20x6 and with the invention of Thac0 the 8th level fighters single attack but with an improved thac0 was now a stand in for the 8 attacks. This blended the FMtM table and the normal MtM table and D&D was born.

There are only two systems: CHAINMAIL mass combat and CHAINMAIL man to man combat. Both have a fantasy section.

A hero on a horse with a magic sword and armor fighting an Ogre in NMtM combat rolls 3d6+1 and attacks 4 times (and his horse attacks 2 times). The ogre rolls 2d6-4 and attacks six times.

Remember, the battle between heroes and ogres was not the focus of CHAINMAIL players, mass combat was! This is what confuses modern players. They therefore would have tried to resolve this quickly, thus the FCT.

Moving this lengthy combat on the the FMtM section (FCT) the hero rolls 2d6+1 (the +1 is for the magic sword, the minutia of the horse is not dealt with) and the ogre rolls 2d6-1 (the -1 is for the heroes magic armor, not the penalty on pg. 26 for attacking a mounted foe). Each get 1 attack, victory is resolved with a single roll.

The apparent rule is that for every +/-3 in normal MtM translates to +/-1 in Fantasy MtM.



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Man to Man Fantasy table:
sword: +1
armor: -1

Man to Man Normal table:
sword: +1d6
armor: -3

There is no mass combat use of magic items, weapons, or armor.

[cooper]

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a unit of 20 elves roll 1d6/x in mass combat, does double damage to ogre/trolls, can split move and fire, and is invisible until attacks, cannot kill dragons, nazguls, wights etc...

a single elf in MtM combat rolls one attack with 2d6 vs. armor class and cannot fight fantastic creatures that require a hero or magic weapon to hit. They however still do double damage to ogres/trolls.
a single elf with a magic weapon may now fight on the FCT and has a chance to slay a nazgul, wight, dragon etc... and on the MtM table rolls one attack 3d6 to attack most men and creatures, still do double damage vs trolls (but is better off attacking them on the FCT) however;

vs. orcs he now rolls one attack 4d6 in MtM combat vs. armor class (2d6 attack +1d6 from magic weapon +1d6 from hatred of orcs)
vs. goblins he now rolls one attack 5d6 in MtM combat vs. armor class (2d6 +1d6 from magic weapon +2d6 from extreme hatred of goblins.

A mounted elf demi-hero would roll 5d6+1 and a mounted elven ranger would roll 5d6+2. Yes, a single 5d6 is a big attack for MtM combat, but remember a hero has 4 attacks at 3d6 similarly armed againts all foes, not just orcs and goblins.

[thegreyelf]

Yes, the 10 points per arrow would mean that a unit of elves could have one shot against another unit for 10 points and then no longer have magic arrows. A unit of elves armed with magic swords increases the unit's cost by 10 points.

The problem is that the point costs break down somewhat between mass and man combat--a unit of elves in mass combat, for example, costs exactly the same as a single elf in standard man or fantasy man combat. You'd have to have a referee or the players would have to come to an agreement regarding how it works if a unit of elves breaks down to man combat to battle a dragon or other single-figure fantasy creature.

I agree that fantasy combat is man to man, btw. I differentiate them because they work a bit differently (heroes attack 4 times in man to man, but there's only ever one attack in fantasy, for example). So when I say man to man vs. fantasy think of it as "standard man to man" and "fantasy man to man."

I still think that magic weapons on the standard man to man fantasy combat are not +1d6. 3d6 on that table is obnoxiously powerful. But then, as your one upload demonstrates, magic weapons are not the +1 swords of D&D, but are "almost an entity unto themselves."

[aldarron]

Heh, Cooper, still a bit quick to make assumptions, I think. Really, dig into the history behind chainmail and you might not be so certain of some things. First CHAINMAIL isn't good game design, not by any stretch. Gygax & Perren's mass combat rules by themselves are generally okay, but the whole package is a mess and arguing that something "can't be" because Gygax was some kind of flawless uberdesigner doesn't wash. Especially the unity you insist on seeing in a document that has multiple sources and several anonymous authors not to mention that there is a very good chance that Gygax did not even invent the "alternate" D&D system but, like the man to man and jousting was a reworking of others material. The FCT and fantasy sections seem to be the only thing that's directly Gary's and its questionalble that he ever intended LotR battles to be its main purpose as he wasn't that big a fan. So arguing that swords must add 1d6 because its symmetry with magic armor at -3 isn't a valid argument. CHAINMAIL is clearly not a unified well thought out system, its a series of vignettes for gaming with some linking material given between them.

One last time I'll point out that nobody, including the original players, ever referred to "man to man" as the "normal" rules. CHAINMAIL, as you point out, is primarily a set of rules for running medieval battles with miniatures. The "normal" regular, basic, etc. rules are the mass battle rules. You are the only one on the planet who has ever tried to see it otherwise. I'm not sure it matters much to your arguments one way or another but there's no value in twisting terminology. I'd also point out that the sentence in question "Those Elves (and Fairies) armed with magical weapons add an extra die in normal combat... Goblins - add 3 dice to Combat Tables..." is PLURAL - both elves and tables. That alone suggests units of elveS fighting on the mass combat tableS.

Having said that, and noting that I'm generally agreeing with The Greyelf's reasoning, I'm not saying your conclusions are all wrong (mostly I think you are right or have found a good way of handling the rules) just suggesting more caution regarding your premises.

[cooper]

Dec 14, 2010 7:28:35 GMT -6 thegreyelf said:

Yes, the 10 points per arrow would mean that a unit of elves could have one shot against another unit for 10 points and then no longer have magic arrows. A unit of elves armed with magic swords increases the unit's cost by 10 points.

Except the rules state clearly that an elf with a magic arrow is treated like a hero on the FCT. You are telling me that 14 points that it takes to make a unit of elves each with one arrow apiece can literally wipe out a flight of dragons worth 2000 points? Why would you spend 10 army points to give a hero like bard a magic arrow, when you could outfit a unit of elves with 20x the potency?

The problem is that the point costs break down somewhat between mass and man combat--a unit of elves in mass combat, for example, costs exactly the same as a single elf in standard man or fantasy man combat.

No, you don't buy single elves. You buy a unit of 20 for 4 points. You buy a box of 20 elves and you can do with them as you will (send some on a MtM mission to mine a tunnel etc, or defend a door, or take out a group of orcs carrying a ladder, or battering ram. If you want to spend 10 points on a magic sword and give it to a single elf, that elf is now a demi-hero and can now fight on the FCT.

I still think that magic weapons on the standard man to man fantasy combat are not +1d6. 3d6 on that table is obnoxiously powerful. But then, as your one upload demonstrates, magic weapons are not the +1 swords of D&D, but are "almost an entity unto themselves."

Riding a horse gives you a +1 to your MtM attack roll, just being a ranger gives you a +1 to your attack roll. Is glamdring or sting, excacibur or Thor's hammer really on par with riding on a pony? Why do you think -3 for magic armor in MtM combat is fine, but +3 for magic sword is somehow overpowered?

Look at the Giant entry, they fight as 12 men in MtM combat and receive an extra die due to their oversized weapons. 3d6x12 attacks in man to man combat.

[thegreyelf]

I never said anything about magic armor. You did. Let's stay on task, please. And the rules do NOT say anything about elves with magic arrows. They specify elves with magic SWORDS

And are you saying that if I have to go to the fantasy combat table against a dragon and I've spent 10 points, I get to attack that dragon 20 times?

That's not remotely the intent. The problem is that man to man and fantasy don't scale the same as mass combat, but have the same point costs.

[cooper]

its questionalble that he ever intended LotR battles to be its main purpose as he wasn't that big a fan.

Yes, except for the Bard character ability, the rangers, the smaug like dragons, the balrogs, the hobbits, the orcs and goblins, the warg wolves, the ringwraiths stats, etc, his own write ups about the games he ran of the battle of the 5 armies...little things like that

[thegreyelf]

Mike Mornard, Dave Arneson and a number of other luminaries from those days have all pointed out repeatedly that LotR-isms were put in by Gary under duress. His group and playtesters demanded them based on the popularity of LotR at the time.

[cooper]

Dec 14, 2010 13:10:15 GMT -6 thegreyelf said:

I never said anything about magic armor. You did. Let's stay on task, please. And the rules do NOT say anything about elves with magic arrows. They specify elves with magic SWORDS

"pg. 38. "Treat elves armed with enchanted arrows as hero types in Fantastic combat."

They allow the figure (singular for Alderron ) to roll 2d6, just like normal combat and magic arrows auto hit (the basis for the magic missile spell BTW). However, vs. fantastic foes they can miss, but provide a +1 to your FCT roll.

Fantastic combat 2d6 roll:
magic swords: +1
magic armor: -1
magic arrows: +1

Normal combat 2d6 roll:
swords: +1d6
armor: -3
arrows: auto-hit
ranger: +1
riding a horse: +1
attacking a mounted enemy: -1

Why does normal combat have higher modifiers? Because heroes and ogres and dragons can take 4, 6, 12 simultaneous hits before being defeated, in fantastic combat it's all resolved in a single attack making each modifier more important.

[thegreyelf]

Okay, I stand corrected on that...in that case we go back to the difference in scale between man and mass combat, but with the same point costs.

[cooper]

Dec 14, 2010 13:25:58 GMT -6 thegreyelf said:

Okay, I stand corrected on that...in that case we go back to the difference in scale between man and mass combat, but with the same point costs.

You buy 60 elves for 12 points. You make 2 units for mass combat, but you break up the remaining 20 elves for MtM in order to mine a tunnel, guard a bridge, man parapets to repel ladders (specifically states to be done in MtM! Only 5 men can stand and guard a bridge) Spend another 10 points and you get a cheapo-version of a hero unit incase your opponent in game sends a true troll, a wight, or an anti-hero over to massacre your individual groups of elves. A single evil hero could single handedly kill all the ladder elves, but if one elf had a magic weapon, then the anti-hero can be slain more easily as that elf can now fight on the FCT. Look at my example with aragorn and gimli defeating the battering ram uruk-hai in man to man combat.

Pg. 23. "all combat is man to man". See, "MAN TO MAN COMBAT.".

What you don't do is buy your mass combat elves for 4 points and then switch to MtM and buy each elf for 4 points as well.


How would this look? MASS COMBAT: You'd have your anti-hero leading 6 units of goblins in mass combat (see "army commanders" pg. 21, adding +1 to each 6d6/x-x) fighting 4 units of elves on the field of battle. CUT TO MAN TO MAN: The player decides to sneak a group of 8 goblins and 4 mantelists to batter down a side door. The 5 elves guarding the door are doing fine, until the player decides to pull the anti-hero away from mass combat (and therefore lose the +1 to the groups he is leading). Upon arrival the elves are doing quite poorly as this anti-hero needs 4 simultaneous hits in a single round to bring down, unlikely given their numbers and his armor. Luckily there is an elf nearby with a magic sword/arrow to challenge him to combat and rolls a lucky high score and defeats the anti-hero. The door remains safe and the forces of chaos have lost an army commander. BACK TO MASS COMBAT.

First CHAINMAIL isn't good game design, not by any stretch.

I think people have gotten into that mindset. I agree that it's not explained well, but it's a genius game that covers so, so, so much so simply and so well.

If your default assumption when reading it is, "Gygax must have made a mistake here, he didn't understand what he was doing." Perhaps, you should consider it is you who is not understanding something and not he. .

[thegreyelf]

Dec 14, 2010 13:34:25 GMT -6 cooper said:

What you don't do is buy your mass combat elves for 4 points and then switch to MtM and buy each elf for 4 points as well.

Actually, that's exactly what you do. Man to Man and mass combat were not intended to be mixed. They are two different types of play. The fantasy supplement even makes this assumption, but allows for hero-types to break from combat to battle single fantastic creatures on the FCT.

Unless you're implying that in the middle of a fantasy battle, a unit of elves sees a dragon and gets to make 20 tries to kill it.

[cooper]

It is "you" who are implying that 20 elves get 20 shots at a dragon. A unit of elves cannot attack a dragon, only a hero, or a single elf armed with a magic weapon can.

Your position is ridiculous. I'm sorry. running sieges and attacking castles is a huge part of CHAINMAIL and takes up a fairly large portion of the non-fantasy section. You use man to man to accomplish the battering ram section, and then your mass combat troops pour through the breech. Fantasy battles can be run side by side with non-fantasy battles and side by side with man to man battles. It is impossible to "buy" units in MtM combat as you can put a whole unit on a castle wall, but as soon as the ladders start coming up they must fight man to man. Are you saying these units of elves you bought now need to be paid for again?

Heroes are not mass combat units. They function as army commanders in mass combat, and 4-8 men in MtM. Dragons kill 12 men per turn with their claws, not 240 (except their dragon breath which acts like a catapult in mass combat which can only kill 3" worth of troops) A wizard fights as 2 well armored men in man to man combat and their fireball effects mass combat.

[thegreyelf]

Actually, dude, running sieges and attacking castles is expressly NOT a huge part of Chainmail, and takes up a comparatively small part of the rules, which are pretty clear that Chainmail is not designed for sieges.

And IF You run a siege, as the rules are pretty clear on, you do NOT use mass combat at all.

Heroes can expressly be attached to mass combat units and are the last member of a unit to be killed, requiring four hits to do so. So when you have a hero attached to a unit and the unit is killed, it turns into your hero, which then needs four hits to die. Heroes ARE, in fact, mass combat units, requiring four simultaneous hits from a unit to kill.

[cooper]

Dude,

What do you mean you don't use mass combat. Why bother using a battering ram other than to allow the mass combat troops to pour through the breech?

For petes sake, a dragons breath at most can kill 8 units tightly packed, that's 160 men. Why use breath weapon when they can melee 16 units every turn with their claws or 320 men?

large catapult is 3" using a 28 mm base unit that is at most 8 units if they are tightly packed. Take the mounted wizard. 2 heavy horse? A wizard can melee 8 units of light foot per turn without using his spells? Why bother with fireball?

[cooper]

Heroes can expressly be attached to mass combat units and are the last member of a unit to be killed, requiring four hits to do so. So when you have a hero attached to a unit and the unit is killed, it turns into your hero, which then needs four hits to die. Heroes ARE, in fact, mass combat units, requiring four simultaneous hits from a unit to kill.

again, read the army commander rules pg. 21. The hero and super hero paragraphs are modified directly from this previous character they are not mass combat units. They lead units in mass combat. If the army commanders units are destroyed so is the army commander, if the heroes units are destroyed the hero lives to fight in man to man combat or join another unit. A hero must be killed in individual combat.

[cooper]

Pg. 26 in the man to man section under morale rules, gygax refers to "4 heavy foot being charged by 1 heavy horse". When he is explicitly talking about 4 men being charged by a single man on a horse.

Just because he calls a wizard "2 armored foot" doesn't mean he is saying a single wizard has the melée prowess of 40 men! They fight as would 2 armored foot, not 2 UNITS of armored foot.

0d&d assumed players were using chainmail for mass combat, how can you use chainmail for mass combat if your 8th level magic user all of a sudden can miraculously kill 40-80 men per turn with his dagger?!

Two armored foot AC 2 thac0: 21

Mathematically, every extra attack in d&d is worth +4 to hit on the alternative d20 so two attacks at thac0 21 turns into;

8th level wizard AC 2 (shield spell) Thac0: 17.

[thegreyelf]

sigh. This debate has de-evolved into circular back-and-forth covering the same ground over and over, and worse, you've strayed it FAR from the original point of discussion. It's pointless to continue.