Stars without number

[oldgamergeek]

This is a Retro Cousin, old school style Sci- Fi RPG. I have been going into it and really like it.
sinenomine-pub.com/
see link above.

[sinenomine]

Thanks for mentioning it here, OGG. The particular special flavor of OD&D is something I hesitated in trying to recapture in writing Stars Without Number, but I was strongly influenced by it. OD&D to me has always been strong on evocation and playstyle assumption; the LBBs seemed to be talking to an audience that already knew how to wargame, who already had a mental model of play, and who only needed a framework to translate their prior experience into the key of individual-character adventuring. It evoked a lot with its assumptions and sketchy details and in doing so encouraged people to make the game their own.

For SWN, I tried to make that playstyle more explicit for modern gamers, and build the sort of game that helped support it in a modern idiom. The emphasis on sandbox gaming and party-directed adventuring is built into the rulebook and called out explicitly to both players and GMs. The world and adventure generation chapters try to use some of the more modern techniques to support the GM in creating the kind of sandboxes that are so laborious and time-consuming to make in most games, but the actual model of play behind it is very much what I consider to be "old school sandboxing". There are interesting situations and places Here, Here, and Here, and it's up to your party to decide where to go and what to do with them.

I'm expecting to release the first adventure module for the game tomorrow on Lulu, and Hard Light has that same sandbox structure. It has an interesting place with interesting people for a home base, and then multiple other points in the area that the adventurers can choose to explore on their own terms. It's that sort of freewheeling liberty that I really find intrinsic to my conception of old-school gaming.

Edit: And here we go- Hard Light is out on Lulu now.

[makofan]

I just read Stars Without Number and it is the most impressive game I have read since Mazes & Minotaurs. I have been toying with resurrecting Traveller, or introducing Universe, but I now think if I was to try a sci-fi game I would use SWN. It is comprehensive, simple and elegant, with lots of help for the GM

[Mike]

On the strength of the free rule book I immediately purchased the first (of many I hope) supplement/adventure. I haven't had chance to read through Hard Light yet (the adventure) but at first blush it looks every bit as good as the main rules. Love the fact that it has a module code (M1) on the cover. ;D

The standard of presentation and writing throughout is really quite jaw-dropping. The implementation of the old school rules with the target-20 combat system is simply brilliant; the integration of the skills system is seamless.

Also the rule book is probably the most complete sci-fi game I've encountered, if I hadn't been compelled to snap up the first adventure, the main book is all you'd ever need. Particularly awesome is the GM section bursting with ideas, random planets, factions, companies etc.

Well I'm happy!

Edit: I forgot to mention the chapter that should be included in every game 'Designers Notes'... The author explains why particular design decisions were taken and slips in some option rules for those unhappy with the choices made.

[Mike]

Hey, as the author is posting - here's a quick questions.

In the GM resources area it lists NPC stats for level 1 - 10 for each class. In the notes on reading the tables, it lists NPCs receiving a stat bonus at 13 (+1) rather than 14 for PCs. Typo?

Also, the Teleportation rules talking in terms of kilos but equipment is measured in 'items' so how does that work?

[sinenomine]

Dec 11, 2010 23:39:14 GMT -6 Mike said:

Hey, as the author is posting - here's a quick questions.

In the GM resources area it lists NPC stats for level 1 - 10 for each class. In the notes on reading the tables, it lists NPCs receiving a stat bonus at 13 (+1) rather than 14 for PCs. Typo?

Also, the Teleportation rules talking in terms of kilos but equipment is measured in 'items' so how does that work?

I'm very glad that the game is turning out to suit you so far. It's always the very devil to get things Just Right, and it's still not polished perfectly yet. One of those errors you've spotted already- the NPC stats are supposed to have 14s in their strong stats and 7s in their weak ones to hit the correct modifier range. I've already corrected it in the hardcover and perfect-bound proofs I've submitted, and I'll be fixing it in the PDF version once I harvest a few more typos and have the time to sit down and re-bookmark the ensuing output. InDesign is wonderful, but the bookmark output seems to be broken when outputting from book files as opposed to document files, so I have to re-bookmark the output in Acrobat every time I burn a new revision.

As for teleportation, that was a sticky one for me. I picked a per-item basis encumbrance system because I thought it would be one most likely to actually get used in play, rather than obliging PCs and GMs to either essentially ignore encumbrance or force the GM to decide just how many kilos or encumbrance points every doodad and gimcrack they carry happened to weigh. I find it works fairly smoothly in normal play, but as you've noticed, it can get sticky when the exact actual kilo weights involved are relevant. I decided that it was easier to with stickiness in psionic teleportation than stickiness in encumbrance, since one system would apt to be used a lot more than the other.

I considered reworking Teleportation to cite "You and X items" for each given level. But how many items is another person worth? Well, call it ten; people are unwieldy. But you know, those people are carrying items too, so you have to add those in... and in the end, I decided it was easier to just give a kilo range and let the GM decide that a level 3 psychic teleporter can jump with his weapons, armor, and ammo, but he's got to leave his backpack behind. The problem largely goes away at level 5, because at that level, the weight increment starts to get big enough that you can start dealing in "How many people can you teleport with you?" and what they're carrying isn't all that important. I'm sure it could be more elegant, but I expect a GM can sort it out with minimal fuss.

[Alex]

See Dragonsfoot for my glowing recommendation and review.

[makofan]

Dear Sinenomine

I decided to go through the rules these holidays and attempt to absorb them and play them. I have some feedback on the Character Sheet.

These are the things that I think would improve it - just nitpicks

1) A space to put Background and Training (i.e. Transport Specialist/Pilot) and the class' special ability (re-roll failed skill check once/hour). This helps with chargen and also keeps the character's background in the player's mind.
2) A place to put the character's AC
3) A line for Languages
4) Splitting the "Current HP and PP" box in two

I don't mind figuring this out if you want to send me an editable copy of the player character sheet.

[sinenomine]

Dec 14, 2010 14:25:28 GMT -6 makofan said:

1) A space to put Background and Training (i.e. Transport Specialist/Pilot) and the class' special ability (re-roll failed skill check once/hour). This helps with chargen and also keeps the character's background in the player's mind.
2) A place to put the character's AC
3) A line for Languages
4) Splitting the "Current HP and PP" box in two

All good points. The sheet's a little tight for space, but I really should put in an AC blank rather than leaving the player to remember it off their equipment, and the other items would be nice to have. I've got it in an inDesign document right now, but I'll see if I can't improve things for the next revision edit. It's a bit tricky at points, since the POD printer I'm using requires a .5 inch margin around the sheet. It costs me more page real estate than I'd like.

[makofan]

OK, good points - let's see what I can do here

Background/Training/Ability fits just perfectly under the MASTERED DISCIPLINES box, and HP/PP is just a line down the middle. AC is tougher, probably I would just write it under Stowed Gear: Vacc Suit AC 7. LAnguages could be a line to the left of CREDITS, taking a bit of space out of the NON-ENCUMBRANCE GEAR box.

More nice touches would be a box beside readied Gear and Stowed Gear where you can write your encumbrance numbers - My STR 11 Expert put a (5) beside Readied Gear and an (11) beside Stowed Gear. A small column down the right-hand side of those two boxes could be a space to write the encumbrance value of the item (Vacc Suit is Enc 2 for example)

[sinenomine]

Dec 14, 2010 15:24:44 GMT -6 makofan said:

OK, good points - let's see what I can do here

Background/Training/Ability fits just perfectly under the MASTERED DISCIPLINES box, and HP/PP is just a line down the middle. AC is tougher, probably I would just write it under Stowed Gear: Vacc Suit AC 7. LAnguages could be a line to the left of CREDITS, taking a bit of space out of the NON-ENCUMBRANCE GEAR box.

More nice touches would be a box beside readied Gear and Stowed Gear where you can write your encumbrance numbers - My STR 11 Expert put a (5) beside Readied Gear and an (11) beside Stowed Gear. A small column down the right-hand side of those two boxes could be a space to write the encumbrance value of the item (Vacc Suit is Enc 2 for example)

I've had occasion to make up a new file for the perfectbound and hardcover versions, and I've incorporated handy ideas like these for the Languages, AC, Background and Training Packages, and split HP/PP boxes, plus using that space down in the bottom right for a Class Ability blank. For Encumbrance, actually, what you can do for multi-item-encumbrance gear is just dash off the box beneath the item on the encumbrance list- so an item that's worth 2 for encumbrance purposes would be written in on line 1 and then you'd dash a mark on line 2. To find out what your current encumbrance is, you'd just glance at the numbering on the right and see what your last filled box was.

Once I get a few more corrections submitted, I'll update the sheet in the back of the ebook version and build a new revision for bookmarking and posting. Thanks for the eye on things.

[crusssdaddy]

I really like those faction rules. I've just started getting into them, but it's like a game within a game.

[sirjaguar]

We were going to try out Stars Without Number. I went to Kinko's/FedEx to get it printed, but FedEx said they could not print it because it was copyrighted. I wrangled with them for a while on this, but they were adamant about it saying it was a corporate policy to avoid legal problems.

Have other folks had this problem? It might help if the copyright statement mentioned that the .pdf holder has permission to print one copy. Or is this permission _not_ intended?

I've searched the Sine Nomine page and Sine Nomine, but nowhere does it mention permission to print the rules.

[oldgamergeek]

Kinkos/Fedex would not even print up my Doctrinal Position papers. Go to Office max they have never given me grief about printing

[talysman]

Kinko's had that policy since before Fedex owned them. And, as annoying as the policy is, it is technically correct. People need to remember to put permission statements somewhere in their PDFs.

[sinenomine]

Dec 18, 2010 13:27:39 GMT -6 sirjaguar said:

I've searched the Sine Nomine page and Sine Nomine, but nowhere does it mention permission to print the rules.

I'm sorry to hear you had trouble getting it printed. I should put something into the next revision to the effect that printing for personal use is permitted, but in the meanwhile I've added a note to the product description at sinenomine-pub.com stating that printing the ebook version is permitted.

The next revision of the ebook file is apt to come at about the same time as hardcover and perfect-bound options appear on DriveThruRPG. I'm just waiting for them to accept the layout files and send me proofs before I activate that option.

[sinenomine]

And to put paid to the printing problem, I've finally managed to get hardback and perfect-bound printing options available at DTRPG. I'm not sure what Kinkos charges for printing and binding these days, but the proofs I've gotten from Lightning Source look really nice to me; darker than the Lulu prints I've tried before.

[cooper]

Hi, just read the rules. Really, really impressive.


Do you think you could add a section on starship (and individual) combat that could be compatable with CHAINMAIL type rules? Or do you feel your 'faction' rules cover this type of large scale combat?

Even if it does (like BECMI dominion rules) it would be neat to be able to easily run a battle with 30 ships on either side focusing on tactics/positioning and not getting bogged down in rolling damage and tracking hit points.

Like fighters are LF and battle ships are 4 heavy horse or something.

[sinenomine]

It's tempting to add large-scale space combat rules, and I don't see any reason why Chainmail couldn't serve as an interesting source of inspiration, but there are a few subtle, nasty hooks that are keeping me away from it right now. The biggest problem, for me, is that any attempt to produce a non-abstracted mass combat system is functionally equivalent to writing a new wargame. And it has to interface with the ship statistics generated by the RPG, or else it cheapens the strategic and tactical choices players make about fleet composition and would require constant updating to remain compatible with future hull types and fittings. I'm pretty sure I can write an OSR-flavored RPG, but I'm not a wargame grognard and Chainmail can't be brought across straight. I'd have to fumble with a lot of it and I'm not convinced the end result would be a whole lot of fun to play.

Thus, right now I leave it as something resolved on the faction asset combat level. Still, I'm hoping to get an abstracted space battle resolution system added into my upcoming space navy supplement, though it'll owe more to the BECMI War Machine than to Chainmail.

[cooper]

Let me see if I can give it a quick stab. CHAINMAIL is very close to d&d since the idea behind all the damage is 1 hit = 1 dmg (3.5 hit points = 3.5 damage using averages on the d6 scale, or 4.5 hit points 4.5 damage on the d8 ad&d scale)

A fighter craft has 8 hit points. Which is 1 hit die (actually 2 if we're looking at averages). Let me assume you assigned it, "full hit points like people do to 1st level characters though).

A fighter has 1 hit and therefore each unit of fighters (1:10 or 1:20 what have you) 80 fighters in a 1:20 scale would have 4 hits.

The damage from the attacks is variable. It has 1 hard point. The damage range is anywhere from 1d4 dmg from a multifocal laser, to 2d6/3d4 from a reaper battery/fractal impact charge. or about 1/2 hit to 2 hits.

A flight of fighters with the weaker weapon would roll 4d6/x damage and count only every other "hit" as dmg. A flight of fighters with a reaper battery would defend--as shown above with 4 hits, but attack with 8d6/x damage or roll 4d6/x counting each hit as 2. (very similar to how some monsters can defend as light foot but attack as heavy foot for example).

Lets pit this 4 units of heavily gunned wing of fighters against 1 unit of battleships (80 fighters vs. 20 battleships). Battle ships have 100 hit points--assuming max hit points per level we're looking at a 12 HD creature here. So a battle ship takes 12 hits.

Our fighters roll there 8d6/x damage dice and must score 12 hits before taking out the unit of battle ship (not gonna happen in the first round for sure)

How much damage will our battle ships do? Lets put 3 mass cannons and 1 lighting charge mantle on it (total of 15 hardpoints) Total damage is 7d20 dmg. which--when converted to d8 dmg 17d8 or 17 hits.

Our battle ship will roll 17d6/x dmg with each hit taking out 1 unit of fighters. This will be a short fight...

Let us further stipulate that while fighters are on a 1:20 scale battle ships are on a 1:2 scale. So it's actually 80 fighters vs. 2 battle ships. If the 80 fighters manage do deal 12 dmg, then 2 battleships have been destroyed.

fighter & frigates: 1:20 scale
cruiser: 1:10 scale
capital: 1:2 scale.

or 1:10/1:5/1:1 scale.

You could further make it easier by dividing capital ships hits and damage by 4, like horses are done in CHAINMAIL. So our battleship has 3 hits (but anything other than a capital ship needs to roll 4 hits to deal 1 dmg) and the 17d6 dmg is reduced to 4d6 dmg (but each hit against non capital ships is counted as 4).

Vs. cruisers the damage from capital ships is only counted as 2. 4d6/x dmg from a battle ship with each hit counting as 2 vs. a cruiser and 4 vs. a unit of fighter.


this would be at it's most simple form. Defenses could do things like adjust a xd6/5-6 hit for example to a xd6/6 etc thereby lowering the probability of a "hit".
--------

Recap: 1:20 scale-- 80 fighters well armed have 4 hits and roll 8d6/x dmg (counting every 4 hits as only 1 dmg). The 2 capital ships have 3 hits and deal 4d6/x dmg (counting each hit as 4).

[makofan]

Question about Psychics Power Points
At level 4, does a psychic have 7 power points, or 1+3+5+7= 16 power points?

[sinenomine]

The latter- the psychic gains additional points each level. The game's assumption is that he or she is going to be sinking substantial amounts of them into mastering psychic powers, and should have enough to fully master their primary discipline by 9th level- assuming they're willing to be limited in the number of times they can trigger their secondary disciplines. They can get around that by spreading out their secondary points and only taking one or two points worth of each other discipline, but if they do that, they sacrifice the opportunity to have two strong power sets.

Of course, a psychic could forgo mastering anything, and just let the PP stack up. In practice, not a lot of players are eager to do this- high-level psychic powers tend to be the sort of thing you want to have available 24/7, and the only way to be sure of that is to invest in mastery.

[makofan]

Thx, sine

I read it the way you intended, but since the advancement chart shows the hit dice as cumulative, I was not sure how you meant the PP

[sinenomine]

Jan 24, 2011 9:27:07 GMT -6 makofan said:

Thx, sine

I read it the way you intended, but since the advancement chart shows the hit dice as cumulative, I was not sure how you meant the PP

It is potentially confusing, so I've updated the source file to explicitly read "+3/+5/+x". It should show up when I do the next PDF revision or the next hardcopy typo fixing pass.

[Mike]

Brill... When will the next update be?

[sinenomine]

It takes a bit to get a fresh ebook up, since I have to re-bookmark everything due to a quirk in inDesign. I'm hoping to get to that, however, after I finish getting Skyward Steel out, the new supplement for running naval campaigns in the SWN universe. It's very close to completion- here's the current cover- and is in the final stages of editing and layout tweaking. As such, I might be able to get the new edits in place by weekend after next.

[Mike]

Hey, I've just realised that it feels like there's just one tiny thing missing from SWN... Trading rules.

There's a nice page explaining starship expenses but no details on making cash. Any chance of seeing an addendum in the near future?

[nezach]

That Skyward Steel cover looks pretty cool. Who did it if I may ask?

[sinenomine]

Feb 11, 2011 20:16:04 GMT -6 Mike said:

Hey, I've just realised that it feels like there's just one tiny thing missing from SWN... Trading rules.

There's a nice page explaining starship expenses but no details on making cash. Any chance of seeing an addendum in the near future?

Actually, the topic of making cash by trading is covered on page 86, under "Interstellar Trade". It's a fairly cursory system since most of the game's source inspirations that deal with daring interstellar merchants aren't so interested in profit-loss ratios. Most of the time, the cargo is simply a macguffin to explain why the merchants are going through whatever misery they're enduring. For those who prefer a more econ-sim approach to things, further elaboration could be handy, but that's a very large job that's easy to do badly, and I'd need some more time to think about what exactly I'd want to accomplish with such a system.

As for nezach's question about the cover, the illo is actually a piece of stock art I yanked off Fotalia by an artist who simply goes as "Innovari". Most of his or her stuff is far too visibly CGI for my tastes, but this one really suited me. So I bought it, flipped it upside-down, erased a few tell-tale signs that it had been inverted, and stroked that brushed-metal sidebar down the left and bottom margins in photoshop. Voila- a cover for $8.

[Mike]

Thanks for the comments about trading - I did find that section (not right away though, it seems that every time I open the book I find another gem, or three).

At first blush it seemed too cursory, given the detail lavished on every other aspect of the game (and of course, the sandbox nature of the default play style) but I can cope until another archive surfaces (maybe)... ;D

Hey, any chance of a dedicated forum at your site or even here?

I know I keep repeating myself but... this game is incredible!