zeraser
Level 4 Theurgist
Posts: 184
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Post by zeraser on Jun 23, 2012 12:17:04 GMT -6
"the Dragonarmy may have taken diferent places, and each place is a "city-state"."
Good suggestion - working in some internal tensions among the Dragonarmies could be very productive.
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Post by waysoftheearth on Jun 23, 2012 18:31:47 GMT -6
What they "should" have done was to set up some generic encounter modules instead of a sweepong epic that does exactly what the books do. That would make more sense to me, and would probably have gotten more gamers interested. I have a lot on my plate at the mo, so it's slow going but I've been quietly working away on a rehash of DL1 the way I think they should have done it  I'm hoping to give it a run sometime after DD is in the wild. Darned cool logo, if you ask me. Screams "retro clone" to me. Glad to hear you like it ;D |
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Post by maxvale76 on Jun 24, 2012 13:45:25 GMT -6
Okay....coming at this from a bit of a different persepective and to clear up a few (in my opinion) myths of early Dragonlance... First: About the whole "railroad" thing....the basic premise is a group of heroes rediscovering the True Gods and thru this; get involved in a war of Good Gods vs. Evil Gods playing out with thier respective factions on earth (or Krynn)....if this isn't your cup of tea; I'd suggest not playing the series...or at least, to just take the parts you like and use only that. I think it is important to remember that the modules never pretended to be anything like a "sandbox" and I've never understood why so many players take offense at the notion of following a path/quest. Why does DL takes so much "railroad" flak; but module series like GDQ or A1-4 don't...in thier own way they are kind of 'railroading' the players on a path; if you don't follow the clues in each module that lead to the next....the train gets de-railed.... Second: DL 1 is actually fairly "sandbox" in many ways as it presents different encounter areas throughout Abysinia. (Solace, Haven, the various roads, Vales and Woods, etc.). I think the major "Railroading" moments come with the Forest Master scene in Darken Wood; which leads directly to the Dungeon of Xak Tsaroth. At the latter is the "finding the Gods and getting the quest to find the artifact" moment. As this is THE moment the characters really get into the basic story-line that ties all of the modules together; how exactly SHOULD it be done? The Gods say..."Oh yeah....we really exist....and if you want....there are some disks in the dungeon below that can enable Clerics to actually have Powers for the first time in 350 years.....or you can wander around and do whatever you like. It's cool...." (Which by the way; the players COULD still do...there's no text about the Gods Divinely forcing the characters' to go get the Disks) There's plenty of sections of the first part of the module talking about various regions with just little bits of notes that DMs can utilize as they will. Yes; there's a war coming...and if you go into the enemy occupied areas; the module suggests taking the PCs prisoner and moving onto the Xak Tsaroth scene....but smart DMs can do whatever they like to change this...and as mentioned above; if the main storyline isn't your cup of tea...why play this series? Third: I sometimes SERIOUSLY wonder how many people have actually spent serious time looking at the modules beyond DL 1 and DL 2. Most of them are EXTREMELY SANDBOXY....especially DL 12-14. Many of these modules have a list of several "Events" which occur either when a certain amount of time has passed or if certain areas on a map are visited. This is then followed by areas on a map (sometimes quite a LARGE map); number coded and short descriptions with suggested encounters written in the matching numbers in the text. VERY LITTLE room by room or PCs must go here and then there in much of the text at all. DLs 8 and DL 12 especially jump out for this kind of "ranging and roving" adventures if the PCs so choose. Basically there IS a suggested "path" for the over-arching story to take; but there's more than enough room in MANY of the modules for DMs to use what they will and create all kinds of adventures. There is also no real mechanic that says; "If the characters don't do X; the Gods make them". Sure; there are plenty of parts that include text that says; "When they choose to do X; Y happens"....but I think this is true of quite a bit of D&D modules; it certainly isn't limited to Dragonlance. The GDQ series might not have had as "epic" a backstory; but in many ways it's every bit as grand as the Giants' attacks are found to be at the behest of the Drow; who are working at behest of Lloth....none of which would be learned about if the characters sack the Steading in G1 and say..."nah; we don't feel like moving onto G2; we're gonna go check out THESE hills over here." At which point the DM can do whatever he wishes....make up new stuff; or shift the Frost Giants to THOSE hills and thereby quietly keep the players on the Rails.... Which to me is the whole point....basically; campaigns are either episodic missions which have little to do with each other; or they have some kind of plot behind them (i.e. Rails). If the latter; some are overt and some are less so....but what's the real difference? Fourth: FAR too many people seem to think the books came first. They did not...at least; not before the first couple of modules were written. In fact; the authors of the book were among the players/DM of a session playing DL1; when the idea of turning it into an epic novel series was born. Hickman and Weiss then went on to turn out the Triolgy....while simultaneously many of the modules were being written. While the two are quite similiar; there are many places where they are quite different or where the book glosses over and the Characters play through major encounters that are quite different than what happened in the book. In fact; there are several "alternate" ending possibilities in DL 14 that are QUITE different than the one used in the novels; while at the same time keeping the one used in that story as well. Finally: While I am a big fan of the early Dragonlance stuff; I've pretty much hated everything they've done since the "Dragons of Summer Flame" book....so to me; the War of the Lance remains my highpoint.....I just want that to be known lest anyone think me some kind of DL rabid fan who screams "FOUL!" at anyone saying something bad about the setting.  Personally; I am an old-school fan of "basic" or "vanilla" Fantasy, I guess...I like things about groups of good (or mostly good) heroes fighting evil; on a small scale or large. Many of the more "dark edged" or plain mercenary "Let's just go kill things and take thier stuff" campaign ideas just really don't appeal to me. So chalk me down as one of the suckers that doesn't mind a little "choo-choo" in my gaming; if the story line behind is an enjoyable one. Anyway, as always To each thier own; but for the love of God; if something in a published book/adventure/whatever isn't to your liking....change it! Gary himself throws this out there in the DM's guide! |
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Post by sulldawga on Jun 24, 2012 20:09:30 GMT -6
I have a lot on my plate at the mo, so it's slow going but I've been quietly working away on a rehash of DL1 the way I think they should have done it I'm hoping to give it a run sometime after DD is in the wild. *cough, cough* interested in playing *cough, cough* |
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Post by waysoftheearth on Jun 25, 2012 16:11:45 GMT -6
*cough, cough* interested in playing *cough, cough* Your place is locked in Sulldawga |
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Post by aldarron on Jun 25, 2012 19:18:45 GMT -6
; and I've never understood why so many players take offense at the notion of following a path/quest. That's simple. A lot of players and DM's alike much prefer to not know what the future holds or how it will end. It's freedom vs predestiny. Why does DL takes so much "railroad" flak; but module series like GDQ or A1-4 don't...in thier own way they are kind of 'railroading' the players on a path; if you don't follow the clues in each module that lead to the next....the train gets de-railed.... Sure; there are plenty of parts that include text that says; "When they choose to do X; Y happens"....but I think this is true of quite a bit of D&D modules; it certainly isn't limited to Dragonlance. The GDQ series might not have had as "epic" a backstory; but in many ways it's every bit as grand as the Giants' attacks are found to be at the behest of the Drow; who are working at behest of Lloth....none of which would be learned about if the characters sack the Steading in G1 and say..."nah; we don't feel like moving onto G2; we're gonna go check out THESE hills over here." At which point the DM can do whatever he wishes....make up new stuff; or shift the Frost Giants to THOSE hills and thereby quietly keep the players on the Rails.... Heresy! but I think quite true. Story arc gaming certainly did not begin with dragonlance. But this is waay off topic I think, and you might want to post this stuff in another thread if you want to pursue the idea. |
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Post by waysoftheearth on Jun 25, 2012 20:31:02 GMT -6
Why does DL takes so much "railroad" flak; but module series like GDQ or A1-4 don't... there are plenty of parts that include text that says; "When they choose to do X; Y happens"... I have no problem with that. What doesn't sit well with me is when the text says; If the players do X, then Y happens. But, if the players don't do X, then Y happens anyway. Which means that player choices do not influence the game world. Which, IMHO, makes for a pretty bland game. |
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zeraser
Level 4 Theurgist
Posts: 184
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Post by zeraser on Jun 26, 2012 9:08:41 GMT -6
Can I ask a question, then? If the players don't know that their having done X is irrelevant to the outcome of Y, what's the harm in X having no effect on Y? In other words, if the illusion of player choice is maintained, in what way is the players' experience compromised?
(On the other hand, I can certainly see how your DMing experience would be made more bland by a "Y happens anyway" situation.)
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Post by maxvale76 on Jun 26, 2012 11:08:03 GMT -6
My apologies if this has completely de-railed the thread; but I just wanted to point out that in my opinion; the DL series gets a lot of flak for being "railroady" while many other module series do not. Also; out of the 12 modules (I know there are 14; but DL 5 is a sourcebook and DL 11 is a board game); I'd say at least half are EXTREMELY sandboxy in my opinion....DL 12 almost annoyingly so; in my opinion. As for the events that occur no matter what the Players do; other than the course of the war that the Evil side takes; I'm not sure exactly what is being referred to. As for the characters' actions affecting the world; the entire series is about a war with a party of adventurers (i.e. the PCs) being responsible for a HECK OF A LOT of things that affect huge portions of the continent....to name a few: Bringing back Good (and possibly Neutral as well) Clerics to the world; taking out numerous high ranking Dragon Highlords/Highmasters and thier Dragons; tying up portions of the Dragon Armies to allow other Good factions to flee/organize/etc.; bringing back the Good Dragons to the side of Weal; etc., etc. Not sure how much more impact the PCs could have? Also...to an earlier poster; I should have phrased one of my earlier points better...I can completely understand why players (and DMs for that matter) would want to run "open sandbox with no overarching theme/mission/etc." kind of games; I've played in some and enjoyed it. I guess I just don't understand the venom towards games that actually have missions/themes that might require a bit of a railroad. If it's not your cup of tea; cool...but why waste time hating that style and even more; why try to put-down module series built around that idea...while at the same time wanting to use them. Adapt what you will from whatever source you like...afterall, we're talking about a game built around imaganation.....no need to bemoan something that doesn't fit your style. Make it fit; or move on to something that allready does. Just my two coppers...and sorry for the threadjack! p.s. Thanks for seeing that GDQ; A1-4; etc., etc. also have "railroads" in them but don't get the same kind of treatment as DL 1-14! |
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Post by waysoftheearth on Jul 2, 2012 18:54:38 GMT -6
Can I ask a question, then? If the players don't know that their having done X is irrelevant to the outcome of Y, what's the harm in X having no effect on Y? In other words, if the illusion of player choice is maintained, in what way is the players' experience compromised? (On the other hand, I can certainly see how your DMing experience would be made more bland by a "Y happens anyway" situation.) It's a good point Zeraser, and I guess it ultimately comes down to the expectations of each individual group. Some groups might enjoy a (more-or-less) "scripted ride". Other groups might enjoy a more sandbox approach. Both approaches can be fun and each has its place. However, one of the features of "old school" style gaming is the open sandbox approach. Players of old school games might therefore be more inclined to expect to be able to go off the rails and do anything at all. For example, they might want to join the evil empire. Or focus all their energy on building a mighty fortress. Or training up an elite troop of tunneling fighters. Or creating an army of golems. Anything is possible in the sandbox style game, and some players thrive on it. |
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zeraser
Level 4 Theurgist
Posts: 184
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Post by zeraser on Jul 3, 2012 16:31:44 GMT -6
Players of old school games might therefore be more inclined to expect to be able to go off the rails and do anything at all.
I'm very sympathetic to this way of playing—and a rules-light context (like OD&D!) where lots of world content (dungeons, monsters, etc.) can be ginned up real quick allows for it. I guess what I'm asking is whether it would be possible to prosecute a totally railroady campaign whereby the players never know they're on the railroad, having no reason not to believe that their decisions aren't leading inexorably to a predestined conclusion.
I think it would take a lot of thinking on one's feet from the DM.
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Post by waysoftheearth on Jul 3, 2012 17:52:20 GMT -6
I guess what I'm asking is whether it would be possible to prosecute a totally railroady campaign whereby the players never know they're on the railroad, having no reason not to believe that their decisions aren't leading inexorably to a predestined conclusion. It's an interesting premise and worth some thinking time, for sure. I don't have "the" answer, but I suspect it depends a lot on how far the players push the envelope. If their activities are mostly in line with the scripted story, it should be possible. If their activities are completely left field, it will probably be more difficult. |
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Post by aher on Jul 16, 2012 2:36:36 GMT -6
I'm looking for strong examples of Dragon lore in print or other media before Dragonlance was published, here is what I have so far: [...] Too, too many examples of dragon lore prior to "Dragons of Autumn Twilight (1984)" and "DL 1 Dragons of Despair (1984)". Wikipedia maintains these wonderful lists: Here are some of my personal favorites: Zeus vs Typhon. Zeus throws Mt. Etna on top of Typhon, trapping him in Tarturus. Typhon is the source of volcanic eruptions at Mt Etna. I believe Typhon shows up in Roger Zelazny's "Creatures of Light and Darkness (1969)." Typhon is also mentioned in Dante Alighieri's "Inferno", frozen onto the rings outside of Hell's Circle of Treachery. One thing to note here is that the offspring of dragons aren't necessarily what we'd normally think of as dragons. In Greek mythology, the dragons Typhon and Echidna are the father and mother of all monsters. Their offspring are Orthus, the Sphinx, the Nemean Lion, Cerebus, Ladon, the Lernean Hydra, and the Chimera. Apollo vs Python. Note that "Python" is an anagram of Typhon. "Pythia," AKA the Oracle of Delphi, was the Dragon's Hoard. After liberating her from Python, Apollo spoke to his followers through her. Here's some other famous dragons and dragon slayers: - Jason and the Argonauts vs the dragon guarding the Golden Fleece
- Hercules vs Ladon (and also the Lernean Hydra)
- Vritra vs Indra
- Thor vs Jörmungand (the Midgard Serpent)
- Tiamat vs Marduk
- YHWH vs Leviathan (in the Book of Job, Psalm 73, the Babylonian Talmud Baba Bathra 74b, the Book of Enoch)
Yes, dragons are mentioned in the Bible, starting in chapter one: Genesis 1:21And God created the tanninim (="dragons", but often translated "great sea-monsters"), and every living creature that creepeth, wherewith the waters swarmed, after its kind, and every winged fowl after its kind; and God saw that it was good. Rashi comments: "God created the great sea monsters - taninim. According to legend this refers to the Leviathan and its mate. God created a male and female Leviathan, then killed the female and salted it for the righteous, for if the Leviathans were to procreate the world could not stand before them." Note that our word "dragon" comes from the Greek word "δράκων" or "drakon" which means "serpent, giant seafish." So there is a strong connection between dragons and sea monsters in ancient literature: Python, Jörmungand, Leviathan were all at one time considered dragons, but would now commonly get classified merely as sea serpents. In the original Greek, there's no real distinction. In the Bible, Leviathan is identified figuratively with the primeval sea (Job 3:8, Psalms 74:13). Later, in apocalyptic literature (the Book of Enoch) Leviathan is equated with the Devil. The Book of Revelation, chapter 12, describes the fight between Michael and the Great Red Dragon: 1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.In college I read Thomas Harris's "Red Dragon" (1981). In it, the antagonist, a serial killer named Francis Dolarhyde, attempts to stop the dragon's (Satan's) "possession" of him. He goes to the Brooklyn Museum, knocks a museum secretary unconscious, and eats the original of William Blake's watercolor of "The Great Red Dragon and the Woman Clothed by the Sun." Actually, Blake painted four different watercolors depicting scenes from this passage. You should definitely take a look at them. A unique idea of how a dragon might look:  Book 4 of Milton's "Paradise Lost" also recounts this passage from Revelations: O For that warning voice, which he who saw
Th' Apocalyps, heard cry in Heaven aloud,
Then when the Dragon, put to second rout,
Came furious down to be reveng'd on men,
Wo to the inhabitants on Earth!
In the Babylonian Talmud Baba Bathra 74b it is told that the Leviathan will be slain and its flesh served as a feast to the righteous in the World to Come, and its skin used to cover the tent where the banquet will take place. In later Christian writings, Leviathan is listed as one of the seven princes of Hell (equated with the deadly sin of envy) and its gatekeeper (i.e., the Hellmouth). I could go on, and on, and on about Nathan of Gaza's Kabbalistic "Treatise on Dragons" ("Derush ha-Tanninim") written in 1666 to help explain and justify Shabbatai Zvi's apostasy. This work lays out an entire cosmogenesis that I found useful in creating a "Call of Cthulhu" campaign I ran back around 2003. Notice another trend in the literature listed so far: Only gods or demigods are tough enough to combat dragons. And humanity would have ceased to exist, unless God did us humans the favor of killing (or maybe just temporarily trapping) the biggest, fiercest dragon(s). St. George slaying the dragon seems to break this trend (because he's not a god or demigod), but he had Christ on his side. Beowulf, a mere mortal, fights a dragon and gets mortally wounded. Alone, he's not capable of defeating a dragon, but with help he does overcome it, together with Wiglaf. Here's some quotes from Beowulf's fight: 2669 After those words the wrathful wyrm came,
Æfter ðám wordum wyrm yrre cwóm
...
2689 the fierce fire-drake enmity in mind,
frécne fýrdraca faéhða gemyndig·
J.R.R. Tolkien wrote: "dragons, real dragons, essential both to the machinery and the ideas of a poem or tale, are actually rare. In northern literature there are only two that are significant .... we have but the dragon of the Völsungs, Fáfnir, and Beowulf's bane." Here is J.R. Skelton's 1908 painting of Beowulf fighting the dragon:  In the Anglo-Saxon Vercelli Homilies (4:46-8) Satan is likened to a dragon swallowing the d**ned: ne cumaþ þa næfre of þæra wyrma seaðe & of þæs dracan ceolan þe is Satan nemned.
[they] never come out of the pit of snakes and of the throat of the dragon which is called Satan.
(Quoted from: "Infernal imagery in Anglo-Saxon charters", p. 85, Petra Hofmann's Ph.D. thesis.)
Alan Moore's "Watchmen" uses this Biblical quote as the closing quote for Chapter VII: "I am a brother to dragons, and a companion to owls. My skin is black upon me, and my bones are burned with heat." (Job 30:29-30)
(A warning: Some translations of the Bible translate "dragon" as "jackal" or "crocodile.") I've heard good things about Calvert Watkins' book "How to Kill a Dragon: Aspects of Indo-European Poetics," but I have not read it. It purports to give a formula (an Ur-myth or grammar) that distills the essence of all ancient dragon tales. Supposedly, the Greek word drakon comes from an earlier, Proto-Indo-European word "derkesthai" which means "to see clearly" or "the one with the deadly glance." Deadly glance then would seem to relate dragons to basilisks. So maybe we should throw "Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets" into this list(?). Here's a few off-the-wall references: "Puff the Magic Dragon" was a 1959 poem by Leonard Lipton, turned into a hit 1963 song by Peter, Paul and Mary (#2 on the Billboard Charts), a 1978 TV show nominated for a primetime emmy, and a 2007 kid's book. I always thought it was a metaphor for smoking marijuana ("Puff the Magic"..."Draggin'"), but the authors vehemently deny this. The Urban Dictionary defines "riding the dragon" as getting high on heroin. Princeton physics professor Archibald Wheeler described quantum uncertainty as " the great smoky dragon." Lastly, who could leave out mention of "A Song of Ice and Fire" (1996-?), even though it's post-Dragonlance?! Lots of material here and here, including information about specific dragons like Balerion. |
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Post by Finarvyn on Feb 8, 2015 7:04:24 GMT -6
Okay, casting "necro" on this thread because I posted a "help with Dragonlance campaign" thread on the OD&D Campaign Board and was redirected back to this board. (1) Did WyrmSpear ever get developed? Or did anyone end up running a "S&S DL" instead of high fantasy? (2) Looks like most of the DL modules are selling at $10 or more on e-bay, which is probably more than I want to spend since there are so many in the series. What is the best resource for me to find stats for draconians, stats for the PCs & NPCs, or whatever else would be useful to run a DL-style campaign? Any ideas? |
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18 Spears
BANNED
Yeah ... Spear This Ya' Freak!
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Post by 18 Spears on Feb 8, 2015 7:19:48 GMT -6
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Post by derv on Feb 8, 2015 7:24:05 GMT -6
Sorry, I'm not a Dragonlance guy, but you did raise a question for me. When and why did this OD&D Campaign Board get started? I knew nothing about it. I guess I'll look over the Announcements or General Discussion section. |
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Post by tetramorph on Feb 8, 2015 12:54:50 GMT -6
derv, @theperilousdreamer only very recently started the campaign board. He has been trying to get it started slowly and strongly before issuing a big invite. Please expect a general announcement in the near future. And please, anyone reading this, come on over and check out the site and join up and post if interested! We would love to have you all!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 8, 2015 14:37:04 GMT -6
derv, @theperilousdreamer only very recently started the campaign board. He has been trying to get it started slowly and strongly before issuing a big invite. Please expect a general announcement in the near future. And please, anyone reading this, come on over and check out the site and join up and post if interested! We would love to have you all! Hi all, I have been out of town for most of the weekend and will be making a general announcement soon. I also want to make it clear the new forum is not in competition with this forum, it will be a synergistic relationship. Halenar PS: Back to this thread, no derailment intended. Please hold any comments or questions for the announcement thread to be posted soon. |
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Post by Finarvyn on Feb 8, 2015 17:09:45 GMT -6
derv, @theperilousdreamer only very recently started the campaign board. He has been trying to get it started slowly and strongly before issuing a big invite. Please expect a general announcement in the near future. My error. I thought it had already been made public. I hadn't intended to steal Perilous Dreamer's thunder.  |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 8, 2015 18:31:39 GMT -6
derv, @theperilousdreamer only very recently started the campaign board. He has been trying to get it started slowly and strongly before issuing a big invite. Please expect a general announcement in the near future. My error. I thought it had already been made public. I hadn't intended to steal Perilous Dreamer's thunder. Not to worry! All is well! We are cool!  |
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Post by xerxez on Feb 9, 2015 14:38:46 GMT -6
Scrootch-- how interesting. I have read only one DL book ever so no help there but I noticed that you mentioned Dragonslayer as a source and in the event you have not yet read it I highly recommend the novelization of the film. The author's name escapes me now but I found the book a most excellent read, both as to writing (once I got through the first chapter) and as touching it's further in depth fleshing out of dragon lore, magic, and the movie characters.
Another source from the oddities of the RPG world is Dragonraid, a Christian RPG with a very detailed cosmology of dragons and a Dragon Age. I find the concept of the Shadow Lands and the way that the intelligent and magical dragons rule mankind though their humanoid and human proxies there a rich vein of campaign material. Filleted of its fundamental moralism, there are some great draconian motifs .left to adorn a very cool dragon based campaign.
Good luck and thanks for starting this thread cause I'm getting inspired!
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Post by Scott Anderson on Feb 9, 2015 15:50:51 GMT -6
The dungeons, maps and floor plans made for the DL modules are awesome as-is or to mine for ideas.
The idea that your players have to basically pantomime through stories already written, which is ubiquitous in the modules, is an atrocity.
Definitely pick all these up. And don't read them straight through. Just use the bits and pieces.
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jasmith
Level 5 Thaumaturgist
Posts: 316
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Post by jasmith on Feb 9, 2015 21:02:46 GMT -6
The Dragonlance Adventures AD&D hardcover.  |
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jasmith
Level 5 Thaumaturgist
Posts: 316
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Post by jasmith on Feb 9, 2015 21:05:59 GMT -6
Scrootch-- how interesting. I have read only one DL book ever so no help there but I noticed that you mentioned Dragonslayer as a source and in the event you have not yet read it I highly recommend the novelization of the film. The author's name escapes me now but I found the book a most excellent read, both as to writing (once I got through the first chapter) and as touching it's further in depth fleshing out of dragon lore, magic, and the movie characters. Wayland Drew. I ran across my copy yesterday, while unpacking some boxes. I've never read it, so thanks for the recommendation. |
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Post by xerxez on Feb 10, 2015 0:00:16 GMT -6
[/quote]Wayland Drew. I ran across my copy yesterday, while unpacking some boxes. I've never read it, so thanks for the recommendation. [/quote] That was it! I found it a tad hard to get into in the early pages but once the dialogue begins from there it is really a great read. It lets you in the dragon's head in places, too, and one thing this author is good at is writing from different points of view. I kind of got a idea in it like, dragons aren't necessarily evil, they are just dragons. |
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Post by Falconer on Feb 11, 2015 14:56:28 GMT -6
Dragonlance Adventures is very problematic. I would stick with the original 14 modules. Krynn as presented in the original modules is very much compatible with base AD&D without adding any rules at all (if anything, it has more of an BD&D sensibility); Dragonlance Adventures is a bloated mess that takes into account all of UA, DSG, WSG, and many proto-2e elements (like specialist mages and priestly spheres) plus a ton of its own new rules (for example, canning many of the AD&D classes and replacing them with broken DL-specific ones). The result is something that then less resembles the iconic Krynn of the original 14 modules (and of course the 6 novels). I’m afraid there is no good replacement for getting all 14 original modules (actually there are only 13 because #11 is a board game). If there is some specific area of Krynn you want to adventure in, or if you want some ideas, I can help suggest which ones to get. DL14 has the stats for most of the iconic monsters. But definitely don’t miss Jeff Grubb’s OD&D writeup of the Krynnish pantheon, it’s totally sweet!
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Post by havard on Feb 20, 2015 19:05:39 GMT -6
Dragonlance is a great setting. We never played the modules. Our group never really cared much for published modules anyway. We always liked to make our own adventures. What is more fun than to draw your own dungeons? We read the novels and used those along with Dragonlance Adventures as a starting point for a sandbox campaign. Kender, Tinker Gnomes and Gully Dwarves were great fun. The most interesting Dragonlance race though are the Minotaurs.
I think the conflict between the Good and Evil Dragonarmies are quite interesting. If you read the novels, you will also notice that the authors go to a length to make the "Evil" characters sympathetic. If you are looking for shades of grey, they are actually there, just hidden under labels that do not make sense in the common sensical way.
-Havard
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Post by Deleted on Feb 21, 2015 2:21:39 GMT -6
Yeah, DL was our Greyhawk, back in the day, too. With the old "Tales of the Lance" box,
you could sandbox as good as with any other of the early 2e settings, and it was pretty glorious.
About the original DL modules, I personally never really cared, because everybody I played with already knew the content of the novels, anyway.
2e later featured Taladas, and a few Post-WotL modules that were pretty nice, and with that, you could, well, really do your thing.
Now, as to the LD modules themselves, they got a pretty sweet, and considerably less railroady rewrite by Cam Banks, back when MWP was holding a license for DL, in 2007-08.
Honestly, if I wanted to run a DL campaign today, I'd probably simply start with those (rather rare) modules, and then go on from there.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 11, 2015 13:14:36 GMT -6
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Post by cooper on Jun 3, 2015 17:51:22 GMT -6
Äi äi~!
Great thread. Dragon lance is great. Built around the neoplatonic school and the idea that stars and planets were deities including the moon or (moons) and all subservient to a higher "all-father" God combined with a Manichean Philosophy of good versus evil. One interesting Facet about dragons that I recently read was that early Christian astrologers sometimes called comets dragons and it's possible that this is how the giant snake "dragon" the Greeks referred to (meaning giant pythons of India) transformed into the flying firebreathing dragon with apocalyptical importation. So dragon could very well be Cthulhu type monsters if a campaign wanted to go that direction.
The Greeks were pretty particular about what Basilisk was. Born of a roosters egg that had been sent up on by a toad. Born of a roosters egg that had been sat upon by a toad Although the name itself Dragon as you mentioned meaning the one with the deadly glance does apply to snakes as they were often thought to mesmerize their prey. interestingly tolkiens dragons have a mesmerizing gaze as well.
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