Make Henchmen and Hirelings matter !

[geordieracer]

A plea to adventure designers. or a rant, whatever

I've just been skimming through OSR modules in my FLGS and it's plain to see that HENCHMEN DON'T MATTER - the games totally rely on a balanced group of PCs.
- provisions and treasure can be carried easily.
- there is no outside expertise/brute force etc required.

I wish for an alternative to this mindset where the PCs are like the Beatles - ' they can do everything given enough levels'.

The dealing-with-henchmen is the only social interaction some PCs engage in within the dungeon - so make it count if all the henchmen have died -who's to help ?

That gameplay example in LotFP nails it goodstyle - but I'd love to see it brought out more into adventures -especially low-level ones.

Even High-level modules could do with a few bearers/experts tagging along - with normal man stats they'd be hard to protect but that happens in warfare - the usually self-reliant professional warrior may have someone to lead through the dark/carnage/maelstrom.

I'd love to see a module where the implicit manifesto is You aint gonna cross that chasm, lift that stature or reforge that sword+1 without help.

Does such an adventure already exist ?

[tavis]

In running megadungeons at conventions (Blackmoor Dungeon at Gen Con and Castle Zagyg & Mad Archmage at Fal-Con), two less-visible things that a module can do to make henchmen more useful are:

- be lethal so that henchmen can take killing blows that would otherwise have felled a PC, and also serve as replacement characters for those who lose their original PC. Dealing with henchmen only at the point of their (or your) death may seem kind of a rudimentary social interaction, but I've talked about why I find this awesome over at the Mule Abides.

- give lots of treasure in coin form, especially less-valuable types of coins. Part of why I like to use the grossly outsized coins implied by OD&D is that it makes and encumbrance an important strategic consideration & one where henchmen can really be valuable. (The other part is that it tickles me to say that the gods laid down the never-seen-in-our-own-archaic-history system of rationalized coin conversion, and set the coin weights to something that seemed normal for their own godly use but is fist-sized for mere mortals.) At Fal-Con I also saw henchmen become very important in hauling out the body of a paralyzed PC.

[18 Spears]

Oct 19, 2010 7:35:55 GMT -6 @geordieracer said:

Does such an adventure already exist ?

Men-at-Arms sure come in handy for the final battle in "The Village of Hommlet". I think is pretty tough to win the fight without them if you'uns are playing with the recommended levels & numbers of characters.

[makofan]

I started a S&W Core Rules with House Rules campaign last night with three kids and their Dad (the Dad is an experienced player). The created a Dwarf fighter, Halfling Fighter, Elf Fighter, and Human Magic-User. What is neat is that they hired a non-combatant torch bearer, and three red-shirt soldiers. One red-shirt got his throat ripped out by giant rats, and another fell in a pit and cracked his skull open, but the third one and the torch-bearer survived. It was interesting how well protected they kept the torch nearer, as he was carrying most of their miscellaneous supplies. If he ran away or fell in a pit, they knew they would be in big trouble.

[waysoftheearth]

I like to make a point of how bulky x many thousand copper and silver coins are, but it does depend on how many hands the party in question has. There aren't too many low level treasure hoards that a company of 15 fighting Men can't haul overland for themselves, for example, but expertise is another thing entirely.

Having a guide to locate those nearby ruins is more or less essential for foreigners to these parts, and an interpreter could be handy if ancient or foreign languages ever come into play. The sign that reads "This way to your doom" over the door on the left doesn't have to be graven in the common tongue!

A healer or physician could prove invaluable in the event of poisoning or disease. Torch bearers are a staple (even though hireling are not usually willing to enter dungeons!), and if you use the "shields will be splintered" rules, then a shield bearer or two is a virtual must for every party.

I'm sure there are lots of other ways in which an enterprising referee can make hirelings feel useful too!

[coffee]

I think it's kind of up to the players themselves.

In the AD&D game I'm in, I just made 4th level -- highest in the party. And now it's time to get me some henchmen (or at least one). That way, when I'm 9th level (if I get that far), the henchmen will be up around 5th - 8th. And they'll have been helping out along the way.

As far as hirelings, I've never had any that would come into a dungeon, except men-at-arms (and that was only in Kesher's game...)

[tombowings]

I'm going to be starting a Lost City campaign with a few house mates in a few months and planning on giving them a number of henchman based on the character's charisma.

3-6 = 3 in 6 chance of 1
7-13 = 1
13-15 = 2
16 = 1 in 6 chance of 3; otherwise 2
17 = 2 in 6 chance of 3; otherwise 2
18 = 3 in 6 chance of 3; otherwise 2.

Rather that trying to boost up the combat capabilities of the group, these henchman will be ready fodder for new PCs after character deaths. That's one of the most important parts of henchman/hirelings, in my opinion.

[geordieracer]

Oct 19, 2010 23:00:42 GMT -6 coffee said:

I think it's kind of up to the players themselves.

That's outrageous

Jason without the Argonauts, Sinbad the crewless.

Don't let the party become the A-Team, down with self-sufficiency!

[coffee]

Not outrageous, merely incomplete.

I'm saying, it should be up to the players, not the DM, to WANT henchmen (and hirelings), to want to GET henchmen (and hirelings) and to badger the DM until they GET the henchmen (and hirelings) they want.

I think henchmen (and hirelings) should be a part of every game, but it's up to the players to demand their rights to have them.

The DM has enough on his plate. He shouldn't be forcing henchmen (and hirelings) on players who are too silly to want them (and, if he does, they'll be sure to think it's a bad thing in some way.)


Sorry for the confusion.

[geordieracer]

Oct 22, 2010 10:17:36 GMT -6 coffee said:

Not outrageous, merely incomplete.

I'm saying, it should be up to the players, not the DM, to WANT henchmen (and hirelings), to want to GET henchmen (and hirelings) and to badger the DM until they GET the henchmen (and hirelings) they want.

I think henchmen (and hirelings) should be a part of every game, but it's up to the players to demand their rights to have them.

The DM has enough on his plate. He shouldn't be forcing henchmen (and hirelings) on players who are too silly to want them (and, if he does, they'll be sure to think it's a bad thing in some way.)


Sorry for the confusion.

No probs, I'm easily confused, usually by people waving shiny paper or casting reflections on walls.

But I don't think having situations where assistance is probably vital to success is forcing hirelings on players - it's just the opposite of what is happening now with new adventure modules where it's about keeping the little anti-social clique separate from society, making it easy for them*.

Resource management can be about managing people as much as provisions and possessions.

[sd]

Enforcement of the encumbrance rules, movement rates, keeping track of who's holding light sources, mapping, wandering monsters, and so on tend to encourage PCs to hire retainers. If you're waving a 10' pole about, or meticulously mapping the dimensions of corridors and rooms, or carrying a large sack of gold coins, you're not holding a weapon or a shield. You're certainly not moving at an acceptable rate for efficient exploration while avoiding the depredations of penurious and possibly poisonous vermin.

If the rules are enforced, I think it quickly becomes evident that a few gold pieces and the odd fractional treasure share are more than worth it for the additional free hands and strong toting shoulders offered by henchmen and hirelings.

I also frequently argue that gathering a small entourage of henchmen and hirelings is the OD&D solution to the "my character doesn't have many things he can do" lament. If you're playing a Fighting Man, you'll probably seek to hire a spellcaster or thief at some point. Eventually, instead of playing one guy with a half-dozen cool options, you're playing a half-dozen guys with a cool option or two each. Different strokes.

[coffee]

Oct 24, 2010 18:38:35 GMT -6 sd said:

I also frequently argue that gathering a small entourage of henchmen and hirelings is the OD&D solution to the "my character doesn't have many things he can do" lament. If you're playing a Fighting Man, you'll probably seek to hire a spellcaster or thief at some point. Eventually, instead of playing one guy with a half-dozen cool options, you're playing a half-dozen guys with a cool option or two each. Different strokes.

Absolutely!

This is the specific argument I'm going to make to my fellow players in the AD&D game I'm in. We have some that stand around because "they can't do anything". This will help.

Have an exalt for this insight!

[dicebro]

Delta just revived the question about Henchmen on his blog at: deltasdnd.blogspot.com/2021/02/when-are-henchmen-appropriate-on.html. I would like to discuss this too. In Od&d there is a maximum of “unusual hirelings” a character may acquire. I’m thinking that an usual hireling (no maximum) might become a henchman (unusual) if they are able to “pass” a minimum number of loyalty rolls under appropriate situations.

It seems that hirelings defined as limited by charisma are separate from mercenaries and men-at-arms.  They are “unusual” in the sense that they are special. But how special do they need to be?  That is left for the referee to decide. 

The limited number of unusual hirelings include leveled “fighters, magic-users and clerics”.  There is no mention of a “henchman” in the 3 LBBs as far as I can tell.  It seems that “henchman” is just a term anyone could use to describe a follower that gets a job done. E.g. “Lord Marduk sent his evil henchmen to sack the village.”  

What do you think?

[retrorob]

I guess "Unusual Hirelings" in OD&D are Fighters, Clerics and Magic-Users (including Elves & Dwarves). "Usual" are blacksmith, hunter, sage, "normal" soldiers (not F-M/W really) etc., all listed in vol. III. It's more like Charlemagne, who had 12 paladins, so his Charisma was 18, right?

Who are hirelings and henchmen? Every judge has to decide on his/her own. There is a difference between a retainer (like in germanic societies during migration period/early middle ages), a vassal, and a simply sword-for-hire.

Another question - can hirelings have their own hirelings?

[Punkrabbitt]

I have difficulty wrapping my head around this newfangled way of playing the game that seems to have started with 2nd edition involves NOT everyone hiring a half dozen bodyguards to take on an exciting underground sightseeing tour to meet interesting people, kill them, and take their stuff. It made low-level survival much more likely. Can you imagine just the player characters trying to fight a group of goblins at 1st level?

[howandwhy99]

How we play it:
Henchman are a campaign-length finite number of potential sidekicks (or toadies) of power who level up beside your PC taking some of the XP. They can be intelligent monsters or PC classed humans / demihumans and may be pupils (for class training), but not necessarily. They start out with a positive relationship with the PC, but are also under their care and guidance. In general, you cannot leave your henchmen behind.

Hirelings are any and all paid workers, PC or NPC classed, gaining 50% portions of XP in group rewards. They may be working maliciously against the PC, relationships run the gamut. Boarding and ALL other details are worked out during hiring negotiations. Hireling may not travel with the PC, like a private blacksmith at their manor.

Followers may be gained through play or by class levels. These are usually 0-level NPCs who revere the PC and don't take part in or are capable at adventuring. IME, they are like an entourage which needs maintaining depending on their needs.

Associates are anyone and everyone else who commonly works with the PCs. This usually means NPCs adventuring alongside PCs, getting a full portion of XP if they have class levels. They are not paid nor have any special allegiances. They can just be friends, acquaintances, higher level allies, etc. The local lord may be an acquaintance.

For game play purposes, these are player decisions. How much help do we want? How much are we willing to pay? How much expected treasure must be split? What's the expected XP division with all these people?? Not to mention logistics and how NPCs get along with other NPCs.

[bobjester0e]

Good timing for this thread rez!

I have 1 player running 4 characters in Lost City (now 3 because Aleena the Cleric died right off the bat by the fire beetles in Room 6...) and he asked me if there is a chance to hire some NPCs to fill up the party, and I always allow the chances of hiring NPCs.

So much good info in delta's blog. I believe he's blogged about henchmen before years ago, which got me motivated with making NPCs more attractive to my players.

One blog reply "-Put "Henchman" on the equipment list right along with other standard dungeon gear." - Baquies

and Delta's "Ads For Hire" added to (his) OD&D equipment list.

There are many pros & cons to hirelings, henchmen & followers, and most of my players think hiring any is too much of a hassle, as far as managing them - another list of stats & equipment, paying them, the care & healing of them, and the extra noise, space and light they shed in the dungeon. Plus, when they get killed, its a waste of invested gold.

But I believe that my players aren't putting henchmen & hirelings in the right frame; either they don't trust NPCs (back-stabbing the party is a time-honored NPC ploy going back to Saltmarsh and the Keep on the Borderlands!) or don't believe they have the hps and skills to survive - or somehow make the party more open to surprise attacks, etc - because they aren't controlled directly by the players (because the players don't want to control them) as another character besides their own "Main" character.

I am one of the only players in my modern group of 5e D&D players that is willing to play more than one character, and I have played up to 5 characters at one time. (I was the only one who showed up, so I had to create my own party.) None of the other players would even consider that.

What gives?

Anyhoo, I've mentioned the cons of hiring NPCs above, but what about the pros?

-Light-bearers to see in the dark and free up your weapon hands. (it seems that all 5e characters have nightvision and never need light according to their interpretation of the rules!)
-Pack-bearers to lug all that equipment around, freeing up the PC to fight & move more effectively, AND the more pack-bearers you have, the more treasure you get to haul out of the dungeon!
-Watching the horses in camp. (At one point, my players wouldn't even buy horses because their DM always had a wandering monster come by and eat them while the party was in the dungeon, so it was a wasted investment - but I contend that hiring a handful of men-at-arms to guard the camp is necessary to chase off those wandering monsters - at least its a little bit of deterrent, but ass always - never foolproof!)
-They die too easy. Honestly. In 0e, regular player characters can die too easily. /facepalm. This is the biggest problem, IMO, and I don't know how to effectively address this aside from telling the players to act like a good employer, even if you don't have any experience. Order your NPCs to do things to defend themselves?

Go Gladiator Maximus on them! LOL

Have the NPCs shore up camp with Romanesque defenses, like spikes and palisades; have the dungeoneer NPCs march in defensive formation in the center or rear of the party (whichever is safest); arm them with tower shields & spears and have them "turtle-up" during attacks; be willing to manage your NPCs to make victory less risky.

There isn't much you can do to keep a large party of PCs & NPCs quiet enough to avoid announcing their presence to monsters in the dungeon, and it opens your party up to more surprise attacks, but I have always felt that this is part of the game that doesn't get enough representation in actual play - weighing risk vs reward, and that is partly the DMs fault when the risks always outweigh the reward.

[bobjester0e]

XP division was another sticky subject with my players. They'd rather have ALL the earned XP for themselves and not have any NPCs (that were capable of earning XP in PC class levels) around to take a chunk of it with them when they could die so easily.

They were more offset at the XP division than treasure, since they could just pay the NPCs the minimum - and take it off their corpses after they die.

[howandwhy99]

Covering other class niches not represented in the PC party is IMO the most basic Hireling hire. No Fighters? Get some Men-at-Arms. Plan out your Marching Order/combat strategies. No Clerics? Get one. No M-Us? One should do or just avoid messing with magics. No Thief? Good for you.

I agree Henchman and Hirelings should be part of the game. It is a game unto itself, very situational. Not an always or never decision.

Feb 21, 2021 10:49:43 GMT -6 bobjester0e said:

They were more offset at the XP division than treasure, since they could just pay the NPCs the minimum - and take it off their corpses after they die.

That should work wonders for Loyalty.

[bobjester0e]

Feb 21, 2021 11:08:07 GMT -6 howandwhy99 said:

Covering other class niches not represented in the PC party is IMO the most basic Hireling hire. No Fighters? Get some Men-at-Arms. Plan out your Marching Order/combat strategies. No Clerics? Get one. No M-Us? One should do or just avoid messing with magics. No Thief? Good for you.

I agree Henchman and Hirelings should be part of the game. It is a game unto itself, very situational. Not an always or never decision.

Feb 21, 2021 10:49:43 GMT -6 bobjester0e said:

They were more offset at the XP division than treasure, since they could just pay the NPCs the minimum - and take it off their corpses after they die.

That should work wonders for Loyalty.

LOL. Since they never seek NPCs to hire, there were no Loyalty rolls made.

This will change with my current player. He asked me specifically about hiring NPCs since he's the only player. I am open to expanding possibilities and use of any rules between 0e, BX, BECMI and AD&D to provide the best options and balance of rules.