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Post by Finarvyn on Jun 22, 2007 19:25:12 GMT -6
In addition to the existance of magic swords on the treasure tables, there are extensive rules for swords starting on page 27 of Monsters & Treasure.
* Swords have alignment.
* Swords have Intelligence and Ego.
* Swords potentially have primary powers and extraordinary abilities.
* Swords can try to take over their owners.
Actually, these rules fill up 4 pages out of 40, which is a whopping 10% of the booklet! (Around 20% of the "Treasures" half of the book!) That's pretty significant.
Does anyone use these rules?
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Post by crimhthanthegreat on Jun 25, 2007 21:45:53 GMT -6
Yes, we do. I would do even more with it, since I think intelligent swords are a lot of fun. But you don't want more than one or two max in the game at a time, because it does put a lot of extra work on the ref. I prefer no more than one in the game at a time. It really burns a player when a sword take him over. But player want one just the same. ;D
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Post by Deleted on Jul 12, 2007 5:50:40 GMT -6
Yes, we ran these rules when I started playing and I will use them if I can find some players and get a game going.
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Post by calithena on Jul 12, 2007 11:16:37 GMT -6
The other thing that's interesting about magic swords in OD&D is they don't get a damage bonus. A +3 spear has +3 to hit and +3 damage, but a +3 sword only gets +3 to hit. But, a +1 sword, +3 vs. trolls gets +1 to hit and +0 damage normally, but +3 to hit and +3 damage vs trolls!
Bows also only get the hit bonus. Weird!
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Post by coffee on Jul 12, 2007 13:10:30 GMT -6
The other thing that's interesting about magic swords in OD&D is they don't get a damage bonus. A +3 spear has +3 to hit and +3 damage, but a +3 sword only gets +3 to hit. But, a +1 sword, +3 vs. trolls gets +1 to hit and +0 damage normally, but +3 to hit and +3 damage vs trolls! Bows also only get the hit bonus. Weird! It gets even weirder when you go back to the Monsters section. Under elves it says: "Elves armed with magical weapons will add one pip to dice rolled to determine damage, i.e. when a hit is scored the possible number of damage points will be 2-7 per die." So I guess even unintelligent swords can tell what race you are! |
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Post by robertsconley on Jul 12, 2007 13:19:23 GMT -6
So I guess even unintelligent swords can tell what race you are! Think of it as the elves themselves enhancing the magic of the sword. It is very much in the spirit of Tolkien. It not so much a specific spell but part of the elves magical aura. |
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Post by foster1941 on Jul 12, 2007 13:48:40 GMT -6
So I guess even unintelligent swords can tell what race you are! Note that per Vol. II all magic swords are intelligent and have alignment, it's just that the dumber ones (Int 6-) aren't able to communicate or do anything special. Also note that, at least going by the random tables, magic swords are vastly more common (4 times as common) as all other magic weapons combined (and even moreso with regard to any specific non-sword weapon -- you're 10 times more likely to find a magic sword than you are magic arrows, 20 times more likely than a magic dagger, 40 times more likely than a magic mace, spear, or war hammer, and 80 times more likely than a magic bow or axe!). Of course, going by the random tables, you're a little more than half again as likely to find an item granting 1 or more wishes (sword (1%) or ring (0.55%)) than a potion of healing (1%), so take those numbers with an appropriately-sized grain of salt...  |
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Post by coffee on Jul 12, 2007 13:52:14 GMT -6
The Tolkien part is a reasonable assumption (although Gary has stated that Tolkien had less to do with D&D than people think).
But even without getting into sources, it's a direct hold-over from Chainmail. Elves in fantasy combat used the normal combat tables, but if armed with magic weapons could use the fantasy combat table (i.e.; with a magic bow they could attempt to shoot down a dragon).
Why? Because elves are cool, that's why.
It's all a part of the groovy, funky, quirky way the rules were written. A lot of the flavor comes from this; compare it with the D20 stuff which is so tightly organized and cohesive and regimented that the sense of wonder has been entirely leached out of it.
I prefer my magic to be mysterious. I don't want it turned into a whole "if x then y, invariably" kind of thing. It's an art, not a science.
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serendipity
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Post by serendipity on Aug 5, 2007 7:00:31 GMT -6
Intelligent swords are rather like NPCs who have infiltrated the group, right? They're potentially useful but they might turn against the PCs at an awkward moment. These swords must have their own agendas; why else would they join the group? Unless they have the ability to be flighty and frivolous, it wouldn't just be for kicks. They want or need something which the PCs can provide. I think as a player, that very thought would make me veeeeery nervous.
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Post by coffee on Aug 5, 2007 23:47:17 GMT -6
And what's really fun is when you have the stock strong dumb fighter who picks up a sword that is much more intelligent than he is. Fun roleplaying for that character, and absolutely high-larious for the rest!
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Post by mahrundl on Aug 9, 2007 20:05:50 GMT -6
And what's really fun is when you have the stock strong dumb fighter who picks up a sword that is much more intelligent than he is. Fun roleplaying for that character, and absolutely high-larious for the rest! Even better when the sword is non-magical and still more intelligent than the fighter... |
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Post by coffee on Aug 10, 2007 1:04:37 GMT -6
And what's really fun is when you have the stock strong dumb fighter who picks up a sword that is much more intelligent than he is. Fun roleplaying for that character, and absolutely high-larious for the rest! Even better when the sword is non-magical and still more intelligent than the fighter... We did have a guy one time whose horse was smarter than he was... |
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serendipity
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Post by serendipity on Aug 10, 2007 17:17:38 GMT -6
I think it's very hard for most people to play a PC with low intelligence. They can play slapstick stupid, like the three stooges, but that's all. I think it would be very hard to play INT 5, for example, since the player's own natural intelligence would constantly assert itself, influencing how he interprets the scenario and how he reacts to it. Having to rein in your own ideas and ignore "obvious" clues and interpretations would be a challenge. Most players would just milk it for yuks, but I don't think unintelligent people constantly make others laugh. They seem to have an entirely different view of what is important and how the world around them works, often coming up with positions and ideas that seem bizarre to others but straightforward to them. Interestingly, so do people with extremely high intelligences.
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Post by crimhthanthegreat on Aug 12, 2007 18:23:38 GMT -6
Intelligent swords are rather like NPCs who have infiltrated the group, right? They're potentially useful but they might turn against the PCs at an awkward moment. These swords must have their own agendas; why else would they join the group? Unless they have the ability to be flighty and frivolous, it wouldn't just be for kicks. They want or need something which the PCs can provide. I think as a player, that very thought would make me veeeeery nervous. (insert long evil Ref laugh here) yes you would think it would make you veeeeeery nervous. But whenever an intelligent sword is found, there will always be one or more players who want it. |
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serendipity
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Post by serendipity on Aug 13, 2007 13:22:34 GMT -6
Oh, yes. I've never had the opportunity to have one, but I can easily see members of my group fighting over the 'privilege.' I think I'd only have one if I were tricked into it somehow. But then, I'm a stick in the mud.  |
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Post by crimhthanthegreat on Aug 13, 2007 19:36:45 GMT -6
The higher the intelligence of the sword the more likely it becomes that the sword picks the person instead of the other way around. Besides which there are innumberable ways to get even a cautious player to pick up an intelligent sword.
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Post by philotomy on Aug 9, 2008 14:26:04 GMT -6
Note that per Vol. II all magic swords are intelligent and have alignment, it's just that the dumber ones (Int 6-) aren't able to communicate or do anything special. One thing I find interesting about the Int table is the note for "Communicative Ability: None." It reads "Although the sword cannot communicate it will endow its user with the powers it has, but these will have to be discovered by the user." I think that's pretty cool. However, it seems to imply that magic swords with no communicative ability can still have powers, which doesn't seem to mesh with the table (i.e. a roll of 1-6 grants no powers). Am I missing something, there? |
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mythmere
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Post by mythmere on Aug 10, 2008 1:09:12 GMT -6
Note that per Vol. II all magic swords are intelligent and have alignment, it's just that the dumber ones (Int 6-) aren't able to communicate or do anything special. One thing I find interesting about the Int table is the note for "Communicative Ability: None." It reads "Although the sword cannot communicate it will endow its user with the powers it has, but these will have to be discovered by the user." I think that's pretty cool. However, it seems to imply that magic swords with no communicative ability can still have powers, which doesn't seem to mesh with the table (i.e. a roll of 1-6 grants no powers). Am I missing something, there? Just 'cause it ain't in the table doesn't mean you're not going to do it ... might as well have a guideline for when you do. ;D |
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Post by ffilz on Aug 11, 2008 8:43:21 GMT -6
It could be referring to the basic abilities of the sword (+1, +2 vs lizards, flaming, etc.).
It could also just be an editorial oops.
Frank
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Bard
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Post by Bard on Aug 18, 2008 9:49:39 GMT -6
Well... I once had my mage character's soul forged into a magic sword...
It was intentional, he wanted to escape a worse faith, and was a little bit crazy too...
It was fun playing it. ;D
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Post by aldarron on Nov 4, 2010 9:19:17 GMT -6
Note that per Vol. II all magic swords are intelligent and have alignment, it's just that the dumber ones (Int 6-) aren't able to communicate or do anything special. One thing I find interesting about the Int table is the note for "Communicative Ability: None." It reads "Although the sword cannot communicate it will endow its user with the powers it has, but these will have to be discovered by the user." I think that's pretty cool. However, it seems to imply that magic swords with no communicative ability can still have powers, which doesn't seem to mesh with the table (i.e. a roll of 1-6 grants no powers). Am I missing something, there? Yeah its a hold over from Arneson's draft that Gygax didn't realize didn't mesh with the way he reworked Dave's rather complicated tables. The draft doc is the "Matrix" section in First Fantasy Campaign (pp. 45-47 , 1980 printing). "Even if a Sword cannot communicate, it will endow the user with the powers listed in Section l, either automatically (such as languages) or as they are discovered such as Healing, being discovered only after a battle." |
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Post by tavis on Mar 18, 2011 20:28:04 GMT -6
When you generate a magic sword, as a final step there's a 10% chance it will have a special purpose, which sets its Intelligence and Ego both to 12. When you do this, do you then apply the effects of a 12 Intelligence (e.g. exceptional powers) or stick with the powers associated with the intelligence rolled earlier? Another way to look at this is - do all special purpose swords have exceptional powers?
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Post by aldarron on Mar 19, 2011 8:46:30 GMT -6
When you generate a magic sword, as a final step there's a 10% chance it will have a special purpose, which sets its Intelligence and Ego both to 12. When you do this, do you then apply the effects of a 12 Intelligence (e.g. exceptional powers) or stick with the powers associated with the intelligence rolled earlier? Another way to look at this is - do all special purpose swords have exceptional powers? My take is that you ignore the earlier roll, so all special purpose swords do have exceptional powers. Perhaps though, if for some reason the purpose is "fulfilled" or somehow "foiled" then maybe the intelligence/ego reverts to the earlier roll. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 21, 2011 19:14:07 GMT -6
I use the rules for Intelligent Swords and I have extended it to the Mace for Clerics and to Double Bladed Battle Axes for Dwarves.
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Post by cooper on May 24, 2011 13:35:19 GMT -6
What's interesting upon reading this section of the FFC, is that there were swords designed for magic-users (unsurprising as they could wield them in chainmail).  It looks like gary and arneson decided that staves would replace wizard swords, as arneson's magician's swords appear to have abilities similar to that of staves in d&d.  Uploaded with ImageShack.us |
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Post by kesher on May 24, 2011 14:24:32 GMT -6
Well, that's cool--I never noticed that before!
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Post by aldarron on May 25, 2011 11:24:51 GMT -6
Me either - good one coop
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arcadayn
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Post by arcadayn on Jun 12, 2011 7:07:24 GMT -6
cooper - Very interesting stuff! However, I'm having a hard time seeing the correlation between staves in OD&D and Arneson's magic sword abilities. Could you be a little more specific on how you come to that conclusion? Looking through the description of staves in M&T, I'm not seeing it.
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Post by aldarron on Jun 12, 2011 8:25:55 GMT -6
cooper - Very interesting stuff! However, I'm having a hard time seeing the correlation between staves in OD&D and Arneson's magic sword abilities. Could you be a little more specific on how you come to that conclusion? Looking through the description of staves in M&T, I'm not seeing it. Same here actually. The roll on the magic characteristcs table as shown in the excerpt is basically the OD&D roll on the "extraordinary powers" table, and the "special characteristics table" is mostly the same as the primary powers table. So not quite sure myself what Coop was referring to in regards to staffs. |
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Post by cooper on Jun 13, 2011 1:42:25 GMT -6
What I meant to say was that wizard swords in FFC use the same proto-intelligent sword chart as fighter's swords do in d&d. The two main ne plus ultra wizard staves (staff of power and staff of the magi) remind me of the wizard swords, but in staff form.
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