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Post by calithena on Apr 30, 2010 9:21:57 GMT -6
Kind of a built-in controversy question, but there you go.
I always come down to Gary Gygax and Paul Jaquays. And then I give the nod to Paul because (a) Paul has done it for more different systems, and even for computers (e.g. Quake) and (b) Gary is already 'the (co-)inventor of D&D' and so already gets credit for something more than dungeons. Plus I think in some ways Paul is better at creating dungeons which are integrated settings, although Gary could certainly do this too (Vault of the Drow, Hommlet, Keep just for starters).
Well, anyway, who do you all think deserves mention here, besides those two?
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Post by geoffrey on Apr 30, 2010 16:32:44 GMT -6
I've heard that M. A. R. Barker's dungeons outclass any other. I'd LOVE to see his massive dungeons published.
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Post by danbuter on Apr 30, 2010 17:09:16 GMT -6
Paul Jacquay
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Post by Finarvyn on Apr 30, 2010 19:04:47 GMT -6
I still have to vote for Gary. His old monochrome modules are by far my favorites of all time.
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Post by Falconer on Apr 30, 2010 21:21:51 GMT -6
Gary, for sure. Monumental output, at least half of which is immortal masterpieces. This is not to put anyone else down, but no-one comes close. The fact that he can claim this prize on top of all his other accomplishments in the genre is all the more remarkable.
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fitz
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Post by fitz on May 1, 2010 5:23:37 GMT -6
Piranesi.
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Post by calithena on May 1, 2010 10:24:37 GMT -6
Giovanni Battista? Great pictures but we need more room descriptions.
I agree that Gary had an uncanny sense of the basic elements. Stuff like T1, D1-D3, and Necropolis also shows that he can get into a wider milieu too.
Any suggestions besides Gary and Paul?
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Post by calithena on May 1, 2010 10:26:58 GMT -6
I've seen Barker's maps (one of them, easily 6' by 6' on old graph paper) for the undercity of Jakalla. There's nothing like that out there that I know of though some recent products threaten that kind of size. Pretty incredible stuff. I think that a lot of the descriptive material was kind of sketchy though. Really interesting stuff. Not ever prepared for publication or assimilation though, which I think counts here.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 1, 2010 23:04:57 GMT -6
calithena: What do you mean by sketchy? Overly concise? Too vague? I have always been curious about Barker's dungeon maps as well. Given his recommendation in EPT of 10 squares per inch and sheets of 11" x 17" graph paper I imagine his dungeons are huge! 6' X 6' !!! Sounds awesome!
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Post by Finarvyn on May 2, 2010 7:03:16 GMT -6
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Post by calithena on May 3, 2010 19:01:18 GMT -6
What I've seen of Barker's keys are pretty short. Which is fine, no reason for him to write everything out in detail when it's there already in his imagination.
Moldvay is another good choice, yes.
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Post by cyclopeatron on May 3, 2010 19:32:16 GMT -6
My vote goes for Tom Moldvay. While he didn't publish many modules, I feel like his work had a really unique character that's influenced my gaming a lot.
B4 The Lost City is my definitely my favorite D&D module. The player immersion in the decaying psychedelic Cynidician culture is so sweet, awesome, creepy, and different than anything else I've ever seen except maybe EPT. It's really a great mix of classic labyrinth exploration and cultural exploration. B4 is the only module I've seen where a group of freaks flying high on hallucinogens is on the wandering monster table.
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Post by grodog on May 5, 2010 16:24:45 GMT -6
Rob Kuntz is my top choice, followed closely by Gary and Paul.
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Post by tavis on May 5, 2010 19:15:47 GMT -6
I certainly thing you have an expert opinion, Grodog!
Would you say Maure Castle is the definitive Kuntz adventure?
Moldvay is another good call.
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Post by aldarron on May 6, 2010 5:52:00 GMT -6
Somehow I don't feel like I've read enough modules to answer. There's too many! (not a complaint ) But somebody needs to mention Zeb Cook - Slave Pits of the Undercity, tamoachan, Conan modules, desert nomad, etc. He's given us some really creative module settings and I've used a lot of them over the years.
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Post by calithena on May 6, 2010 7:15:35 GMT -6
Rob's best work is awesomely creative, it's true. Kuntz and Moldvay are both good choices for the 'pantheon' as well.
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Post by Ghul on May 6, 2010 12:01:26 GMT -6
Gary Gygax.
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Post by Finarvyn on May 7, 2010 8:31:50 GMT -6
Rob's best work is awesomely creative, it's true. Kuntz and Moldvay are both good choices for the 'pantheon' as well. I like the notion of a "pantheon" of game designers. If I have to pick one, it's Gary hands down in my opinion. If I get to pick a short list of them, the other names come into the discussion.
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Post by grodog on May 9, 2010 13:55:41 GMT -6
I certainly thing you have an expert opinion, Grodog! Thanks tavis, although there are certainly many other as-well-informed or more-well-informed ones out there, too Would you say Maure Castle is the definitive Kuntz adventure? That's a tough call, tavis: as much as I love the levels of MC, and its rich development potential in the outlined other levels as well (in the Dungeon issues; I lump WG5 + Dungeons 112, 124, 139 + Warlock's Walk/Mysterious Maure on PPP site + Oerth Journal 23), I think I give the nod to Bottle City as the quintessentially Kuntzian module (or perhaps MoZ4 Eight Kings). I also really like the Maze of Xaene series, and a number of his as-yet-unpublished projects, in particular his Lost City of the Elders/Garden of the Plantmaster, the Lovecraftian dungeon levels, and the Greyhawk City Sewers (among too many options to choose well, really). Moldvay is another good call. Definitely. I like the idea of a pantheon of designers, too! Here's my short list of it's members (in alphabetical order): Dave Cook, Gary Gygax, Paul Jaquays, Rob Kuntz, Tom Moldvay, Paul Vernon. I'm sure there are a couple of others that I'm forgetting, and that is definitely a "back in the day" list vs. noodling around who I'd add to a contemporary dungeon designers list too.
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gorebonzo
Level 2 Seer
No Honor Among Thieves
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Post by gorebonzo on May 9, 2010 14:01:54 GMT -6
Yeah. Tomb of Horrors seals the deal. I was talking to some guys I know who play 4th ed, and they're running an adaptation of the tomb. So I figured it would have had its fangs removed. Even so - five TPKs so far. That's the kind of dungeon I can get behind!
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Post by kenmeister on Sept 29, 2010 21:19:00 GMT -6
I'll go with Jaquays as well. Here I am distinguishing between the wording of the thread "dungeon designer" vs. overall module writer. Gary wins the latter. D3 despite its severely flawed plot problem, is a great module, but when you talk about a dungeon, with its twists, turns, inventiveness, secret areas, 3D scope, and integrating its history into the descriptions, it's all Jaquays.
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Post by geoffrey on Sept 30, 2010 15:57:56 GMT -6
Bob Bledsaw is certainly in the top tier.
I'm coming to think that Bob's Tegel Manor map is my single favorite dungeon map, edging out even Rob's Bottle City and Mike Carr's 1st level in B1.
I still want to see Prof. Barker's dungeons. Now there's an afternoon's project for someone with a scanner. ;D
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Post by Falconer on Sept 30, 2010 16:33:24 GMT -6
My answer is somewhat conventional (not straying far from the “official” authors of old), but anyway:
Top tier is Gary Gygax. Second tier is Bob Bledsaw, Paul Jaquays, Rob Kuntz, Tom Moldvay. Third tier is Dave Arneson, Mike Carr, Dave Cook, Allen Hammack, Tracy Hickman, Lawrence Schick.
Isn’t this thread in the wrong forum?
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Post by Finarvyn on Sept 30, 2010 18:21:47 GMT -6
Isn’t this thread in the wrong forum? I think it was in "General" for a while, but Gary's name popped up so often I think I moved it here. I can shuffle it back if you like.
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Post by scottenkainen on Feb 28, 2013 10:41:23 GMT -6
I just discovered this thread and what an interesting take on the "favorite module" discussion!
I would go -
Top tier - Gary Gygax alone (7 of my 15 favorite modules, all by Gary) Second tier - Tom Moldvay and Tracy Hickman Third tier - Allen Hammack, Doug Niles, Frank Mentzer, David Cook, Harold Johnson
~Scott "-enkainen" Casper
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Post by kent on Feb 28, 2013 12:19:04 GMT -6
Jaquays and Gygax were the masters of the dungeon and if anything had too strong an influence on those who followed who explored the concept.
It is hard to separate them as Jaquays had the edge on mapwork and Gygax in content, though neither is other than first rank in each aspect. For example, it doesn't look much at first glance but the structure of the ice caverns of G2 is remarkable.
It is a shame we can't study Barker's minimally keyed gigantic dungeons as it sounds like he could have given rise to a different school of thought on their design.
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Post by talysman on Feb 28, 2013 12:36:30 GMT -6
I'm going to be different and say top tier for map design is Dyson Logos and top tier for content is James Raggi.
I haven't actually seen a Jaquays map (except perhaps in a computer game, but I don'g know which Quake levels Jaquays designed.) But I know that the key feature of a Jaquays map is the multiple routes and non-linearity. Dyson Logos has that in 3d, with lots of passages over/under other passages and areas that look down into other areas.
I've only seen a couple Raggi modules, but they seem to take the depth and interactivity of a Tomb of Horrors and crank it up a notch, much as Dyson Logos does to Jaquays.
So, if we could find someone who combined the features of Dyson Logos and James Raggi, that would be the greatest dungeon designer of all time.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 28, 2013 16:34:43 GMT -6
Correct; I'm surprised that Raggi has not been mentioned more. He would be in my top five.
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Post by grodog on Feb 28, 2013 19:57:57 GMT -6
It is a shame we can't study Barker's minimally keyed gigantic dungeons as it sounds like he could have given rise to a different school of thought on their design. Well-worth checking out if you can peruse them at a con!---Victor Raymond brings them to GaryCon and North TX RPG Con regularly.
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Post by Falconer on Feb 28, 2013 23:09:02 GMT -6
What has Raggi written?
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