More thoughts on a BH "clone"...

[Finarvyn]

Rather than revive the other "clone" thread, I wanted to start a new one.

I'm tinkering with Boot Hill style rules, although my experience with the S&W White Box makes me think that making a "clone" claim can only lead to "oh, no you didn't" kinds of arguments that are counterproductive.

My current thought is:
* Start with 1E as my "baseline" rules set.
* Convert tables to d20 rather than d100. If nothing else, this tends to "hide" the fact that it's so similar a system.
* Make an attempt to incorporate some material from Dragon, some sort of generic background, some sort of simple skills.

My questions as to how close to the original it "needs" to be in order for you to not hate it:
* Does the use of a d20 over d100 change the "feel" too much somehow?
* What if in using a d20 the probabilities aren't exactly the same? (For example, most things divide by 5% but a few are 2% or 4%.)
* If terms like "below average" etc were reorganized to be more standard, would that be a bad thing?
* What (if anything) simply must be kept in? (It's just not BH without it....)
* What (if anything) should be left out? (For example, in OD&D there are two combat systems. You don't need two.)

Any other comments would be appreciated.

[Deleted]

Disclaimer: I've never played BootHill.

I don't think that switching from d100 to d20 has much of an effect on a game system as long as the basic probabilities are similar.

Having stats called "below average" is nice for giving a general feel to the players what their characters are like beyond the numbers, so if BootHill does it I suppose a clone should also. I'm not sure if they have to be the same descriptions, just something to give the right feel.

If you do this, how about adding a "scifi BootHill" appendix so I can run Firefly.

[snorri]

I never played BH too, tough I occasionnaly played western with ultralight D&D rules (6 stats, fire = roll under dex, hit = kill for NPCS, wound for PC. Nothing more).

Even if there's no math difference between d20 and %, this is just another mood, which is very important by itself - and I must admit, a good way to disguise a game mech.

As in BRP, % allows a slow progression in scores. I had bad experiences with the 'roll over' experience system in BRP, but even allowing a +1 in a percent score to a character is a kind reward, with not so disturbing effect on the game.

[arcadayn]

Hmmm. I played a lot of Boot Hill 2nd edition back in the day. It was usually just two of us with my friend as the referree and myself as the only PC (although my friend always ran my npc partner). We had a 3 year long campaign that featured a lot of juvenile behavior, but we had a great time. I think going to D20 would indeed change the feel. Hit locations and wound severity would also be key elements to me. Also, one of the issues I had with the 3rd edition was the way they changed character stats effecting accuracy and speed. I haven't looked at the 1st edition rules to really know the differences between it and 2nd edition, but I would hazard a guess that most people who played BH frequently used the 2nd edition rules.

[coffee]

I'd want something compatible with 2e.

If I ever wanted to play Boot Hill (and I just might...), I'd pick up a copy of 2e off of ebay, where they pop up regularly. So I'd want any clone to be similar, so I could cherry-pick from clone adventures.

[malchya]

I have very fond memories of Boot Hill. It was my first actual RPG, though I only ran it as a table top game for the first couple of years that I owned it. I was lucky in my first gaming group as they shared my varied interests, so we tried a ton of settings.

I think that the percentile system is actually what gives Boot Hill its flavor. I've always had a fondness for % systems, perhaps due to the fact that my first three rpgs (Boot Hill, GangBusters and Top Secret) all used them. I remember actually being disappointed in AD&D because combat was based on a d20 roll! How things change.

I even use parts of the Boot Hill system to spice up several of my other games. Generally the hit location and severity tables.

As with any game I had to, in the words of RAH, "pee in it so I like the flavor better." I added stats for riding ability, sense acuity, and separated Long Gun and Hand Gun accuracy into two stats. (I happen to be one of the best rifle shots I've ever met but a rather mediocre pistol shot!)

Good luck with the clone, though. I'm quite interested in any progress you may have made.

[Deleted]

Never played the 1st or 2nd edition, only the 3rd..which happens to be D20..
I know this post is old, but instead of cloning, why not just buy the 3rd edition?

[makofan]

3rd edition, IMO, is awful. I gave my copy away to Fin (who wanted it for completeness sake). It completely changes the mechanics and the feel of Boot Hill 1st/2nd

[willmark]

My thoughts on a clone are mixed,towards no.

Here's why: like me a lot of older gamers are aware of BH, but few probably played it or for that long. The rules while simple are... Sparse and often incomplete. People know of the name Boot Hill, who wrote it and such but very few know the nature of the rules until recently. Gun fighting is well done, but say brawling... It's got good and bad points.

If anything a re-imagining of it is needed that keeps the simplicity of the gunfight.

The ideas I have milling around keep the basis on d100, and modify from there.

EDIT: I knew Gary had mentioned something about it: www.dragonsfoot.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=23223&p=439067&hilit=boot+hill#p439067
Seems he recognized the short comings of it as well. All in all, Boot Hill is what it is, problem is there isn't much

[battlebrotherbob]

Been thinking about this topic for a bit.

I would use 2nd ed, simply because that is what I think of when I think of BH. The box set was my first purchase of non-D&D stuff. Then MA, but but Mr. Ward is still working on it. ;D

I always felt that the gunfighting rules were fairly well done. Not overly complex, and once learned flowed very well. What was lacking was any sort of elements to make something other than gunfighters. How does one make Lawyers, Judges, Shopkeepers, Ranch Hands, etc.

I would be willing to work on tweaking the core to get a better system or start with scratch and "build" a new system. Seems that 3.5 might work as a baseline. It offers several advantages, which I should not need to elaborate on.

Starting from scratch offers advantages also. I did like the percentile system for combat. Borrowing from Traveller for a skill system could work also. A simple skill system with target numbers, 6/8/A and some skills for mod, nothing too high or multitudinous.

Just some basic thoughts and rough thoughts at that. Like I said something I could get behind to help flesh out if there was any interest.

[willmark]

I was in the same boat for a while but based on some comments over at DF by Gary its readily apparent that even he realized there were holes big enough to drive a train through (duh right

In the end I wrote my own that is nearly done.

[Deleted]

Here is an off-the-cuff idea ...

Why not use Traveller's skill system adapted to the Old West to fill in BH's gaps? Seems like a quick and reasonable fix.

Everyone might get a zero skill horse-back riding and handgun (basic familiarity but no true skill) and then everything is rolled for a char-gen.

I mean, most of us know what a barber, lawyer, assayer, sheriff, bartender, etc. do, even in the late 1800's. So all we truly lack is a skill system. Traveller fills that need, along with some info on firearms, ranges of same, and riding mounts.

Waddya think? Broadside or bravo?

[battlebrotherbob]

That was my thoughts too. A traveller skill system would be easy to adapt.

Would not need a skill to cut hair per se, but law, guide, survival, tracking, things like that. Then adapt a target number based on how hard it is, i have heard good things about 68A. Easy, Medium, Hard, with other outside modifiers. It is something I am going to try with T5 when I get the book.

I do like the percential system for combat, but if we go a Traveller route we may need to toss that out and go with a similar system for combat.

OF course we could just MOD Classic Traveller to do the samething. Over on Citizens of the Imperium some one is working on making the core LBB into a fantasy game. Not interested in that, but may pop over there and see how that project is going and see how much conversion it has taken him. Of course im slightly biased as CT is my favorite RPG, even over AD&D, hearsey I know, but there you have it. ;D

[Deleted]

The reason I didn't suggest using Traveller's combat? I felt BH's system had a more Old West flavor to it. But sure, you could easily use Traveller for the whole system. It was, after all, meant to cover combat in a variety of technological settings (and even between tech settings).

And, Traveller's combat system is deadly, fitting in with the Old West theme.

Still, I like the way BH's system works a bit better, balancing speed and accuracy and toughness in a way that just feels right to me.

[battlebrotherbob]

I agree with you on all your points. Was just pointing out our quick spitballs seem to be pointing in a CT direction. That's OK I guess, but CT is not OGL, so there might be problems.

I do like the combat system in 2ND ed, my preferred ed. I wonder if we could tweak the skill system with OGL and 3.x. Not real familiar with how the mechanics work on that, but lots of smart people here to point us in a direction.

Any interest in adding "classes" or "levels" to make skill system work better? I have some thoughts on that, not sure how it would work out though.

I may spend part of the day today looking into this.

[Deleted]

Another thought occurs to me. Given my previous idea of BH combat and skills adapted from Traveller, how would one make this into a campaign?

It might be difficult to pull off an extended campaign that is historically accurate, so why not fudge a little bit? How about something like "The Wild Wild West" television series from the 1960's? Even if you didn't want to veer into the James Bond steampunk vibe that show had, you could still use the basic scenario.

"The player are government agents who are struggling to bring civilization into the wild west of the US of A."

The railroad would bring the players to different locales and give all players a chance to use their skills in scenarios tailored to them. Murder mysteries, legal battles, smugglers, invasions ... the sky is the limit.

Just a thought.

[battlebrotherbob]

Good thought. That has always been the hardest part of an Old West RPG, after the shoot out what do you do?

The more I think about it all one has to do is steal and tweak ideas from all the 50's and 60's TV shows and movies. People have made "campaigns" for this genre for decades. Plus let us not forget, REH found plenty of material to work with. Louis L'Amour has built a long writing career on this genre also.

One would just have to find a base to work off and then go from there. Bounty hunting, working for the courts, being the sheriff, working as a scout for pioneers. just a bit of work and off we go.

No more work than a good D&D game i think.

[willmark]

Yep. As I noted in the "mapping out a Boot Hill adventure " thread in this forum you really have to look at a Boot Hill or any western adventure as a script rather then a sand box per say.

Problem is to hardcore grognardians such an idea is horrific to them. However this is precisely the right tack to take. Wandering around ala D&D, hopping from one monster hotel to the other would be a *ahem* train wreck in a western RPG as it's not setup the same way as D&D.

[battlebrotherbob]

Just read that thread. Kinda where I was thinking of going. True enough that BH is less of a sandbox and more of a jungle gym (with monitors). It need a lot more supervision than a D&D game.

The real question still is what if any skill system does it "need" to get the playground up and running. I think there is a lot of potential in it, just how much work do "we" want to put into it.

[willmark]

Aug 30, 2012 11:58:02 GMT -6 battlebrotherbob said:

The real question still is what if any skill system does it "need" to get the playground up and running. I think there is a lot of potential in it, just how much work do "we" want to put into it.

Yeah that's why I wrote my own game. Even Gary realized that Boot Hill needed a Hell of a lot of spackle to patch the holes in the edifice. The game is a great one but a lot needs to be bolted on. I started out as an add-on to flesh out the holes and realized one would have to either A) rewrite a lot of it or B) bolt something else on. The way the attributes are structured don't really lend themselves to much outside of the minis rules they are. That's no knock against it, rather it is what it is.

In the end I went with B because it made more sense. In the home stretch of the alpha rules now.

Aug 30, 2012 11:58:02 GMT -6 battlebrotherbob said:

Just read that thread. Kinda where I was thinking of going. True enough that BH is less of a sandbox and more of a jungle gym (with monitors). It need a lot more supervision than a D&D game.

Fair description of Boot Hill and western genre for RPGs in general. Westerns that are not weird west that is.

[Deleted]

Willmark, if you've posted about this I've either overlooked it or forgotten about it (I was in an accident recently and have had some memory issues).

Could you tell us a bit more about it? No need to give away trade secrets or anything, but I'm merely curious as your approach to the game.

[Deleted]

Oh ... and have an exalt for "making the game your own."

[battlebrotherbob]

I'm interested in hearing about where you are going with this also. Again no trade secrets, just a general outline of your thoughts.

I spent more time thinking about sandbox games and what I will call jungle gym games ( only because I have not heard anything else used). Obviously D&D and Gamma World are 2 huge sandboxes. Boot Hill, and Top Secret are 2 jungle gym games.

Sand box games are well defined by the community already. The jungle gym games are what interest me right now. Couple questions about them. Are they worth trying to make into sandbox games? How many people really want them as sandbox? It seems to me you either love them or don't know anything about them. You can work with the system as is or you have a few shootouts, have fun and move on.

Well enough rambling for now, if I'm crazy and over thinking all this or can it, should it, be done?

[willmark]

Aug 30, 2012 18:05:15 GMT -6 @dubeers said:

Willmark, if you've posted about this I've either overlooked it or forgotten about it (I was in an accident recently and have had some memory issues).

Could you tell us a bit more about it? No need to give away trade secrets or anything, but I'm merely curious as your approach to the game.

My first exalt thanks!

Pretty soon it will be ready for people to nit pic. Right now I'm In the process of making sure the rules are consitent as its in part based on a traditional RPG I started in 1995! Add to the fact that I jump from section when i write and I'm sure it probably has more parts I'm less then clear on.

But anyways.
D100 based, 12 stats in three groupings: fighting, mental, physical.
Stats give a bonus, but no other modifiers like in D&D stats do: bb/lift gates, none of that).
Skill based, also chances for innate talents.
Anyone can try anything those that are skilled have greater chances of success.
No classes.
15 minute character creation

Best part is it does use a deck of cards for many areas of the game including initiative and wounds. Hardly a new idea I realize but it does work well in my system. Best part is I've never played deadlands or aces and eights so I'm not familiar with their utilizations of the deck of their system other then in passing. The only system I've actually read that has card system is Savage Lands which is different from what I'm doing. is In fact the only old west RPGs I've read are Boot Hill and Western City.

Combat is LETHAL in keeping with its roots of being inspired by Boot Hill.

[revgunn]

That sounds like a system I'd like to see. My Boot Hill 3rd game is entering its second year of play. In some cases, I do feel limited by the rules, so I'd love to see what you've got going here.

[revgunn]

All this "sandbox" vs. "gymnasium" talk. I don't understand. My thoughts are that in a sandbox, play is driven by the actions of the characters/players, not by GM railroad or restrictions. If the players choose to explore an area or plot thread or npc, its their choice. I just extrapolate the things discovered to be in keeping with the themes, tropes and situations established in prior games.

Am I missing something here?

[battlebrotherbob]

Sept 1, 2012 23:17:01 GMT -6 revgunn said:

All this "sandbox" vs. "gymnasium" talk. I don't understand. My thoughts are that in a sandbox, play is driven by the actions of the characters/players, not by GM railroad or restrictions. If the players choose to explore an area or plot thread or npc, its their choice. I just extrapolate the things discovered to be in keeping with the themes, tropes and situations established in prior games.

Am I missing something here?

No, I have just noticed a difference in some of the older games. Probably not earth shaking, just a note.

A sandbox game, as I see it, the GM sets up the basics and then the players explore. the Gm then guides the players based on what the players are doing or did.

What I call a "jungle gym" is where the GM need to set up more of the sandbox and then "guides" the players much more than a tradional RPG. not so much railroading as a firm hand on what to do. Games like Boot Hill and Top Secret come to my mind.

These games are still very good, I have a copy of each still and would love to ahve the time to run them. They tend to be more labor intensive than a regular D&D game. The inter-connections and consequenses of player actions have a much larger impact on the world itself. If left in a traditional sandbox play style things get confusing and tend to wander without a firm hand at the till.

Hope this clears up a confusion that I brought upon myself.

[willmark]

I think it's a valid point.

What is a western themed RPG looking to emulate? A western movie (for the most part). With that the standard wander around and find adventure might work, but it doesn't feel like a western to me. It feels like D&D with different weapons, no armor and set in the Old West.

Can you wander the campaign map? Sure. And it might be a blast. My guess is the more I think about westerns the more there needs to be a structure or narrative. A Western is strong on character interaction, its what drives the story, the locations/vistas are not the primary mover.

Think about the difference in a western compared to a D&D sandbox: sure you can run it open, but I think its fairly likely a party can just wander as well.

[jmccann]

I have been thinking of how to make a western RPG campaign. One thing I have been thinking about regarding this BH clone discussion is that some of the early modules were very guided. The giant series is what I am thinking of. Something like that could work for a western RPG I think. Instead of a sandbox, have a couple of "boss monsters" and a bunch of clues/ red herrings/ mcguffins around. Try to achieve a few episodes of play rather than an extended campaign.
\

[willmark]

Episodic is probably the best word that describes a western. The best westerns (no pun intended) have a flow to them. I very much like sandbox play but in a western there has to be a bit more guidance. I think Gang Busters is similar but Metamorphsis Alpha and Gamma World are more akin to D&D.

I've been reviewing the Boot Hill modules reflect writers not sure how to treat the genre. I'm not the only one who's seen this.

I think a western sandbox is possible depending on the players but that is true of almost any RPG.

Jmmcann- I think you would be fine with that because the G series isn't really a sandbox, but neither is it a railroad, in a way it reads like a somewhat, open ended script.