System-Naive and System-Informed Play

[coffee]

admin said:

Indeed, I remember the time that I took the Champions RPG and bent the rules to the point where I could create a character significantly better than that of my peers. (Of course, it wasn't as much fun to play, but I loved the challenge of finding a way to make it.)

I was running Champions back in the day and had a player do that, only he thought the character was a blast to play. Then, while he was off in another city, he ran a game for some friends of his there. He let one of them play this character; that's when he finally understood what I'd been saying the whole time. (He didn't play that character in my game again...)

[ffilz]

I don't see a problem with players knowing and applying the rules. The problem with the stereotypical rules lawyer isn't that he's trying to apply the rules. It's the lengthy discussions that disrupt the game. And in fact, if you look closely at the true rules lawyer, he actually isn't trying to play by the rules. He's trying to get the GM to rule in his favor.

I also see that when character min-maxing while building the character becomes a problem is mostly a sign that the character build system doesn't actually mesh with the campaign goals well. Actually, ultimately, I don't think Champions/GURPS style character build is actually good for an RPG. Players end up putting way too much energy into the character build and character concept, and then don't want the GM to mess with it. As a result, instead of active play to discover the story, we see the players pre-telling their story. That isn't to say that character building can't be fun, and that testing one's character isn't fun, but I'm not sure it's a good structure for long term play (at least when the build is complex - a simpler build that is also targetted at dynamic play is a different story - I would use Dogs in the Vinyard as such an example).

On a separate note, while there is an element of fun in "discovering" the rules, ultimately, I think the RPG form works best when there are rules and the players are aware of them and can make informed choices. Freeform group story telling is really neat when it works, but it's incredibly dependant on the social dynamics of the group. I have seen freeform or rules light play result in one or two people (including the GM) totally dominating play while everyone else sits around watching, usually in boredom and frustration.

Frank

[dwayanu]

As a Champions dilettant, I found that the keener players highly valued efficient design. I would give my character sheet to one of them to optimize. He got his kicks in that aspect, and I got to enjoy playing without worrying over it.

[coffee]

Best of both worlds, there.

I value efficient design to a point, but I'm really concerned about how to kick-fit my character concept into the game systems. Sometimes it's easy; sometimes not.

Just to get practice with the system, I used to take Marvel characters (like Spider-man for instance) and create them as 'starting' heroes. Learned a lot about the systems and it gave me something to do while waiting for game night to roll around.

To get back on topic here, I think some games (like Champions) do benefit from the players knowing something about the rules. But there's always a trade-off; sometimes they go a bit crazy tweaking instead of just playing a decent character.

[Deleted]

There's something to be said about being a "cherry" to a game. As a player, I remember having the most fun when I was still pretty new to the hobby--not a raw recruit, so to speak, but at the point that I was comfortable with the rules I had to pay attention to to play, but was still unfamiliar with the big picture, if you know what I mean. Ignorance IS bliss, dang nabit! ;D

[crimhthanthegreat]

ffilz said:

I have seen freeform or rules light play result in one or two people (including the GM) totally dominating play while everyone else sits around watching, usually in boredom and frustration.

Frank

This is why I love to be the ref. Once of my knacks or special talents is that I am very good at making it impossible for one or two people to dominate play without being heavy handed about it. I just have a way of involving everyone. In fact, if someone is trying to be uninvolved, things just start flowing thru that character. I never play favorites and let one person have all the fun. I think that is one of the secrets of my campaign longevity is that I keep everyone involved and having fun. I try to go with as light a hand as possible, the more they do the easier it is for me to create. I am not a very good writer, but when I talk you can almost see it.

[pjork]

coffee said:

And my friend said, "Who cares? That's not Luke!"

I'm more interested in the third stormtrooper from the left's story than I am in Luke's. To each his own.

[crimhthanthegreat]

pjork said:

coffee said:

And my friend said, "Who cares? That's not Luke!"

I'm more interested in the third stormtrooper from the left's story than I am in Luke's. To each his own.

Have an Exalt! That is the attitude that I love in a player!

[Finarvyn]

It's also similar to the ad that WotC used for its Star Wars RPG -- the tagline was always "what's his story?"