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Post by Finarvyn on Apr 23, 2009 12:53:36 GMT -6
There are a few gaming terms that have really spead recently, and I'm curious as to what they mean to people nowadays so that I can figure out what folks are talking about. One that I find odd is the "grognard," which used to apply to old wargamers but now apparently is anyone who plays older or out of print games. It took me a while to figure out when this definition changed, and I'm still not sure we all agree since I sometimes see people call themselves 4E grognards or the like. The recent one I don't quite get yet is "sandbox." To me, a "sandbox" or "sand table" was always a big thing in my friend's garage which was roughly rectangular in shape and was actually full of sand, and when we played Chainmail and other miniatures battles we'd set them up in the sandbox. What was neat about the sand is that you could build terrain on demand, scooping it together to make a hill and drawing squiggly lines with your finger to make a river. Now I see posts on various boards about "playing a sandbox" and they're talking about RPG campaigns. Maybe my age is showing, but I don't think these RPGs are being played in actual sand. So, what is a "sandbox campaign" to you?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 23, 2009 13:31:07 GMT -6
I've never been a big fan of "grognard" in its current usage, this term always brings to mind the more traditional gaming usage.
Ditto with "sand box", though I feel its appropriation to describe a wide, open milieu in which the character are free to ignore or pursue anything that catches their fancy to be somewhat more appropriate. My basic problem with "sand box" as a descriptor is this: it describes (to me, at least) the same thing "campaign setting" does ... and I prefer the latter term.
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Post by Mr. Darke on Apr 23, 2009 13:57:31 GMT -6
I've seen different definitions for Grognard used. However I still associate it with wargamers and not RPG Gamers. But there hasn't been a better term coined so I think we're stuck with it. I would redefine Grognard to mean: One who prefers classic gaming systems as opposed to modern day systems. But that still doesn't seem precise.
Sand box is one I haven't fully understood yet. I have thought it to be a setting that is open for any level PC to encounter any level of challenge. Say a 1st level fighter discovering a great wyrms lair by accident.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 23, 2009 14:54:04 GMT -6
Contextually, I've seen sandbox used to denote a campaign or adventure that is the opposite of a railroad.
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Post by Haldo Bramwise on Apr 23, 2009 16:51:50 GMT -6
Finarvyn, I feel much better now that I know I'm not the only one who doesn't really know what everybody means by sandbox. I started calling BHP's stuff "Old School" because that is what other people called it. Now there are discussions all over the web about how "old school" is such a bad phrase.
Play what you want. The folks that are jealous of the fun we are having might lash out at us - so what?
I say all this, because I don't really know what sandbox means either... ;D
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Post by kenmeister on Apr 23, 2009 19:34:44 GMT -6
As I understand it, a sandbox campaign is one that allows free will within a given set of constraints, usually geographic.
Verbosh is the ultimate example of a sandbox campaign. You say to the players, "Here's a roughly 200 mile by 300 mile area. There's lots to do in here, and have any adventure you want, but please don't leave the area because that's all the material I've got."
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Post by kesher on Apr 23, 2009 20:42:40 GMT -6
From someone who named their blog with the term, this: As I understand it, a sandbox campaign is one that allows free will within a given set of constraints, usually geographic. Verbosh is the ultimate example of a sandbox campaign. You say to the players, "Here's a roughly 200 mile by 300 mile area. There's lots to do in here, and have any adventure you want, but please don't leave the area because that's all the material I've got." pretty much nails it for me. No meta-plot, no railroading, just a wide-open imaginative space. And, again from my p.o.v., one whose details get filled in through play, directed by the desires of the players and their characters. Wasn't it our very own Calithena who coined the term way back here? In terms of examples, I think of The Wilderlands of High Fantasy, of course, as well as the West Marches campaign.
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Post by chgowiz on Apr 24, 2009 7:38:47 GMT -6
I also equate a sandbox to one that expands as the players expand their reach. To me, it's the opposite of the "story driven" scenario and one where the megadungeon "tent pole" really lives - you have the freedom to go where you want, do what you want and there's not metaplot that is going to force you to go here, go there, do this or that.
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Post by geoffrey on Apr 24, 2009 8:37:26 GMT -6
I started calling BHP's stuff "Old School" because that is what other people called it. Now there are discussions all over the web about how "old school" is such a bad phrase. IMO, "old school" is an awesome phrase. I dislike just about all the other buzzwords and phrases, but I love "old school".
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Post by blissinfinite on Apr 24, 2009 9:28:36 GMT -6
It took me a while for me to figure out what the term 'sandbox' meant with regards to D&D but once I figured it out I thought it was spot on for what my interpretations of the game were. I think it describes a setting of limited space (box) where friends/players gather together and meander, free-style, bringing whatever inspiration they have to the game. No destination, no major plots. One wrong turn could mean death. No guarantee of becoming any more of a 'hero' than you started out as. It's like children playing in an actual sandbox. Toys are brought in, dump-truck, pail, shovel, plastic army men and games and fun and situations are created without any preconceived outcome. Remember those days? Even campaign setting imply to me a beginning and ending point within some plot or larger story context. But that could be left over from wargame scenarios (which, I believe, D&D got the term). I always felt that most small towns and cities would never really feel the affects of the larger political happenings within a campaign world. Most folks have their own concerns and petty rivalry to even care what forces and influences may affect their town until it's nearly on their front door. PC's affecting the outcome of City-states was always a bit too cinematic for my tastes.
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benoist
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Post by benoist on Apr 24, 2009 11:59:58 GMT -6
As I understand it, a sandbox campaign is one that allows free will within a given set of constraints, usually geographic. That's how I'd define the term as well. What's interesting is that "sandbox" took a life of its own in computer games as well. For instance, the term is used continually in Halo 3 map design through Forge, the tool allowing any player to create his own map variants. One of the most recently released maps for the game is actually called "Sandbox" precisely because it is a basic template that can be adjusted in almost any way to create any variant map through the Forge application. Link to YouTube presentation of the map. Fascinating stuff, when you consider where the term comes from.
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Post by coffee on Apr 24, 2009 15:24:46 GMT -6
It's like children playing in an actual sandbox. Toys are brought in, dump-truck, pail, shovel, plastic army men and games and fun and situations are created without any preconceived outcome. Remember those days? Exactly. And the opposite end of the spectrum (note that I'm not saying it's the wrong way to play) is the railroad, which is also a pretty good metaphor. It's a detailed creation, like a model railroad, with every tree and rock and station platform accounted for. And the trains always run on time. Some are bigger and some are smaller, but they are all labors of love. Either way is valid play (as well as all the subtle gradations in between). You just have to make sure the game you're in is the style you like (or are willing to try). Oh, and to have fun. It is a game after all...
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Post by dwayanu on Apr 25, 2009 22:04:38 GMT -6
From what I gather, "sandbox" means what "D&D campaign" used to mean in my experience.
The original concept seems to have become obscure in some quarters, to the extent that such examples as the West Marches campaign are seen (perhaps even by their participants) as something novel. The classic Wilderlands and City State products (even in their recent expanded editions) are perhaps the most widely known commercial exemplars of "sandboxes".
"Campaign" these days can mean stringing together modules or using an "adventure path" product, or home-brewed emulations of that plot-line mode of play. Indeed, that is likely to be just what newer-school gamers assume is meant.
So, "sandbox" seems to be a way to distinguish the "old-fashioned" approach to a campaign.
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busman
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Post by busman on Apr 26, 2009 0:50:09 GMT -6
Sandbox is a very popular term in video games. It describes a game in which the players define the direction of the play, and not the game itself; a game which has many different sub-games within it to support a variety of playstyles. GTA III was the pinnacle of the sandbox style of game versus the many decade trend of a more hollywood style linear game (of which, Half-Life II could be considered the pinnacle). I suspect this is where the proliferation of the term comes from in the last few years. As for Grognard, keeping it meaning just Wargamers rejects the natural progression of language. Grognards was, of course, originally applied to old wargamers. But, if it were how much usage would it still get? Wargames just don't have an appreciable % of the market any longer. I think wikipedia defines the progression of the term quite nicely: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GrognardIf anything, I think keeping it to the wargamer term neglects it's original usage too narrowly; something the evolving terminology captures better. As a funny closing note, but not expanding your usage of the term Grognard, you're probably a Grognard. =)
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2009 4:49:29 GMT -6
As for Grognard, keeping it meaning just Wargamers rejects the natural progression of language. It always seemed to me like that appropriation of the term was an attempt by RPG'ers to give themselves (imagined) credibility. The authors and original players of D&D were grognards and I would imagine that is the allure of the term to many. I don't feel it captures it better. And your "evolving terminology" is my "misuse of a word". I hope, by the way, this doesn't come across as harsh or judgmental; it is merely a friendly disagreement.
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busman
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Post by busman on Apr 26, 2009 11:20:06 GMT -6
It always seemed to me like that appropriation of the term was an attempt by RPG'ers to give themselves (imagined) credibility. The authors and original players of D&D were grognards and I would imagine that is the allure of the term to many. This just doesn't make sense at all. Grognard was used as a pejorative term. It was used to capture the sense of grumpy old men which is what aging wargamers who wouldn't adapt to RPGs and then to RPGers who would adapt to latest version. (thus the closer to original term of grumbling old men in napolean's army) It is only very recently that the use of Grognard as a badge of pride by the grumpy old men that they are grumpy old men.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2009 11:29:42 GMT -6
This just doesn't make sense at all. I'm afraid it does. So sorry. And it still is. Just because people are mis-using it changes nothing. I supposed that depends on the time frame you are using for "recently" but I've never thought of that term as a badge of pride. Again, I know some folks use it that way but it sounds rather like a city-dwelling fellow decked out in spotless blue jeans, cowboy boots, and Stetson claiming he's a cowboy.
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busman
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Post by busman on Apr 26, 2009 11:40:44 GMT -6
This just doesn't make sense at all. I'm afraid it does. So sorry. How does pejorative term have allure? Precisely what is your assertation? Mine is that Grognard has advanced in its usage to continue to include to older more hardcore audience of people playing OOP and older edition of games.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2009 12:21:27 GMT -6
My apologies for any offense my remark gave. If it makes you feel any better, I didn't mean for that to sound nasty, I meant to sound apologetic for disagreeing with you.
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Post by blissinfinite on Apr 28, 2009 9:25:28 GMT -6
I ran across this link and thought it would be a good addition to this discussion. Many things mentioned in the blog post were touched upon here, but nonetheless, a good read: webamused.com/bumblers/?p=160
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Post by Deleted on Apr 28, 2009 9:40:42 GMT -6
Interesting article. Thanks for posting this link.
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Post by grodog on May 1, 2009 22:37:58 GMT -6
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palmer
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Post by palmer on May 2, 2009 21:29:38 GMT -6
ENWorld, yeaargh... Well, I guess it's nice all the little fellas have somewhere safe to play. So they don't wander out into the road or something.
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busman
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Post by busman on May 2, 2009 21:58:43 GMT -6
ENWorld, yeaargh... Well, I guess it's nice all the little fellas have somewhere safe to play. So they don't wander out into the road or something. We were all little fellas at some point. Enworld, overall, is a nice place to visit. For the most part, people are reasonably civil and openminded.
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Post by blackbarn on May 5, 2009 1:25:18 GMT -6
I also think that "sandbox" is not needed because it's simply what a campaign should be.
However... we should be glad the term is being commonly used now... because it's that term, and the fact that this traditional style of campaigning now has an easily-discussed term to use at all, that has gotten a lot of younger people interested in playing this way and trying out the traditional style game. The open-ended, go-anywhere campaign is being discussed online, and now seems a viable style to people who would never have understood it before.
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Post by robertsconley on May 5, 2009 7:53:29 GMT -6
I also think that "sandbox" is not needed because it's simply what a campaign should be. One of the reason the term arose was because of the Shackled City Adventure Path. After which people started doing Adventure Paths which take your 3.X characters from 1st level to 20th. They are very linear in their plots. The essential trick is that they place a compelling clue at the end of a module that leads to the next module. Sandbox as a campaign term arose around 2005 (I can't find any reference earlier than that) from Old School fans and Wilderlands fans describing their campaign style. It is borrowed from computer games. In computer games a sandbox describe a game that allows it's player free reign of it's internal world or a game that is easily modified by the user.
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Post by calithena on May 8, 2009 20:05:24 GMT -6
Grognard: Old time wargamers own it, all ten of them that are left. Among RPGers, you can maybe call yourself a grognard if you played OD&D or AD&D1 etc. back in the day. But if a wargamer calls you on it you have to step down.
(The original grognards were Napoleon's older soldiers, the 'grumblers'.)
One of the things the grognards were grumbling about was all the kids running to play D&D instead. So I suppose in that sense thanks to Magic and Warcraft maybe nous tout sommes grognards now. But precedent holds nonetheless.
Sandbox: I did not coin it. The term's been around for a long while and the usage mentioned by several (the campaign world is a sandbox for the PCs to play in) seems about right. It's been around for a long time. From my hazy wargaming memories I never recall us referring to sand tables as "sandboxes" or games on them as "sandbox play", but it wouldn't be so weird if someone did I guess.
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Post by kenmeister on May 12, 2009 10:43:16 GMT -6
One of the things the grognards were grumbling about was all the kids running to play D&D instead. Time to reminisce (however you spell it). My college had a very rich gaming club, it would meet every Friday night in the largest hall on campus. Freshmen year I arrived and went the first night. There must have been a dozen guys who stood up in turn proclaiming what D&D or other rpg campaign they were going to run and players filled up each group at 8+. After freshman year I made a lot of friends and didn't return to the game club until senior year. By then it had been taken over by Magic. A few brave souls stood up and said they were running a D&D game, but few people flocked to their game. The rest were busy trading Magic cards; must have been a hundred of them. They weren't even playing the game as far as I could tell, just trading. I imagine D&D made a return to the club after 3E came out but that was well after I left college.
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Post by supernaught on May 18, 2009 12:05:48 GMT -6
It seems to me the term "sandbox" is what was originally meant as a “campaign”. The whole idea you can do anything is the central tenet of early gaming. The introduction of overproduced professional gaming "aids" of the past decade or so really changed how people play D&D IMHO. A look at early game "adventures" contrasts sharply with the modern approach to adventure and campaign design. The bare bones approach to adventure design based on a lot of notes, minimal descriptions of encounters and tons of “winging it” has been confirmed many times by Mr. Gygax himself. Why do I mention this important aspect? Because it is essential to “sandbox” style campaigns where the world is not predefined but evolves with the actions of the players. Also the environment is fluid and not etched in stone. Mr. Gygax mentions areas of both Castle and City of Greyhawk altered as the result of player actions. So "sandbox" just goes back to the idea that D&D is freeform and has no limits...period. Ever wonder why there are tons of random encounter tables? The campaign environments were not even remotely defined but developed as needed. Broad strokes were placed on the canvas but the fine detail was waiting to spring to life The players enter X wilderness hex, the DM rolls and finds a lair of goblin caves and bang marks it on his map. The same principle can apply to dungeon design and is half the fun, the unexpected. Just look at the original meaning of the term "dungeon". It was once synonymous with the word "campaign" to see how far we have drifted from the roots of the game. So "sandbox" to me seems to be a term that denotes heading back in the direction in which D&D was played, not plot driven but player driven, wild, wooly and Katy bar the door. This to me is the essence of fantasy gaming, and to hell with the “rules” for they are there for the DM and not the other way around. Video games have adopted this idea and is innovative because of the technology involved but they are just building graphically on a foundation that Gygax and Co. created using their imagination and a bunch of eager friends who wanted to have fun ;D
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busman
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Post by busman on May 18, 2009 23:24:32 GMT -6
Though RPGs were more popular earlier than video games, the term "sandbox" gained popularity and found it's way into RPGs from video games; not the other way around.
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