|
Post by Finarvyn on Jun 15, 2008 8:41:52 GMT -6
I've been looking at Matt's S&W material and looking for cuts to trim it down to my Original Edition rules set.
In true OE spirit, I have determined that magic-user spells above level 6 need to go. Ditto for cleric spells above level 5. This is in keeping, I think, with the mission of the project.
However, I'm a little torn about the spells left over. What we have is a mix of M&M and GH spells at the moment. One part of me says trim 'em all back to the M&M spells only.
Another part says "yeah, but that kills magic missile and other useful spells." (Okay, so that's my wife talking. She only plays MU's and hates to be limited in her spell options.)
I'd be interested in hearing any feedback on the issue. It may be "my" edit, but hopefully it's "our" rules when they're done.
|
|
busman
Level 6 Magician
Playing OD&D, once again. Since 2008!
Posts: 448
|
Post by busman on Jun 15, 2008 8:58:56 GMT -6
M&M spells and GH spells marked with asterisk or optional additional spells or the like, something that clearly delineates them. If that's a pain, M&M only.
|
|
mythmere
Level 5 Thaumaturgist
Posts: 293
|
Post by mythmere on Jun 15, 2008 9:04:58 GMT -6
As a legal matter, don't use the exact spell list from M&M; you could add only one or two GH spells, or use some with asterisks to indicate that they're optional, but don't duplicate the exact spell lists with no change whatsoever.
|
|
|
Post by RandallS on Jun 15, 2008 9:58:39 GMT -6
I'd be interested in hearing any feedback on the issue. It may be "my" edit, but hopefully it's "our" rules when they're done. At least some of the spells from GH would be nice as they round out the spell lists, especially for clerics. Perhaps some spells could be listed as DMO. DM's Option as to whether they are available to all or only to NPCs unless the PCs research them (or capture an NPC's spell book with one or more of the DMO spells included)?
|
|
jrients
Level 6 Magician
Posts: 411
|
Post by jrients on Jun 15, 2008 12:57:36 GMT -6
My vote is to keep the non-M&M spells to a minimum.
|
|
Arminath
Level 4 Theurgist
WoO:CR
Posts: 150
|
Post by Arminath on Jun 15, 2008 14:16:01 GMT -6
1) Trim Cleric spells levels down to 5.
2) Trim Magic-user spells levels down to 6.
3) Use the M&M and GH spells (your wife is wise, limiting spellcasters is like limiting Fighting-men to Leather armor).
|
|
|
Post by Finarvyn on Jun 15, 2008 18:18:39 GMT -6
As a legal matter, don't use the exact spell list from M&M; you could add only one or two GH spells, or use some with asterisks to indicate that they're optional, but don't duplicate the exact spell lists with no change whatsoever. Well, Matt, I hope the list is legal 'cause I'm working from your rough draft that you sent me. At this point I haven't even thought about adding spells; I'm still trimming stuff out!
|
|
mythmere
Level 5 Thaumaturgist
Posts: 293
|
Post by mythmere on Jun 15, 2008 18:57:10 GMT -6
As a legal matter, don't use the exact spell list from M&M; you could add only one or two GH spells, or use some with asterisks to indicate that they're optional, but don't duplicate the exact spell lists with no change whatsoever. Well, Matt, I hope the list is legal 'cause I'm working from your rough draft that you sent me. At this point I haven't even thought about adding spells; I'm still trimming stuff out! The list as it stands is legal; however, if it's trimmed to exactly and only the spells listed in M&M, I'd have a concern about that. Keeping in a spell or two from GH, or adding in only level 6 cleric spells, or creating a single brand new spell ... something has to be different and represent an artistic/gaming choice independent of "copying" what's in M&M. What's being done here, from the legal standpoint, is using the SRD to re-create the numerical rules of 0e. Spell lists are a grey area - numerical or not. Insofar as they define a character's capabilities, they are numerical. Insofar as they represent a flavorful list of options, they may be within copyright parameters. If the list is different, even fairly slightly, the grey area shifts away from the flavorful list of options. The influence of the SRD on this is involved as well, blah, blah, blah. Sorry to interject the legal side into it, but the legal side is an important portion of the creation of a retro-clone. Something has to be involved beyond trimming the list down to exactly the spells from M&M. Finished being boring, now. PS - hey, you can't call your version 0e, they're BOTH 0e! Mine's just got GH stuff in it as well as WB!
|
|
|
Post by Finarvyn on Jun 15, 2008 19:48:10 GMT -6
Sorry to interject the legal side into it, but the legal side is an important portion of the creation of a retro-clone. Something has to be involved beyond trimming the list down to exactly the spells from M&M. No, this is what I need because I don't quite get the OGL thing yet. I don't want to put a lot of work into the project only to find out that it can't be released! EDIT: So, I'm assuming that if I keep the entire list of all spells from Arcane levels 1-6 and Divine levels 1-5 that would be "different" enough so I would be on solid ground? (Or at least use M&M plus a few extras.)
|
|
|
Post by geoffrey on Jun 15, 2008 21:38:14 GMT -6
Since duplicating the M&M spell lists is not possible, then I say to make the absolute minimum additions from Greyhawk.
|
|
|
Post by dwayanu on Jun 16, 2008 0:32:29 GMT -6
FWIW (probably nothing, as it's "house rules"), here's one thing I've done differently:
On the 2nd level list, clerics add Silence 15' Radius (from Greyhawk) Resist Heat or Cold (as Potion of Fire Resistance on subject touched)
On the 3rd level list, they add Speak With Dead (from Greyhawk) Dispell Magic (as the magic-user spell)
Regarding MUs, one might bring in some spells from Holmes (as did the later Basic editions) ... unless that would cramp the style of a forthcoming Holmes "retro-clone."
|
|
|
Post by robertsconley on Jun 16, 2008 7:17:29 GMT -6
EDIT: So, I'm assuming that if I keep the entire list of all spells from Arcane levels 1-6 and Divine levels 1-5 that would be "different" enough so I would be on solid ground? (Or at least use M&M plus a few extras.) If you copied those lists from the d20srd then you would be on solid ground. You could note what edition each spell appeared which would allow people wanting to play with the older list a reference to work off of.
|
|
mythmere
Level 5 Thaumaturgist
Posts: 293
|
Post by mythmere on Jun 16, 2008 10:42:44 GMT -6
EDIT: So, I'm assuming that if I keep the entire list of all spells from Arcane levels 1-6 and Divine levels 1-5 that would be "different" enough so I would be on solid ground? (Or at least use M&M plus a few extras.) Yes. You will have applied independent "artistic/design" decisions to modify materials from the SRD into something that feels like, but isn't, the pattern of artistic/design decisions made in creating the original Gygax spell lists. When operating with material that isn't numerical or purely game-system, there must be independent creative input, and it must be created from material in the SRD (which can be modified to whatever you want). You cannot "derive" material from non-numerical, non-system material in the original unless that material is (a) contained in the SRD in some form and (b) you have made independent creative decisions. I am, btw, using a layman's definition of "derive," and I suggest that Finarvyn not use that word at all in discussions about the project. The legal meaning of that word is synonymous with "illegally derived." Just make sure you don't say you "derived" anything, even though it's innocuous in the layman's meaning. EDIT: um, given how complex it is, best not to bother discussing it on the boards - I'll handle it with Fin as issues arise.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 18, 2008 6:24:33 GMT -6
How about marking them "common" and "average" and "rare" and all of the "rare" ones can happen to be from greyhawk supplement?
|
|
|
Post by foster1941 on Jun 18, 2008 18:35:25 GMT -6
Add the extra 2nd & 3rd level cleric spells from Supp I, kick the extra MU spells to the curb (for the most part -- maybe add a few, but to me it just won't be "white box" if magic missile is on the list!)
|
|
Arminath
Level 4 Theurgist
WoO:CR
Posts: 150
|
Post by Arminath on Jun 18, 2008 22:05:17 GMT -6
Add the extra 2nd & 3rd level cleric spells from Supp I, kick the extra MU spells to the curb (for the most part -- maybe add a few, but to me it just won't be "white box" if magic missile is on the list!) As the only 1st level damage spell, Magic Missile is a good addition to the list, especially since the GH version requires a to hit roll it keeps the power in check.
|
|
|
Post by jrmapes on Jun 19, 2008 16:36:44 GMT -6
I concur with Foster on this one
Jerry
|
|
|
Post by philotomy on Jun 20, 2008 12:17:30 GMT -6
I like Foster's suggestion, and strongly approve of excluding magic missile from the white box version.
|
|
|
Post by calithena on Jun 20, 2008 13:42:09 GMT -6
Clerics at least need a couple more spells. I've rewritten these lists for my home game a few dozen times, maybe I'll try to post them when I'm on my other computer.
I would recommend being as vague as possible about everything - avoid area of effect, range, components, as much as possible - don't give in to the temptation to define things - try to follow the LBB style as much as possible.
|
|