[S&W WB] Unified stat bonus chart?

[Finarvyn]

Thinking about the stat bonus charts.

The WB has different +/- numbers for each stat.

The B/X rules have something like this:
3 = -3
4-5 = -2
6-8 = -1
9-12 = +0
13-15 = +1
16-17 = +2
18 = +3

I thought that a range of +3 to -3 seemed large for a WB set, but it might be possible to unify the charts to look more like this:
3-8 = -1
9-12 = +0
13-16 = +1
17-18 = +2

Two key questions:
(1) To unify or not to unify.
(2) If I unify, what number scheme seems most appropriate?

EDIT: changed 17-19 on the last chart to 17-18. I had not intended to include any stats over 18 in the WB rules.

[busman]

I would accept unification with Holmes, maybe, but B/X? Feels like we're crossing that line into something someone else is trying to cover already.

[coffee]

I voted "uncertain."

I don't want to see a B/X "uniform" spread; it places too much emphasis on high ability scores. But I don't necessarily think there should be no bonus/penalty at all.

I kind of like the 15+/6- (taken from Constitution), with a simple +/-1. Really, larger bonuses should be magical in nature.

But, really, it's up to you.

[Finarvyn]

Jun 18, 2008 15:12:28 GMT -6 busman said:

I would accept unification with Holmes, maybe, but B/X? Feels like we're crossing that line into something someone else is trying to cover already.

Does Holmes have a unified table? If so I might go with something like what he did. (Scurries off to check...)

Jun 18, 2008 15:13:16 GMT -6 coffee said:

I kind of like the 15+/6- (taken from Constitution), with a simple +/-1. Really, larger bonuses should be magical in nature.

Yeah, I should have listed this one, because it's a chart I've spent lots of time looking at.
3-6 = -1
7-14 = +0
15-18 = +1

The reason why I proposed the second one in my OP was because (1) it kept 9-12 as "average" and (2) it rewarded the high stats.

Maybe this one: (It's the DEX chart from Holmes)
3-8 = -1
9-12 = +0
13-18 = +1

[mythmere]

perhaps 9-12 =0
13-17=+1
18=+2

Unifying the stats is worthless if it doesn't work in the game. The problem surfaces with the +2. It seems to me - not as a LBB player -- that a +2 bonus to hit dice is kind of high. But for an 18, perhaps it's the right bonus to "reward" that high stat roll. I mean, an 18 is a really unusual roll.

[foster1941]

The -3/+3 bonus chart is one of the things I most dislike about Moldvay+ Classic D&D so I absolutely wouldn't want to see it incorporated into S&W. If you want to go with a unified table (and I don't necessarily think you should" "unified" anything is horribly overrated and leads to sterile, formulaic games) I'd prefer something like the following:

3-6: major penalty
7-8: minor penalty
9-12: no adjustment
13-14: minor bonus
15-18: major bonus

With different bonuses and penalties for each stat (and no requirement that every stat have a full set of bonuses and penalties -- or any bonuses or penalties at all -- or that the bonuses and penalties necessarily mirror each other)

PRIME REQUISITE:
MajP: -20% from earned XP
MinP: -10% from earned XP
MinB: +5% to earned XP
MajB: +10% to earned XP

CONSTITUTION:
MajP: -1 hit point per die (minimum 1)
MinP: --
MinB: will withstand adversity
MajB: +1 hit point per die

DEXTERITY:
MajP: --
MinP: -1 to hit with missiles
MinB: +1 to hit with missiles
MajB: --

CHARISMA (the only one that doesn't track exactly from Vol. I):
MajP: -1 reactions/loyalty
MinP: --
MinB: +1 reactions/loyalty
MajB: +2 reactions/loyalty

STRENGTH (my house rule, adapted from SuppI):
MajP: -1 to open doors, -1 to hit in melee
MinP: --
MinB: +1 to hit in melee (fighters only)
MajB: +1 damage in melee (fighters only), +1 to open doors

I don't like giving extra bonuses for scores of 18 (and I know Vol. I did it for charisma): it's too big a reward for nothing other than being lucky (it's not like it takes real skill to roll 3 6s) and it encourages players to cheat and/or be dissatisfied with their characters if they don't have uber-scores. IMO the bonus for an 18 should be bragging rights and role-play based ("I'm not just smart/fast/strong, I'm as smart/fast/strong as it's humanly possible to get -- no one is smarter/faster/stronger than me!"), not mechanical.

[RandallS]

I think the B/X modifiers would not only change the feel of the game, but are so different that changes might be required to other things (like monster hit points and combat bonuses) to "relevel" the playing field.

I like both coffee's simple idea and foster1941's more complex idea for unifying attribute mods, however: unification without inflation.

[Arminath]

I think the modfiers should stay as in M&M with the addition of a -1 to damage for any character of 8 strength or less and +1 to damage for Fighting-men of Strength 16 or greater.

[coffee]

Jun 18, 2008 21:57:49 GMT -6 Arminath said:

I think the modfiers should stay as in M&M with the addition of a -1 to damage for any character of 8 strength or less and +1 to damage for Fighting-men of Strength 16 or greater.

I could live with that.

You could also look up Gary's house rules, where he had a similar melee bonus, as well as a bonus spell for Clerics with high wisdom, etc.

You could rationalize it as what Gary would have done, had he had more time to work on it.

[Finarvyn]

I do like the idea of looking again at Gary's House rules set.

I never really liked the +3 to -3 option. but was using it more like an example.

Coffee's simple model looks pretty good:
3-6 = -1
7-14 = +0
15-18 = +1
But I'm still hung up on that "9-12 is average" thing, which is why the Holmes DEX chart is so appealing.

Ah ... the pressure! :-)

[jrmapes]

Here is Gary's rules for those that have never seen them,

Gary's OD&D House Rules

For a score of 15 or over:
STR: +1 to hit and +1 to damage if a Fighter
INT: +1 1st level m-u spell
WIS: +1 1st level cleric spell
DEX: +1 to AC, and +1 to move silently
CON: +1 HP per HD (same as a Fighter class gets, +2 if a Fighter)
CHA: +1 (positive) on reaction checks

HPs: Characters are only unconscious at 0 HPs. For each level a character may have a minus HP total equal to the level, so a 1st level PC is dead at -2, a 2nd level at -3, etc.

IMO I would go with WB down the line and if there were any changes I would use Gary's house rules as the default guide.

Jerry

[mythmere]

Jun 19, 2008 16:52:43 GMT -6 jrmapes said:

Here is Gary's rules for those that have never seen them,

Gary's OD&D House Rules

For a score of 15 or over:
STR: +1 to hit and +1 to damage if a Fighter
INT: +1 1st level m-u spell
WIS: +1 1st level cleric spell
DEX: +1 to AC, and +1 to move silently
CON: +1 HP per HD (same as a Fighter class gets, +2 if a Fighter)
CHA: +1 (positive) on reaction checks

HPs: Characters are only unconscious at 0 HPs. For each level a character may have a minus HP total equal to the level, so a 1st level PC is dead at -2, a 2nd level at -3, etc.

IMO I would go with WB down the line and if there were any changes I would use Gary's house rules as the default guide.

Jerry

AWESOME IDEA!
I may use these for the core book as well.

How does he handle unconsciousness; the AD&D bleed-out, or they're just unconscious?

[calithena]

I third Jerry. Another post in a second.

I think Gary had folks die at zero but I can't remember where I read that. I use the save vs. death at zero, myself, to determine death vs. unconsciousness.

[jrmapes]

The times I played at his table it was unconscious at zero, go directly to jail, do not pass go... and the rest of the rules were as I remember.

However, that was in the late 80's to mid/late 90's and there is the possibility he was making it a little harder on us at the time, I tend to doubt that though. He may have softened up a bit since then. But I again tend to doubt it. However, Paul Stromberg or someone that played with EGG in the last few years should be able to confirm. I wish I could confirm it but, sadly, I never had the opportunity to sit at his table after that.

Jerry

[Finarvyn]

If we have this list of +1 bonuses for 15 and up, should there be a similar list of -1 for 6 and below?

I like the idea of trimming down all those charts into a couple of plusses!

[philotomy]

I remember a Gary house-rule that you could survive to -(your level + 1). Thus, a 3rd level Fighting Man is unconscious at zero, and dead at -4. I don't remember where I read that, though -- maybe a thread at DF.

[philotomy]

Regarding the bonuses/penalties, I voted for the LBB version. That said, if it's modified, I think +1/-1 should be the most common modifier, with +2 being a very special case, if it's used at all (e.g. you can get a +2 with an 18 and being the right class). I'd also suggest that modifying the % adjustment to XP would be a good place to tweak. You can increase the reward for good prime requisites without mucking up the balance of bonuses/penalties.

[mythmere]

As a point of reference, the Core Rules are now using Gary's house rules (I think there's an AC adjustment and a damage adjustment that are "new," but they follow the same pattern as the others).

[TheMyth]

I was just looking at the perk list for having a high score in the prime requisite and thought of the following to meld with suggestions offered upthread:

13+: +5% xp bonus
15+: class perk (Fighting-Men get +1 to hit with all melee weapons, Magic-Users get +1 1st level spell, and Clerics get +1 1st level spell)
18+: +10% xp bonus (replaces previous +5%...but does not include bonus for high Wisdom if that rule is kept)

This makes rolling an 18 something worth getting. It also tweaks the rules just enough to avoid exact chart duplication (if such a thing is still an issue).

The penalties for having a low prime requisite might remain:

7-8: -5%
4-6: -10% (total, modifiable by Wisdom)
3: class deficiency (Fighting-Men get -1 to hit with melee weapons, Spell Casters lose access to highest level of spells castable at that particular level)

[busman]

Jun 21, 2008 1:25:22 GMT -6 TheMyth said:

3: class deficiency (Fighting-Men get -1 to hit with melee weapons, Spell Casters lose access to highest level of spells castable at that particular level)

Overall I like the idea, but for this part. There's basically no reason for this. If there is a serious class only penalty for having a score this low, then no one would play that class with a score in this ability. For completeness sake, sure, but it's basically saying, reroll, or play another class if you get this score, which is maybe just what someone wants.

[Arminath]

I don't think Strength should give a bonus to hit, but advocate a bonus to damage. Strength doesn't make you more competant, but does make your strikes land harder when you do hit and inflcit more damage.

On the penalty side of low scores - I like the idea of a class penalty - that would get rid of all the 'role' players that don't have any handicap, but like to make the excuse they're playing to their scores when they do something obviously detrimental to the party (I might be a Magic-user, but I only have an 8 Intelligence so my character would have Fireballed the group of orcs even though the Fighting-man was in the middle, he's just not very smart'.

[ffilz]

Arminath: having penalties won't change the behavior of those "role players." It will just increase their "challenge."

Frank

[Deleted]

Jun 18, 2008 18:30:47 GMT -6 foster1941 said:

The -3/+3 bonus chart is one of the things I most dislike about Moldvay+ Classic D&D so I absolutely wouldn't want to see it incorporated into S&W. If you want to go with a unified table (and I don't necessarily think you should" "unified" anything is horribly overrated and leads to sterile, formulaic games) I'd prefer something like the following:

3-6: major penalty
7-8: minor penalty
9-12: no adjustment
13-14: minor bonus
15-18: major bonus

With different bonuses and penalties for each stat (and no requirement that every stat have a full set of bonuses and penalties -- or any bonuses or penalties at all -- or that the bonuses and penalties necessarily mirror each other)

PRIME REQUISITE:
MajP: -20% from earned XP
MinP: -10% from earned XP
MinB: +5% to earned XP
MajB: +10% to earned XP

CONSTITUTION:
MajP: -1 hit point per die (minimum 1)
MinP: --
MinB: will withstand adversity
MajB: +1 hit point per die

DEXTERITY:
MajP: --
MinP: -1 to hit with missiles
MinB: +1 to hit with missiles
MajB: --

CHARISMA (the only one that doesn't track exactly from Vol. I):
MajP: -1 reactions/loyalty
MinP: --
MinB: +1 reactions/loyalty
MajB: +2 reactions/loyalty

STRENGTH (my house rule, adapted from SuppI):
MajP: -1 to open doors, -1 to hit in melee
MinP: --
MinB: +1 to hit in melee (fighters only)
MajB: +1 damage in melee (fighters only), +1 to open doors

I don't like giving extra bonuses for scores of 18 (and I know Vol. I did it for charisma): it's too big a reward for nothing other than being lucky (it's not like it takes real skill to roll 3 6s) and it encourages players to cheat and/or be dissatisfied with their characters if they don't have uber-scores. IMO the bonus for an 18 should be bragging rights and role-play based ("I'm not just smart/fast/strong, I'm as smart/fast/strong as it's humanly possible to get -- no one is smarter/faster/stronger than me!"), not mechanical.

I voted for brilliant idea above and foster is the one that had it. I think this is a really great idea.