Sleep Spell and rhythm

[korgoth]

Does your low-level party's rhythm of exploration revolve around the Sleep spell? I ask because it is so powerful at low levels, it seems as though it behooves the adventurers to take as many Sleep spells as possible and retreat from the dungeon once they are used up.

What have your experiences with this been?

[makofan]

The last party I played in (Fighter, Magic user, Cleric, Thief) got into a rhythm/pattern. Use SLEEP the first time the party is outnumbered (sometimes by the second encounter!), then continue until the front line fighters (cleric and fighter) are wounded.


Mind you, we went through four fighters and five clerics before the thief made second level so maybe we weren't cautious enough.

[Finarvyn]

"Sleep" is certainly powerful, but with saving throws and a limited number of levels affected I find it doesn't tend to totally upset game balance. And frankly first level characters need something with an edge or they die in a hurry.

[korgoth]

admin said:

"Sleep" is certainly powerful, but with saving throws and a limited number of levels affected I find it doesn't tend to totally upset game balance. And frankly first level characters need something with an edge or they die in a hurry.

Do you allow a saving throw for Sleep when not using Supplement I?

[dwayanu]

BTB, there are no saving throws*. Cast against low-level PCs, it can easily produce a TPK.

I've found that it is indeed the "heavy weapon section," and parties tend to head for home not long after using it. They'll probably go on until the fighters and clerics are wounded.

*Pre-Supplement I, I guess it depends on how one interprets "always affects."

[Zulgyan]

korgoth said:

admin said:

"Sleep" is certainly powerful, but with saving throws and a limited number of levels affected I find it doesn't tend to totally upset game balance. And frankly first level characters need something with an edge or they die in a hurry.

Do you allow a saving throw for Sleep when not using Supplement I?

Good question... got me thinking... this thread will become hot.

[calithena]

The 'retreat from the dungeon' thing is the problem. More later.

[jrients]

My experience has been that where sleep was available at low level & allowed no save and retreat & redeployment to the adventure zone was easy, then you could count on smart adventurers to fall back when all sleep spells were expended. Only in regions heavy in skeletons and zombies would this protocol be ignored, as the cleric would become the heavy artillery in those cases.

[dwayanu]

The "undead factor" definitely shapes decisions. An Acolyte, though, has only about a 58% chance of turning skeletons. If that fails, then the party is back to square one: Can we survive this fight and the likely encounters on the way back to the surface?

Saving a "Sleep" for that return leg is a tactic that can work well.

A skilled player can use "Charm Person" to even greater long-term advantage, but that calls for more cunning.

[tgamemaster1975]

korgoth said:

admin said:

"Sleep" is certainly powerful, but with saving throws and a limited number of levels affected I find it doesn't tend to totally upset game balance. And frankly first level characters need something with an edge or they die in a hurry.

Do you allow a saving throw for Sleep when not using Supplement I?

I do not allow a saving throw for Sleep even though I use quite a few other things from Supplement I.

[tgamemaster1975]

dwayanu said:

The "undead factor" definitely shapes decisions. An Acolyte, though, has only about a 58% chance of turning skeletons. If that fails, then the party is back to square one: Can we survive this fight and the likely encounters on the way back to the surface?

Saving a "Sleep" for that return leg is a tactic that can work well.

A skilled player can use "Charm Person" to even greater long-term advantage, but that calls for more cunning.

We typically have at least 3 Magic-Users in a party so at low levels there are both Sleep and Charm Person available, but don't forget Charm Monster is a 4th level spell. So Charm Person is not often of much use in my dungeons, but is frequently useful in wilderness or town adventures.

We also usually have two or three clerics, even with skeletons they have a better chance.

[tgamemaster1975]

korgoth said:

Does your low-level party's rhythm of exploration revolve around the Sleep spell? I ask because it is so powerful at low levels, it seems as though it behooves the adventurers to take as many Sleep spells as possible and retreat from the dungeon once they are used up.

What have your experiences with this been?

They try to keep a Sleep spell for the exit from the dungeon, but with a typical party of 4 fighting-men and 2-3 clerics they are prepared to make it out if the last sleep spell is used near the very beginning of the move to exit.

[philotomy]

My game uses the Holmes rules for scroll creation, which means low-level casters can make scrolls of spells they know, given the time/money/components. The availability of scrolls as a fallback seems to keep the low-level parties in the dungeon, longer.

I make creating and using scrolls a pain the butt, though. If the PC starts making very many, I either up the price (components getting hard-to-find), or I incorporate delays (components have to be obtained from another city), or I make components part of the game (you need bone-dust from a ghoul...) I require that the player record where the scroll is kept, so I can evaluate how long it takes to get it out, whether it gets damaged due to events, et cetera. I also require good lighting when casting from a scroll.

(For the record, sleep spells in my game don't allow a saving throw.)

[dwayanu]

re Charms: Note that "persons" for this purpose include kobolds, goblins, orcs, hobgoblins, gnolls and "all two-legged, generally mammalian figures near to or less than man-size, excluding all monsters in the 'Undead' class."

[tgamemaster1975]

dwayanu said:

re Charms: Note that "persons" for this purpose include kobolds, goblins, orcs, hobgoblins, gnolls and "all two-legged, generally mammalian figures near to or less than man-size, excluding all monsters in the 'Undead' class."

True, of course, however; in my dungeons even a first level party may run into an ogres, trolls, the undead, the classical greek monsters, lycanthropes and dozens of other creatures that a Charm person won't effect.

[foster1941]

I never saw the pace of exploration dictated by sleep (or cure) spells in any of the home, game-club, or convention games I played in until I re-started playing AD&D with a new group in 2004, at which time it was the universally accepted conventional wisdom, and has been ever since. I've mentioned this a couple times before in other threads -- there seems to have been a huge shift in the conventional wisdom of "how the game is played" sometime between c. 1992 (when I pretty much gave up on D&D the first time around) and 2004.

(As for what did dictate the rhythm of exploration, there was no single factor, but rather a combination -- hit points, availability of spells/magic (which includes, but isn't necessarily limited to sleep and CLW -- shocking as it sounds in the modern paradigm, players often took spells other than those two), encumbrance (once you've got enough treasure that you can't carry any more you might as well go home), achievement of goals, and (probably the single most important factor) real-world time -- the party keeps exploring until it's getting near time to end the session, then they head home.)

[dwayanu]

Until you mentioned it, I hadn't really thought about it being a newer trend. It hasn't been confined to newer players, either. Interesting!

[ffilz]

I've sort of seen this. I blame some of it on several aspects of that newer edition of the rules. One thing that has changed in newer games (and not just that newer edition of the rules, I was playing this way prior to that with other games) is matching challenge. In the days of old, even high level adventures had rooms full of orcs. Another aspect I see affecting the new edition is how wands are priced. In the old days, the wand of fireballs allowed the high level mage to keep on ticking, and save his spells for the more serious encounters. Even at low levels, wands allowed the mage more options.

Frank

[Deleted]

Sleep is indeed a very useful spell (at all Magic-User levels). I do, however, agree with foster1941 about the pace & playing of the game itself...I shudder when I go to a local hobby shop & see all the youngins' playing 3.X. One day I asked if I could watch, & they agreed (I had a little game experience with 3.X already). I sat for about an hour, & what I got out of it was a headache & a lot of unanswered questions. It just seemed, well, boring. No imaginative descriptions, no talking in character, nothing. No FUN. It seemed to me like a basic turn based board game, without the board. I've always been a staunch supporter of "when at the table, table yourself". Speak as your character (I'm not talking about funny accents, either); just respond as "I'll try to pick the lock, or "dwayanu, throw the torch, quick!!" Now, it just seems like-DM: "What do you wan't to do?" John Doe:"Elbiuus walks to the door; can he try to pick it??". DM: "Let me see" (picks up the newest copy of Player's Handbook III); "Well, the book says that since you character is a Paladin Ranger Rogue Barbarian Bard, that gives you a +2 circumstance bonus to pick the lock with your left middle toe". John Doe: "Great! Elbiuus attempts to pick the lock". DM: "You Fail". Now where's all the fun gone, folks. This might sound strange, but I actually miss the days of D&D being the "Devil's game". Kept it kinda clannish--clandestine, if you will. It's just too, well, tame now. These kid's today couldn't get lost in their own car if they wanted to, let alone a good 'ol fashioned steam tunnel. That's my own opinion on why D&D has changed: acceptance & normality (& MMOG's have a lot to do with it too, as far as I'm concerned). Anyway, just my opinion, & some rambles to boot... ;D

[coffee]

Ramble away; we're with you!

We few, we band of brothers...

That's another thing I like about this forum. Sure, we're growing, but we're still small and chummy; a self-selected few, if you will. I think a part of old school could be that 'us against them' or the 'they just don't understand' mentality.

Or is that just me?

[makofan]

You guys have no appreciation of 3rd edition. Look, you know it takes 13.3 encounters to gain a level (or so the DM is instructed), and you are supposed to rest after every 4 encounters (as the DM guide tells you because the 5th encounter will probably kill somebody, and you are not allowed to kill players in 3rd edition - it's bad form). Now because all Wizards (that's what they call magic users now) have an 18 Int (how could you play one otherwise?) you get a bonus 1st level spell for your high prime requisite. Then you specialize in an areas (say Enchantments) which gets you another bonus spell. So you take 3 Sleep spells and use 1 per encounter. Now what are you to do for the 4th encounter?

This is a quandary. Do you actually have a fight without automatically sleeping all the monsters? Hopefully you have a backup plan like the scroll of sleep that you made before you started (using your Scribe Scroll feat). Okay, now you're done, its time to whine to the DM about a safe place to hole up. Lather rinse repeat. How can this be boring? Get in the game!

[jrients]

Respected Colleagues,

I understand the new versions of D&D are not to everyone's tastes, but I would kindly suggest that the inadequacies of 3.x or any other later development in D&D falls well outside the mission of this site. I like the new D&D just fine and one of the reasons I hang out here rather than DragonsFoot is because everyone on this board seems willing to take OD&D on its own terms. A minority of the otherwise nice and very talented regulars at DF drove me away by their constant haranguing against a game no one there was asking them to play.

I am not a 3.x partisan and am personally aware of many flaws in its design and implementation. However, I have had a heckuva a lot of fun with it as well. And so while it would be obnoxious of me to ask everyone to self-censor, I merely would offer that perhaps in this particular venue an ounce of enthusiasm for OD&D is worth more than a pound of disdain for any later version of the Game. Surely keeping positive and focused serves the best interest of all here?

Please accept these comments in the spirit intended: not as a chide but as a friendly suggestion.

[Deleted]

Suggestion noted.

[makofan]

No problemo - I also happen to DM 3rd edition with my friends - sometimes humor doesn't go down as well as you intended (Although my example was from a real life experience!)

[dwayanu]

Thinking about it, I notice that a couple of things have been almost "off the menu" lately: recon while avoiding engagement, and employment of hirelings/henchmen.

I must blame myself as referee. The players had a firm notion of their characters as "heroes." Running into challenges too tough to handle their preferred way simply led them to timidity.

Next time, I'll pay more mind to suggesting neglected strategies that classically have been part of skilled play. Perhaps I should slate time for post-game discussion (rather than playing right to the time folks must be off). There are also subtle ways to make such "suggestions" in-game (e.g., via interaction with NPCs).

[makofan]

I really like hiring cannon fodder and NPC's and attack dogs and mules and stuff. It gives the DM so much more opportunity for creativity.

[Deleted]

So was mine! Seriously though, for me, not my cup of tea, & that's coming from experience (I played it for about a year after returning stateside , plus the DL campaign setting AND the Miniatures Handbook). However, to me, the dynamic had just changed too much for my taste. I did have fun when I ran the game (I'll tell you about my 6 mo. DL/Star Wars crossover campaign I ran sometime ). Anywhoo, no offense meant. If it makes you happy, & you have fun, well, that's the important part.


But I still miss the "Devil's game". ;D

[jrients]

oltekos said:

But I still miss the "Devil's game". ;D

At the time of the Satanic Panic I was a wee lad in a small town with a tiny gaming group of school chums. We lived in fear that the school administration would take one 700-Club watching teacher's opinion to heart and ban our D&D books. Once a friend's Mom threatened to burn all the gaming books in the house. That was particularly painful because Dave was borrowing my set of AD&D books to DM a campaign! So while there's much naughty charm to the Devil's Game era, I probably wouldn't want to run that gauntlet of obstacles again.

[Deleted]

Man, if some lady threatened to burn MY books, my dad (or mom, for that matter) would've stuck her; we all just gave it right back to 'em. That's one reason I'm not fond of (or trust, frankly), any type of zealot (no matter what their religion). We had a store up on Fruitville named "Hobbytown, U.S.A." (a chain, apparently), that opened in the early '90's. When one of the local fundamentalist churches caught wind of what they sold, they had a serious s**t fit. Flyers, nasty letters, threats...you name it. Finally the store capitulated from the pressure & closed. I don't think that church knew what hit them after that one (I won't go into details). As an aside, the local pastor & demagogue got caught with his pants down (literally), & also got caught embezzling money. That church is now a parking lot, & that pastor has got to be dead by now.

[tgamemaster1975]

jrients said:

Please accept these comments in the spirit intended: not as a chide but as a friendly suggestion.

I had a great chuckle from the posts you are responding to, but that was partly because I saw some of that long before WotC came along and your point is well taken and appreciated. We all need that reminder from time to time.