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Post by badger2305 on Dec 7, 2007 8:20:18 GMT -6
One of the things I am considering doing in future campaigns is to make paladinhood subject to a Quest. In other words, if you want to be a paladin, you first have to show your devotion in the form of successfully completing a quest. Until then, you are a fighter, and progress as one. After the quest is successfully completed, you become a paladin, at whatever level your experience points would be.
As a referee, you then get to use the Quest as a means of inculcating the values you want the Paladin to practice. The Quest itself does not need to take forever, but long enough to make it worthy of the effort. It also provides a great hook for adventures for the party.
This may seem overly directive, but I think it'll help players get into the mindset of the paladin so that when their character is a paladin, they will act like one (whatever you think that should be).
Comments welcome.
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Post by coffee on Dec 7, 2007 10:14:11 GMT -6
One of the things I am considering doing in future campaigns is to make paladinhood subject to a Quest. In other words, if you want to be a paladin, you first have to show your devotion in the form of successfully completing a quest. Until then, you are a fighter, and progress as one. After the quest is successfully completed, you become a paladin, at whatever level your experience points would be. As a referee, you then get to use the Quest as a means of inculcating the values you want the Paladin to practice. The Quest itself does not need to take forever, but long enough to make it worthy of the effort. It also provides a great hook for adventures for the party. This may seem overly directive, but I think it'll help players get into the mindset of the paladin so that when their character is a paladin, they will act like one (whatever you think that should be). Comments welcome. I think that's awesome. Have an exalt for that! I remember back in AD&D, one of my old DM had ruled that a fighter couldn't be knighted until he reached at least 4th level. Well, that DM had started with OD&D, so he remembered 4th level as Hero and that was that. You could work something like that in to your quest scenario also -- i.e.; must complete a quest and be at least 4th level. Or, you know, not; that's just my idea. Anyway, good idea.
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Post by Finarvyn on Dec 7, 2007 21:34:13 GMT -6
Not bad at all; I like the "4th level rule".
I remember that Bards had a similar restriction, where a player had to advance before you became one. Rangers could be similar, specializing at 4th. It might also be useful to add the Druid to the list, where a player would have to advance as a Cleric until 4th level before switching to Druid.
An interesting concept.
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Post by badger2305 on Dec 9, 2007 9:55:00 GMT -6
Not bad at all; I like the "4th level rule". I remember that Bards had a similar restriction, where a player had to advance before you became one. Rangers could be similar, specializing at 4th. It might also be useful to add the Druid to the list, where a player would have to advance as a Cleric until 4th level before switching to Druid. An interesting concept. I had to think about that for a moment, and then realized I was reading it as if we were talking about Prestige classes from D&D3.14159... So if Paladins use the same experience point progression as normal Fighters, then any switch would keep the same level. Hmmm. Hmmm.
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Post by dwayanu on Dec 9, 2007 11:48:16 GMT -6
The book offers no different XP progression. It refers to candicacy of fighters Lawful "from the commencement of play." "If such fighters elect to they can then become paladins." (emphasis added)
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Post by coffee on Dec 9, 2007 13:48:34 GMT -6
Yeah, that was what I remembered, the 'become paladins' bit. I had always wondered about that.
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Post by James Maliszewski on Dec 9, 2007 23:58:13 GMT -6
The book offers no different XP progression. It refers to candicacy of fighters Lawful "from the commencement of play." "If such fighters elect to they can then become paladins." (emphasis added) I've always found that approach to paladinhood to be quite interesting, both mechanically and thematically. Mechanically, it's nice because it makes it quite easy to be able to deal with individuals who either choose to take up the mantle of the paladin at some point later in their lives, as well as those who "fall from grace" and are unable to keep up the high standards of the class. Thematically, it's interesting, because it implies that paladinhood is a vocation, rather than some kind of state into which one is born. It's a calling, whether it be literally divine or not, and for me that works very nicely with how I view classes in D&D -- as at least partially states of mind, not merely states of occupation.
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Post by coffee on Dec 10, 2007 1:50:43 GMT -6
I've always found that approach to paladinhood to be quite interesting, both mechanically and thematically. Mechanically, it's nice because it makes it quite easy to be able to deal with individuals who either choose to take up the mantle of the paladin at some point later in their lives, as well as those who "fall from grace" and are unable to keep up the high standards of the class. Thematically, it's interesting, because it implies that paladinhood is a vocation, rather than some kind of state into which one is born. It's a calling, whether it be literally divine or not, and for me that works very nicely with how I view classes in D&D -- as at least partially states of mind, not merely states of occupation. I think that was the intent, particularly for subclasses (at least originally). The way I plan to run subclasses (if I even allow them) is as the base class with special effects. I've been re-reading Men & Magic lately and trying to filter out all of the other editions I've read (and they have been many...). I think Class (as far as character goes) is a sufficiently different type from the others, and not a narrow application as later editions would have it. Anyway, that's where my head's at right now.
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Post by makofan on Dec 10, 2007 9:44:03 GMT -6
I was thinking of one of teh recent Star Wars movie - "Return of the Clowns" or something, where Anikin slaughters the entire Tuskaan Raider camp while rescuing his mother. I think a paladin would have rescued her, and even though she died, just left with her, not slaughtering the entire village. This is analagous, I think, to a paladin in combat - not to cut down the fleeing, the defenceless, etc
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Post by doc on Dec 10, 2007 14:45:46 GMT -6
This is why it isn't a good idea to give a kid with no ability to control his emotions a weapon made of four feet of plasma that can cut through flesh like an eighty pound weight can go through wet kleenex.
But I digress.
Doc
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Post by coffee on Dec 10, 2007 16:00:28 GMT -6
Yeah, and despite his training, nobody ever accused Anakin of being a Paladin...
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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2007 16:13:25 GMT -6
No, only a Jedi. And that is why they failed...
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Post by Finarvyn on Dec 10, 2007 22:52:35 GMT -6
And that is why they failed... No, the jedi failed because they used their powers for knowledge and defense. The Sith learned to kick butt.....
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Post by coffee on Dec 11, 2007 2:49:28 GMT -6
And that is why they failed... No, the jedi failed because they used their powers for knowledge and defense. The Sith learned to kick butt..... Yeah! Paladins kick butt! And with a Holy Sword, they're immune to magic, so they can REALLY kick butt! That's what a Paladin ought to be: An evil-hatin' cigar-chompin', butt-kickin' badass! (Or, really, 'good-ass', but that sounds stupid.)
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Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2007 16:54:02 GMT -6
Indeed; Defense & Knowledge is overrated anyway. As far as I'm concerned, the Dark Side IS stronger (it worked for Luke when he was whippin' his Daddy's a** ;D).
"I can feel your anger..."
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Post by crimhthanthegreat on Dec 11, 2007 20:37:42 GMT -6
Yeah! Paladins kick butt! And with a Holy Sword, they're immune to magic, so they can REALLY kick butt! That's what a Paladin ought to be: An evil-hatin' cigar-chompin', butt-kickin' badass! (Or, really, 'good-ass', but that sounds stupid.) ;D That is just tooooooooooo good!
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Post by thorswulf on Dec 14, 2007 23:06:43 GMT -6
Wow, there are some great ideas here! While reading this, I remembered something my martial arts buddy Don told me in Tagalog. (Sorry if I mis-spelled that, I'm not sure how it is spelled!) The word, phoenetically is "Walong Hoo Yat". It means "you have no shame", and to accuse someone of this in the Phillipines is pick a very lethal fight. Having no shame means you have no honor, and accordingly your life has no worth.
I mention this because because I think most visualizations of paladins are the european type of knight in armor, astride a mighty steed. Well what about an African Paladin? I think of Shaka, king of the Zulus off hand. How about an Aztec Paladin? He would sacrifice people to his sun god! Law in my opinion is defined by the standard code of morality practiced by a society. So yes, a paladin from some South Pacific island might offer up a virgin to a volcano goddess....
Then there are those Holy Avengers..... Ah yes I see a mighty Aztec paladin resplendant in his Jaguar Knight regalia weilding a massive macana made from obsidian obtained from a sacred mountain in the land of the cannibals. Or even better, a warrior from the Sulu Archipeligo, his body covered in tattoos, armor made from macrame woven by an ancient priestess who lived high in the mountains, and his wickedly sharp bolo, and Kris made from meteoric iron. Who says a +5 holy avenger needed to be made of steel?
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Post by crimhthanthegreat on Dec 14, 2007 23:55:17 GMT -6
Some great stuff there thorswulf, why don't you expand on it some and post it.
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Post by crimhthanthegreat on Dec 15, 2007 16:06:40 GMT -6
Cross quoted from another thread: Not to get too much off topic, but Doc Savage was somebody that I always considered to be a Paladin class character. He didn't swear fealty to a lord, had no strong religious ideals, and he never killed his enemies (though his aides certainly did), but he was the guy who used everything in his power to bring justice to the world and to make it a better place for everybody. He was vastly wealthy, but he made sure that his wealth was distributed to those who needed it most. He expected the best of intentions from everybody, but was wise enough to know evil when he saw it. One could make an argument that the Shadow was also a paladin, though a very different one indeed. Doc Indeed. I'm a fan of the dark Avenger type of paladin myself.... The Batman would be a dark paladin. They call him the "dark knight" and he always fights for good over evil. I like both kinds of paladins, both the "fight for good" and "dark avenger" kinds. They are really like different classes, however. Someone should write up "dark avenger" as its own character class. You are all getting ahead of me here, or rather I am getting behind in posting info here that I have planned to post. The Shadow, Batman, Solomon Kane all are dark knight, dark avenger types.
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Post by crimhthanthegreat on Dec 15, 2007 16:42:25 GMT -6
Continued from above, so far Truth, Honor and Justice have been posted:
I decided to take the time to type up and post my own list of knightly virtues amended with all of the latest available information. It follows here in several posts.
EDIT: BTW This list that follows in several posts is a starting point, if you applied all of it exactly and made the PC toe the line, then it would be extremely difficult for the player to maintain and it would tend to make them all cookie cutter characters; that is why I use these as a starting point in my mind and a guide for the players, but I allow a fair amount of leeway. For instance, I let them know if they are moving close to crossing the line, I give them a lot of feedback and as noted elsewhere, I have them read some of the books that I use as a reference and we discuss before hand what I accept and what I think is going to far. I take this list and leaven it with toughness, pure grit, and pragmatism. Also as I think I noted, I give each Paladin a focus on one or at most two of these and those are the most important for that character with a bit more leeway on the other items. I have found that makes it more fun for the player and the other players. YMMV
************************************************************************************************* Knightly Virtues as exemplified by the Paladin.
Charity: Sharing what is valuable in this life means much more than the giving away or the sharing of materials goods such as, food, shelter and clothing; true generosity means also the giving away or sharing of our time, our focused attention, wisdom and energy. These things are those that help to build and create a strong and rich community of the heart and spirit. A Paladin will seek to aid those in need, giving succor and assistance to such as may be in need of it, giving as his means permit, and without ostentation or display. True charity includes things such as, a word of encouragement which can mean more than gold, and a friendly ear more than gems and jewels. The spirit of Charity may cause a Paladin to forgive a wrong done himself, if the act is truly repented. Charity will help a Paladin to avoid the twin errors of gluttony and greed. Charity, this generosity of spirit also paves the path of mercy and makes that path easier to tread with a difficult decision of justice is required.
Loyalty: A Paladin is known for the unwavering commitment to the innocent and to the ideals that he chooses to live by. There are many places that compromise is expected; however, loyalty is not amongst them. Loyalty is the brother and sister of Honor. When once a Paladin has made a commitment, let him never waiver or withdraw; however, realizing that a Paladin does not compromise his loyalty, let commitments not be made lightly or rashly, but only after deep contemplation and prayer.
Courage: Courage is neither bravado or bluster, the Paladin must have the courage, the fortitude of heart necessary to undertake tasks which are difficult, tedious or unglamorous, dangerous and deadly, and to graciously accept the sacrifices involved. Being a paladin often means choosing the more difficult path, the personally expensive one, be prepared to make personal sacrifices in the service of the precepts you believe and the innocents that you value. At the same time the paladin should seek wisdom for stupidity is the sinister cousin of courage and the paladin must be able to correctly discern between the two. Courage means taking the side of truth in all matters, rather than seeking the expedience of the lie. Seek the truth at all times, but remember to temper justice with mercy or the pure truth can bring grief. The Paladin is charged with the duty of fighting for the right and for good, and is thus destined to face many opponents. The battles may be of the body and the dangers faced by the Paladin my usually be physical, but courage is as greatly in demand and even more important with the subtle opponent of the mind or the spirit. Whatever the circumstances the Paladin must always face the enemy with valor.
to be continued:
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Post by thorswulf on Dec 15, 2007 18:59:57 GMT -6
I'd like to expand on what I have mentioned, but I'm not sure in what manner you would like it. I know I have posted info from White Dwarf about other cultures as background. I guess most of it would be in the perception of good and evil in a culture. Obviously human sacrifice is pretty abhorrent to a modern person, nut it would be a daily routine in some cultures. Likewise some cultural mores about refusing to drink with a stranger or buying a round instead being impossible doesn't lead to knife fights in back alleys- often!
Of course when you open the door to other cultures to D&D you had better be ready for some failry heavy subjects, like drugs. Many ancient cultures used entheogens (hallucinogens used for religious rites) to commune with the spirit world, or underworld. So your Aztec priest or magic user might be eating the Flesh of the Gods (peyote) during some rituals!
In short, different strokes for different folks! Yeah I know that sounds fairly glib, but I think we are all adults here and can discuss such things.
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Post by doc on Dec 15, 2007 21:18:09 GMT -6
What with all this talk about what a paladin is and isn't, I decided to flip through my old Greyhawk book and take another look at the class as originally imagined.
Nowhere in the text does it say, or even imply, that the paladin is (A) affiliated with a religious body, or (B) a member of a knighthood. The paladin is described as a fighting man of rare ability who goes around performing Lawful deeds. This can be translated in any number of ways, though I see it as implying deeds that benefit the stability of civilization and the squashing of Chaos. At eighth level the paladin really kicks into high gear with the abilities to detect evil and dispel evil at will. While he does have to be lawful, there is no mention of the paladin having to adhere to any particular code of chivalry or high virtue. A paladin can drink, smoke, curse, sleep around, gamble, and tease those sissy elf-folk. None of that, I believe, is inherantly non-lawful.
Where people started getting the idea of a paladin as a knight in shining armor was, I believe, when Deities & Demigods came out and Sirs Lancelot and Galahad were written up as having high levels in the Paladin class. People struggling to play accurate paladins saw the write-ups and went, "oh, THAT'S how it's done!" and modeled their characters behavior on the tales of Arthur and his knights. Had the original Deities & Demigods had a writeup for Solomon Kane, we might have seen the paladin class develop in a very different direction indeed.
Doc
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Post by crimhthanthegreat on Dec 15, 2007 23:57:08 GMT -6
I'd like to expand on what I have mentioned, but I'm not sure in what manner you would like it. I know I have posted info from White Dwarf about other cultures as background. I guess most of it would be in the perception of good and evil in a culture. Obviously human sacrifice is pretty abhorrent to a modern person, nut it would be a daily routine in some cultures. Likewise some cultural mores about refusing to drink with a stranger or buying a round instead being impossible doesn't lead to knife fights in back alleys- often! Of course when you open the door to other cultures to D&D you had better be ready for some failry heavy subjects, like drugs. Many ancient cultures used entheogens (hallucinogens used for religious rites) to commune with the spirit world, or underworld. So your Aztec priest or magic user might be eating the Flesh of the Gods (peyote) during some rituals! In short, different strokes for different folks! Yeah I know that sounds fairly glib, but I think we are all adults here and can discuss such things. Expand on it any way that you want, if it is Paladins or Holy Avengers you can place it here or start a new thread and go for it. It is up to you, I would just like to read you ideas, since I think they will be quite cool and informative.
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Post by crimhthanthegreat on Dec 16, 2007 0:02:22 GMT -6
What with all this talk about what a paladin is and isn't, I decided to flip through my old Greyhawk book and take another look at the class as originally imagined. Nowhere in the text does it say, or even imply, that the paladin is (A) affiliated with a religious body, or (B) a member of a knighthood. The paladin is described as a fighting man of rare ability who goes around performing Lawful deeds. This can be translated in any number of ways, though I see it as implying deeds that benefit the stability of civilization and the squashing of Chaos. At eighth level the paladin really kicks into high gear with the abilities to detect evil and dispel evil at will. While he does have to be lawful, there is no mention of the paladin having to adhere to any particular code of chivalry or high virtue. A paladin can drink, smoke, curse, sleep around, gamble, and tease those sissy elf-folk. None of that, I believe, is inherantly non-lawful. Where people started getting the idea of a paladin as a knight in shining armor was, I believe, when Deities & Demigods came out and Sirs Lancelot and Galahad were written up as having high levels in the Paladin class. People struggling to play accurate paladins saw the write-ups and went, "oh, THAT'S how it's done!" and modeled their characters behavior on the tales of Arthur and his knights. Had the original Deities & Demigods had a writeup for Solomon Kane, we might have seen the paladin class develop in a very different direction indeed. Doc You are quite right, and that is why I do model paladins after Solomon Kane as I have mentioned. For instance, I am posting a lot of stuff that can be relevant to paladins but I am not suggesting that anyone use all of it. On the other hand, Solomon Kane for instance has a very highly developed sense of justice but is a bit light on mercy as one example. I think that the paladin class has a dozen or more directions that it can run. I use several and I hope to have more to use as people keep posting their ideas in this thread.
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Post by crimhthanthegreat on Dec 16, 2007 0:35:11 GMT -6
Continued from above, so far Truth, Honor, Justice, Charity, Loyalty and Courage have been posted:
I decided to take the time to type up and post my own list of knightly virtues amended with all of the latest available information. It follows here in several posts.
EDIT: BTW This list that follows in several posts is a starting point, if you applied all of it exactly and made the PC toe the line, then it would be extremely difficult for the player to maintain and it would tend to make them all cookie cutter characters; that is why I use these as a starting point in my mind and a guide for the players, but I allow a fair amount of leeway. For instance, I let them know if they are moving close to crossing the line, I give them a lot of feedback and as noted elsewhere, I have them read some of the books that I use as a reference and we discuss before hand what I accept and what I think is going to far. I take this list and leaven it with toughness, pure grit, and pragmatism. Also as I think I noted, I give each Paladin a focus on one or at most two of these and those are the most important for that character with a bit more leeway on the other items. I have found that makes it more fun for the player and the other players. YMMV
************************************************************************************************* Knightly Virtues as exemplified by the Paladin.
Nobility: This word is sometimes confused with "entitlement" or "snobbishness" and while that is true of some "nobles" not so with Paladins. In the Paladin code it conveys the importance of upholding ones convictions at all times, especially when no one else is watching. Great stature of character can be gained by always striving towards the ideal virtues and duties of a Paladin which ennobles the spirit and the character grows from dust towards the heavens. Nobility has the tendency to influence others by offering a compelling example of what can be done in the service of right. While a man may be ennobled by a King, the soul can only be ennobled by living according to standards higher and purer than those of the common man. To achieve the Chivalrous Ideal is not possible, but the very striving uplifts the spirit, purifies the soul and marks the true Paladin.
Humility A Paladin values first the contributions of others and does not boast of his own accomplishments, leaving boasting to others. Tell the deeds of others before your own, according them the renown rightfully earned through virtuous deeds. In this way the office of Paladin is well done and glorified, helping not only the gentle spoken of but also all who call themselves paladins. Humility is to not have inconsistent pride or arrogance, but to be modest in one's demeanor without being servile, to have a spirit that acknowledges the truth, whether is it in one's favor or against one. The Paladin that looks upon his life without evasion, or self-deception and exercises the virtue of Truth, will surely be humbled by the vast gulf that lies between the Chivalrous Ideal and the reality of what is. Thus chastened, the Paladin will surely avoid the error of pride.
Excellence The Paladin strives always to do and be his best, no matter what the area of endeavor. They do so not for pride's sake, but rather to infuse even the most mundane task with nobility and thus uplift themselves. Excellence is its own reward; however, it is the path of self-respect and the respect of others.
to be continued:
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Post by dwayanu on Dec 16, 2007 15:35:52 GMT -6
Doc wrote: Where people started getting the idea of a paladin as a knight in shining armor was, I believe, when Deities & Demigods came out... The original paladins were the twelve legendary peers of Charlemagne's court, hence the connotations of chivalry and piety (obviously applicable as well to heroic champions of the Round Table). Given the game's medieval aspect, those implications might have been presumed as clear as those pertaining to clerics and a Church. In any case, it's your game now!
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Post by Deleted on Dec 16, 2007 20:54:04 GMT -6
Paladins as knights in shining armour are a quite valid description of and way to play Paladins, but that is not binding on anyone. We like to play them that way ourselves
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Post by crimhthanthegreat on Dec 16, 2007 21:54:40 GMT -6
Continued from above, so far Truth, Honor, Justice, Charity, Loyalty, Courage, Nobility, Humility and Excellence have been posted:
I decided to take the time to type up and post my own list of knightly virtues amended with all of the latest available information. It follows here in several posts.
EDIT: BTW This list that follows in several posts is a starting point, if you applied all of it exactly and made the PC toe the line, then it would be extremely difficult for the player to maintain and it would tend to make them all cookie cutter characters; that is why I use these as a starting point in my mind and a guide for the players, but I allow a fair amount of leeway. For instance, I let them know if they are moving close to crossing the line, I give them a lot of feedback and as noted elsewhere, I have them read some of the books that I use as a reference and we discuss before hand what I accept and what I think is going to far. I take this list and leaven it with toughness, pure grit, and pragmatism. Also as I think I noted, I give each Paladin a focus on one or at most two of these and those are the most important for that character with a bit more leeway on the other items. I have found that makes it more fun for the player and the other players. YMMV
************************************************************************************************* Knightly Virtues as exemplified by the Paladin.
Faith: A Paladin must have faith in his beliefs, for faith roots him and gives hope against the despair that human failings create. Paladins must have faith in god's love and righteousness and in the ultimate goodness of the innocent, to be loyal, true and constant to anyone with whom he is associated; to conform to both the letter and the spirit of any matter between himself and others and to be true to his word at all times. The Paladin must be true to that which he believes above all else, for with faith comes strength against every adversity and reverse. Faith is the lifeblood of Courage and Nobility; without it, life has no meaning. With faith, no force, not even death, can defeat a Paladin.
Courtesy: Courtesy is one of the virtues of Paladinhood. Courtesty and honesty are cornerstones of the Orders of the Paladin. There are two great threats to courtesy . Those are thoughtlessness and reaction to discourtesy, real or perceived. Guard well against speech without thought. The true test of courtesy comes in attempting courtesy in the face of rude, boorish, discourteous behavior. Always remember that the discourtesy of others is an opportunity to test and proclaim your virtue by sucessfully showing grace under the bond of courtesy in the face of discourtesy.
Prowess To seek excellence in all endeavors expected of a Paladin, martial and otherwise, seeking strength to be used in the service of justice, rather than in personal aggrandizement. Provess is an oft taken for granted or forgotten virtue when discussing the philosophy of the foundations of Paladinhood, but it must remain pre-eminent. Paladinhood is by its very nature a military order and if divorced from the honorable warrior and his code, it loses its force, its hold and its meaning. The exercise of arms is necessary to maintain the Orders of Paladinhood. Prowess at arms is one thing that your character cannot bring you, nor can you will it to be. Your character and will; however, can bring you to the persistence needed to learn the skills of arms and to be of the elite of all fighting men, a Paladin.
Additional ones that I have not yet expanded on, but perhaps should be considered: Chivalry, Chastity, Compassion, Determination, Diligence, Endurance, Forgiveness, Good Cheer, Helpfulness, Honesty, Hope, Kindness, Patience, Perseverance, Piety, Prudence, Sincerity, Temperance, Wisdom, Valor I think most of these are included in my detailed list under one item or another or some like Chastity or Temperance, I would not want to bind on Paladins IMC anyway. Although of course you are free to do so if you want to.
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