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Post by vladtolenkov on Apr 14, 2010 13:22:26 GMT -6
In the Monsters as Playable Races thread people had some pretty strong reactions to the idea of Drow as a playable race. I personally don't feel that way, but I am curious as to how our community here feels about everybody's favorite denizens of the underdark.
In later editions it was a given that Drow would be a playable race, but what about in the editions we like?
Do you think they work better as monsters? Why?
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jacar
Level 5 Thaumaturgist
Posts: 348
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Post by jacar on Apr 14, 2010 13:34:47 GMT -6
Depends on how you feel about alignment or using evil characters in your player group.
Back in the day, we strictly enforced alignment. Player characters had to be good or neutral. They could be law or chaos but there could be no evil in the party. We got into to many arguements with evil characters spoiling the fun. So if you enforce alignment, the Drow would be right out!
Our current group does not strictly enforce alignment. Instead we use it more as a guideline so that players are not dispatching NPCs in a most evil fashion. Anyone could be good. Anyone could be evil. The party is still basically good so there you have it.
It is really an alignment thing and how you enforce it.
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Arminath
Level 4 Theurgist
WoO:CR
Posts: 150
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Post by Arminath on Apr 14, 2010 19:27:56 GMT -6
Because they are a race for power gaming and munchkinism, plain and simple. In a system with such minimal statistical racial abilities as OD&D and even AD&D, playing a race that has so many extra advantages on top of normal elven abilities is just a bit over the top.
Oh, then add in the Magic Resistance...
I disallowed Drow in my games simply due to the fact that a munchkin drow is a horror that can be controlled through the party's own mistrust of the character, but a well-played drow by a decent role player becomes something so unspeakably horrific that it'll make your brain turn inside out and scream.
For my game and campaign now, there aren't any drow, but there are 'dark elves'.
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Post by makofan on Apr 14, 2010 21:32:25 GMT -6
Because they are a race for power gaming and munchkinism, plain and simple. In a system with such minimal statistical racial abilities as OD&D and even AD&D, playing a race that has so many extra advantages on top of normal elven abilities is just a bit over the top. Oh, then add in the Magic Resistance... I disallowed Drow in my games simply due to the fact that a munchkin drow is a horror that can be controlled through the party's own mistrust of the character, but a well-played drow by a decent role player becomes something so unspeakably horrific that it'll make your brain turn inside out and scream. For my game and campaign now, there aren't any drow, but there are 'dark elves'. +1 |
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Post by vladtolenkov on Apr 14, 2010 23:14:20 GMT -6
arminath,
What's the distinction between 'dark elves' in your campaign and drow? What sort of abilities do 'dark elves' have?
Here was my proposal for an OD&D Drow/ Dark Elf (which I was referring to in my game as the Shadow Folk):
Drow (this is pretty much as per the Fiend Folio)
• Infravision (100 ft. range)
• Able to move silently (even in armor).
• +2 bonus to all saving throws vs. magic.
• Drow-made Armor receives an automatic +1 to its AC.
That's it. They DO NOT receive the regular Elf abilities on top of these.
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Post by Falconer on Apr 14, 2010 23:24:51 GMT -6
Drow might have been an interesting/surprising/dangerous gimmick at some point, but now? Ruined by Drizzt and oversaturation in general. Besides, I find them really difficult to DM as monsters. Too many unique powers, magic items, and spells, multiplied by dozens of the buggers. As PCs? Out of the question. I plan to never use them again in any capacity. Regards.
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capheind
Level 5 Thaumaturgist
Posts: 236
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Post by capheind on Apr 15, 2010 0:44:37 GMT -6
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Post by Lord Kilgore on Apr 15, 2010 7:47:42 GMT -6
For reasons already stated, Drow as normally written up are not so great.
Drow written as normal elves but black-skinned and evil are just fine. Merely flavor.
But we don't allow evil PCs.
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Post by vladtolenkov on Apr 15, 2010 9:55:50 GMT -6
I totally understand the "drow fatigue" thing, but I don't feel quite the same way as I've largely been unaware of it.
No one in any D&D game I've ever played has ever played a Drow, and I've never read one of Salvatore's books. My primary interface with them has been through the AD&D G,D,Q series of modules.
I'd agree that even the Fiend Folio presentation of them is pretty overpowered. They make great baddies in my opinion, but I'm not totally opposed to them as a PC race as long as they've been pruned down to a manageable level.
Munchkinism is not what I had in mind and its largely outside my experience as my group is pretty cooperative and not really interested in power gaming.
Anyway, I can see that they are a toy that many players might abuse.
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capheind
Level 5 Thaumaturgist
Posts: 236
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Post by capheind on Apr 15, 2010 17:58:05 GMT -6
As I mentioned in the thread that spawned this one there is very little reason for a Drow to go rogue, EVERYBODY HATES DROW. Could a drow be good "deep down"? yes, would he survive long enough to tell the pitchfork weilding townsfolk that? nope.
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Post by Finarvyn on Apr 15, 2010 18:24:22 GMT -6
I think that every campaign needs some sort of faceless bad guys to beat up on. They can be stormtroopers in Star Wars, orcs in Lord of the Rings or maybe drow in the dungeon. Some creatures where you look at 'em and shoot without having to ask questions first.
Having said that, I can see a game where drow options are out there. My son loves the Dark Elves from the Warhammer world and thinks they are pretty much drow. What I do is to have two breeds -- dark elves and drow -- and tell him that the dark elves are more neutral while the drow are pure evil. I won't let him run a pure evil character, but he can dance on the fence of neutral if he wants.
Just my own solution.
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Post by calithena on Apr 16, 2010 6:09:24 GMT -6
I played a neutral drow cleric of Tyche once. His partner was a young human shaolin monk. They fought monsters.
Drow are tougher than the average PC though, especially with all those spell abilities and stat boosts.
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Arminath
Level 4 Theurgist
WoO:CR
Posts: 150
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Post by Arminath on Apr 16, 2010 9:13:48 GMT -6
arminath, What's the distinction between 'dark elves' in your campaign and drow? What sort of abilities do 'dark elves' have? Here was my proposal for an OD&D Drow/ Dark Elf (which I was referring to in my game as the Shadow Folk): Drow (this is pretty much as per the Fiend Folio) • Infravision (100 ft. range) • Able to move silently (even in armor). • +2 bonus to all saving throws vs. magic. • Drow-made Armor receives an automatic +1 to its AC. That's it. They DO NOT receive the regular Elf abilities on top of these. Sorry I've been busy the last couple of days. Elves in my campaign are faerie creatures, tied to the faerie realm and ultimately beholden to the Seelie Court. 'Dark Elves' are simply elves that have joined the Unseelie Court and have become evil. They look and have the same abilities as any other elf, they're just downright twisted and evil. To be a dark elf is a frame of mind and a lifestyle. There are no 'good' dark elves, they became evil through their deeds and descisions. If a dark elf somehow atones for his evils and is allowed to rejoin the Seelie Court, then he is no longer a dark elf, otherwise, he is one forever. Your Shadow Folk don't seem very bad, but if they are without the any/all the common elven abilities, then why not make them a wholly seperate race and leave the whole 'dark elf angst' behind? |
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Post by vladtolenkov on Apr 16, 2010 10:20:13 GMT -6
Arminath:
Actually, I was sort of thinking that I might get away from the standard associations we have with many of the standard demi-human races by re-naming them.
Drow/Dark Elves=Shadow Folk
Elves=Forest Folk
Dwarves=Mountain Folk
Halflings=River Folk
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Post by apparition13 on Apr 24, 2010 22:38:52 GMT -6
Arminath: Actually, I was sort of thinking that I might get away from the standard associations we have with many of the standard demi-human races by re-naming them. Drow/Dark Elves=Shadow Folk Elves=Forest Folk Dwarves=Mountain Folk Halflings=River Folk Halflings as River Folk? I don't really see it in the lit. I actually like humans as river folk; think of all the river valley civilizations. As for the Drow, I have no problem with them, but they do need to be mechanically changed to reflect the OD&D game. |
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Post by graymouser on Apr 24, 2010 23:35:51 GMT -6
In later editions it was a given that Drow would be a playable race, but what about in the editions we like? Do you think they work better as monsters? Why? Drow definitely work better as monsters than as PC's for several reasons. 1) The inherent racial abilities, if retained, make them more than a match for any other PC race of equvalent class/level. (IIRC, Unearthed Arcana did away with these abilities for PC's.) This was a common problem with the new demi-human races in UA, in fact. Such abilities go towards making the Drow tough opponents for PC's. 2) Their role as being opposed to normal Elves and all other surface dwellers. Their initial presentation in the MM makes it clear that, while they are creatures of legend, they are conceived of as licking their wounds from their failed war with their surface dwelling cousins. Other Elves view them as corrupt and as enemies. Their complete depravity is shown in D3. These things all seem to be linked more to racial character than to alignment. Just as all dragons are described as "greedy" in the MM (even the good ones) all drow would have, at least to some extent, antipathy to all surface dwelling races and revel in decadence. Not exactly characteristics that would work well in a party-based game. 3) The fact that once they show their face outside their under realm Drow will be marked for death. Peasants might flee from them in terror after hearing legends of the dark elves who fought a war with their fairer cousins but word will eventually reach the ear of the local lord who will send out his knights accompanied by his court wizard and cleric to deal with the interloper. May the gods help him if he happens upon a group of Elven NPC's. Other players running normal Elves will need to role-play the inherent distrust and hatred towards them, too. As far as alignment goes, if they are used as PC's they could theoretically be any alignment the player desires. Not that being a Lawful Good Drow is going to matter much since they'll be hunted down by pretty much everyone anyway. I have no problem with PC's being evil and an evil Drow will face much the same fate as his renegade, dual scimitar weilding, good aligned counter part. You might as well ask about a player running a good aligned Troll. People would tend to douse him in burning oil first and ask questions later. If you're going to use Drow in OD&D I'd say that for male Drow the normal Elven ability of acting as a Fighting Man one adventure and a M-U in another should hold fast. Females could have a similar ability but choose between Cleric and Fighting-Man. |
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Post by aldarron on Apr 25, 2010 18:07:37 GMT -6
Halflings as River Folk? I don't really see it in the lit. I actually like humans as river folk; think of all the river valley civilizations. Tolkien's Stoor Hobbits lived along rivers and fished from boats. Gollum was a Stoor. On one hand Drow they feel like these artificial, and unlikely, underground elves. On the other hand they're SEXY undeground elves! Play it as you like to, right? |
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Post by irdaranger on Apr 25, 2010 19:34:43 GMT -6
Halflings as River Folk? I don't really see it in the lit. I actually like humans as river folk; think of all the river valley civilizations. Tolkien's Stoor Hobbits lived along rivers and fished from boats. The Tooks too lived on the Brandywine. I think the "cultural" aspects of the inland Shire Hobbits are often confused with the "racial" inherancies. The Hobbits of Hobbiton are merely one subset of what the race can be like, and of course, Hobbits really are amazing creatures. You can learn all that there is to know about them in a month, and yet after a hundred years, they can still surprise you.  --- On the topic at hand: "Not to Drow." Why? +1 re: broken munchkin fodder. +1 re: Drizzt fatigue. Especially now that WoW has slathered it on even thicker. The former reason is why they're not PCs, but the latter reason is why they're not even in my campaign world. They're just too tired, and I cannot stand to look at them any more. They're also too strongly associated with Forgotten Realms in my mind. But I do have "bad" elves in my campaign. They're just not racially obvious. Elves run the full gamut of alignments, just like Men and Dwarves. Some Elven cultures are also much more prone to Chaos, and turn out chaotic elves with greater frequency. There's at least one Elven Court closely modelled on the Norns from Tad Williams' Memory, Sorrow and Thorn. What all Elves have in common is their merry sense of humor - some of their jokes are just crueler than others. |
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capheind
Level 5 Thaumaturgist
Posts: 236
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Post by capheind on Apr 28, 2010 14:16:37 GMT -6
I have thought about running a very trope-ish D&D setting with lots of elves/dwarves etc, but all the PC's will have to be human, and they find out unsightly things, like Dwarves are all "male" and bud directly from their father beards, and Drow are simply Elves after dark....
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Post by badger2305 on May 18, 2010 7:00:30 GMT -6
Never played D&D with drow as a race, so have never felt the urge to include them in a game. Combined with an aversion to gaming fiction which has lasted a good long time, I've largely avoided the entire issue.
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