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Post by blackbarn on Apr 27, 2009 10:47:50 GMT -6
From what I recall of Conan, combat had plenty of one-hit-kills, and in general seemed more "gory" and "big-hit" than by-the-book D&D combat. It should be possible to emulate this "exaggerated" style of combat without overly complicating the basic OD&D mechanics. Here's one possibility: PCs (and medium sized NPCs) roll 1d6, 2d6 or 3d6 damage for small, medium or large weapons respectively. Choose the best damage die, but if multiple die show the same result, sum them. This allows for the possibility of occasionally dealing much larger damage. The big hit effect. For example, a PC attacking with a two-handed-axe you would roll 3 damage dice. If the results were 4, 4, 6 then it would indicate 8 (4+4 or 6) points of damage. If the results were 6, 6, 6 it would indicate 18 points of damage! Use additional damage dice for larger monsters. For example, a large-sized Ogre would instead use 2, 3 or 4 damage dice with small, medium or large (Ogre) sized weapon attacks, while a huge sized Giant would use 3, 4 or 5 damage dice. A gigantic Purple Worm might simply use 6 damage dice! I'd say it depends how much of D&D (especially monsters) you want in your Hyborian Age. I think D&D already models the one-hit-kills pretty well, just consider that a pict or a pirate or whatever would not be a classed character but just some guy with maybe 1d6 HP. The base rule of 1d6 damage vs. 1d6 HD is a good balance for this, and Conan would do even better if you let better weapons do larger dice of damage. If you're including high-HD monsters like purple worms, I'd compare that sort of creature to Thog from The Slithering Shadow. It's probably one-of-a-kind and Conan would be hard-pressed to even survive a fight against it, much less kill it!
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Post by waysoftheearth on Apr 27, 2009 23:51:08 GMT -6
I think D&D already models the one-hit-kills pretty well That is certainly true for low level characters, but it's not quite the same for higher level characters with 20+ or even 40+ hit points. I was thinking mainly of upping the danger for superheroes -- like Conan -- by giving lower level/hit-dice NPCs a chance of occasionally doing more damage. If that is something you want to go with, then it probably would make sense to have big monsters occasionally deal more damage too, if only to level the playing field. In any case, it's all just ideas. Scrap 'em if you don't like 'em
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Post by blackbarn on Apr 28, 2009 16:58:03 GMT -6
I think D&D already models the one-hit-kills pretty well That is certainly true for low level characters, but it's not quite the same for higher level characters with 20+ or even 40+ hit points. I was thinking mainly of upping the danger for superheroes -- like Conan -- by giving lower level/hit-dice NPCs a chance of occasionally doing more damage. If that is something you want to go with, then it probably would make sense to have big monsters occasionally deal more damage too, if only to level the playing field. In any case, it's all just ideas. Scrap 'em if you don't like 'em Oh I see, you want the threat of "Conan" taking a single hit and dying to be real in-game? I know the stories would describe the danger that way, but in a D&D game that might result in a dead Conan pretty quickly. I figured you only wanted the one-hit-kills to be the enemies of the PCs or insignificant allies.
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Post by geoffrey on Apr 28, 2009 18:33:59 GMT -6
I can think of one lucky shot against Conan. It is in "Iron Shadows in the Moon", chapter II. Conan is facing a band of pirates called the Red Brotherhood, and this happens:
"Before any could answer [Conan], a rat-faced Brythunian, standing behind his fellows, whirled a sling swiftly and deadly. Straight as an arrow sped the stone to its mark, and Conan reeled and fell as a tall tree falls to the woodman's ax...the Cimmerian lying limply on the sward, blood oozing from his head."
Perhaps when hit by a natural roll of 20, the victim must save vs. death ray or get knocked unconscious. Or something like that.
After all, it happened to Conan!
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Post by blackbarn on Apr 30, 2009 4:51:43 GMT -6
Perhaps when hit by a natural roll of 20, the victim must save vs. death ray or get knocked unconscious. Or something like that. After all, it happened to Conan! Actually, I like that idea! Makes a natural 20 into something not directly more lethal than a normal hit (I'm assuming it delivers normal damage), and also accounts for getting knocked out in combat, which I don't think D&D has ever really had a rule for.
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Post by Finarvyn on Apr 30, 2009 18:05:49 GMT -6
Frankly, I like "knocked out" rules a lot better than "killed" rules anyway. My players get really attached to their characters and it's always traumatic when we get character death. Besides, having characters knocked out lends itself to a whole new area of plot twists I can use.....
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Post by thegreyelf on Aug 4, 2009 10:27:59 GMT -6
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Post by Finarvyn on Aug 4, 2009 10:56:46 GMT -6
Very nice so far! I'm looking forward to how this develops and would certainly be interested in a PDF when it was all done. :-)
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premmy
Level 5 Thaumaturgist
Posts: 295
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Post by premmy on Aug 4, 2009 13:13:50 GMT -6
Just a couple of ideas:
- Much is made of Conan's (and other people's) physical superiority in the stories, so maybe the rules should reflect this. Ability-based modifiers should range from +3 to -3 (or at least 2) with a relatively flat distribution like in CD&D. With this in place, one way to handle unarmed warriors - but not sorcerers - would to be double their AC bonus. Truly fleetfooted unarmoured fighters would be a match for armoured opponents of mediocre agility, but might still want to invest the the best types of armour once they have the means.
- Magic: As already mentioned, it's possible in the Hyborian age to cast certain spells by simply drawing the right symbol (and by extension, probably by simply saying the correct words). A possible procedure to handle this: if someone witnesses the use of such magic and explicitly declares beforehand that he's trying to learn it, he can make a roll (say, d20 vs INT for sorcerers, 2d20 vs INT for warriors) to see if he manages to memorize it. After a success, he can try to use the spell any time in the future by making another successful roll to replicate it accurately enough. There are also regular occurences of magical "devices", globes that blow up with a flash, etc.. These two should be usable by all, but anyone not properly trained should make a roll first - an unsuccessful roll indicating a failure whose exact effect depends on the item (drops the ball, inhales the powder, wears belt the wrong way, etc.)
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Post by thegreyelf on Aug 4, 2009 21:03:26 GMT -6
I think all of that is getting too detailed for D&D. The fact that only Fighting-Men can have exceptional strength covers the physical prowess bit, and I don't consider anything written by anyone other than Howard (with certain exceptions made for De Camp/Carter/Nyberg's pure pastiches) to be canon--nothing in those works describes the ease of use of magic in the Hyborian Age. I don't agree with that at all.
As far as the magical devices, they're just magic items. No need for special rules systems--just include it in the writeup of the individual item.
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Post by Finarvyn on Aug 15, 2009 8:46:10 GMT -6
I guess a key question is "what does Average mean?"
Do you define average as being a typical person, or a typical person in a specific setting. In other words, is it fair to say "well, everyone is strong in this world so they roll 5d6 for strength" or do you say instead "hey, everyone is strong but typical strength is still a 10 even if that 10 is better than a 10 in some other campaign."
I first had that thought when I saw the Dark Sun setting and they made a big deal about how tough life was on Athas and so you had to have better characters. The Fremen in Dune were so tough compared to regular guys, but in an "all Fremen" campaign wouldn't they average stats of 10's?
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Post by thegreyelf on Aug 15, 2009 14:08:02 GMT -6
See, I think the beauty of OD&D is that "average" is not tied to an era or setting--it's the score that's important. Thus, if everyone in the Hyborian Age is stronger than men in the modern day, that doesn't mean the average strength in that era is 15. Rather, it means that the average of 9-12 has a higher bar than the average of 9-12 in the modern age.
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Post by Finarvyn on Aug 15, 2009 19:08:08 GMT -6
That's the way I tend to rule it, but I know that some folks want to impose all sorts of plusses for eras. That path leads to the "dark side" and stat inflation. :-)
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Post by thegreyelf on Aug 19, 2009 12:44:28 GMT -6
Well, here you go, folks: my take on an OD&D hack for the Hyborian Age. Like all my other stuff, it's formatted for printing booklet-sized to fit into your OD&D boxes. www.grey-elf.com/dnd/hyborian-age.pdfThere's a distinct possibility, given the artwork I gleaned from online various places, that this might not be up very long, so get it while you can.
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Post by geoffrey on Aug 19, 2009 14:10:43 GMT -6
Well, here you go, folks: my take on an OD&D hack for the Hyborian Age. Like all my other stuff, it's formatted for printing booklet-sized to fit into your OD&D boxes. www.grey-elf.com/dnd/hyborian-age.pdfThere's a distinct possibility, given the artwork I gleaned from online various places, that this might not be up very long, so get it while you can. I just saved it to my computer, and it looks promising indeed! Also, thanks for the mention of Carcosa within.
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Post by snorri on Aug 19, 2009 14:27:56 GMT -6
I had a look and it seems really nice. In will tak time to read it further.
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Post by thegreyelf on Aug 19, 2009 20:09:48 GMT -6
Hope you guys like it. As I said over on my blog, note that as now this is little more than an "OD&D Hack." There's precious little about the Hyborian Age itself in there--that's for two reasons:
1. I expect anyone interested in gaming in the Hyborian Age already has a good grasp on the setting--in the grand tradition of OD&D, this is not a "how to run a Hyborian Age game" guide, but a set of rules and tweaks that I feel help to mimic the proper mood and grit of a Hyborian Age game.
2. If you want info on the Hyborian Age, it's out there in spades, from Wikipedia to the three Ballantine Conan volumes to TSR's original Conan RPG, to Mongoose's outstanding Road of Kings book. I don't want to step on the toes of the folks who have paid good money for the license. You should support them, if for no other reason than it keeps the Hyborian Age out there and visible.
That being said, I may in some future revision (if I do one) include blurbs about the life of Conan similar to those de Camp and Carter used in the old Lancer/Ace series. I haven't decided yet.
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Post by chgowiz on Aug 21, 2009 7:37:19 GMT -6
thegreyelf - Exalted. I liked the approach - it was a good read. I don't know that I'd ever run a Hyborian Age game, but it's nice to have a resource should it come about. And your Chainmail combat system is still poking about my head a bit.
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Post by thegreyelf on Aug 21, 2009 13:38:34 GMT -6
Thanks, glad you liked it!
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Post by Malcadon on Aug 28, 2009 22:44:13 GMT -6
The guy that wrote Road of Kings is the reason I became such a big Robert E. Howard fan. I was reading this site years ago, that perked my interest. Before this, I assumed Conan was just a shallow barbarian character - I had no idea he was such a deep character, and that Howard's writing was so good! Vincent Darlage really has a deep understanding of not just the setting, but also the deeper motives of the characters. The NPCs from RoK was not his doing, so he posted his version of Nafertari on the Mongoose forum. The publish Nafertari was written more as a scheming thief, but Vince took a vary different approach to her. He really knows how to go beyond the surface of a character, and show a really well rounded character. Even if you are not into the d20 system, I highly suggest The Road of Kings for any Conan fan. I really like the Conan books because the advice they give goes beyond the rules, and hold well to the flavor of the Sword & Sorcery genre.
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Post by codeman123 on Sept 29, 2009 17:52:20 GMT -6
WOW!! just WOW! thanks greyelf this is absolutely great very similar to my porject i have been working off and on for awhile now. Thanks for the great resource! EXALT SIR!
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Post by Malcadon on Sept 29, 2009 19:42:54 GMT -6
I posted the Conan hack (along with Quick Primer, S&W, & Carcosa) at the Conan community at Mongoose. Not everyone over there is a fan of old-school gaming or D&D in general (they are quite mixed with what systems they like), but a good number of them really like the hack. It rules like that, that might have kept their interest in D&D years ago, because it the common distaste of anything "Tolkienesque" or "Vancian" that rule our overall game philosophy.
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Post by thegreyelf on Sept 29, 2009 20:53:50 GMT -6
Ugh. I hope I don't get a cease & desist.
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Post by Malcadon on Oct 3, 2009 6:09:51 GMT -6
I dont know if anyone would be interested, but I just got a big announcement from Matthew Sprange of Mongoose Publishing (from this post). I'm not a big fan of the d20 system, so a leather-bound Conan game using the Chaosium system would have been a dream come true! The only downside I can see, is how they wanted to make it all-color. I never been a fan of their all-color art - being more of a fan of the B&W line art from the classic comics. I doubt I would be able to afford (or really use) a 13 book atlas set, but Vincent Darlage is a dame good Hyborian Age scholar - he dose more justice to the Conan line, then even Roy Thomas' Ultimate Guide to the World's Most Savage Barbarian! Having it systemless would have made it sweet - going beyond just a role-playing sourcebook. The Savage World of Conan book would also been good, because it would have added a little more variety to the Conan RPG line. Its a real shame Conan LLC pulled the rug from under them.
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fitz
Level 2 Seer
Posts: 48
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Post by fitz on Oct 3, 2009 6:45:14 GMT -6
Thank Disney and Sonny Bono for screwing it up for all of us. They and their spiritual kith and kin are doing very well at turning copyright from a social good to a straitjacket, thumb-screws and iron maiden. It's not surprising at all that the concept of copyright is losing all credibility; it's becoming more obvious every day that it's being wielded as a walloping-stick for the benefit of the Big Boys rather than as its original conception as a protection for the little authors.
Screw them. Screw them all.
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Post by geoffrey on Oct 3, 2009 8:50:09 GMT -6
Thank Disney and Sonny Bono for screwing it up for all of us. They and their spiritual kith and kin are doing very well at turning copyright from a social good to a straitjacket, thumb-screws and iron maiden. It's not surprising at all that the concept of copyright is losing all credibility; it's becoming more obvious every day that it's being wielded as a walloping-stick for the benefit of the Big Boys rather than as its original conception as a protection for the little authors. Screw them. Screw them all. I thoroughly agree. I think the 1790 U. S. Copyright Act (signed into law by George Washington) got it pretty much right: A work could be copyrighted for 14 years. At the end of the 14 years, the copyright could be extended for another 14 years, and that was it. Thus, all works entered the public domain after no more than 28 years. If it's good enough for George Washington, it's good enough for me. I think it is perfectly ethical to treat all works published (as of today) before Oct. 3, 1981 as in the public domain. We've gone way, WAY beyond protection of authors into outright book-banning. What was done to Mongoose is a case in point. The Grand Inquisitor in Washington D. C. has placed these books on the Index.
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Post by codeman123 on Oct 3, 2009 19:22:09 GMT -6
here is a pirate class that i am working on for my conan od&d campaign. Still needs an experience chart and a few tweaks.
Pirate Pirates are seafaring rogues that are a sub-class of the thief. They must have a Dexterity of 14 and a Strength of 13. They fight, save, and have the hit-die as a cleric. They may only employ swords, daggers and hand axes. The also may only wear leather armor. They get the same bonus as a thief when using certain skills though they advance at +1 every 5th level instead of every 3rd. They also have the backstab ability of a thief but the multiplier goes up every 6th level. For every point of dexterity over 14 opponents subtract 1 to hit a pirate. Pirates also can once per an encounter use a feint. When using a feint they are granted a +1 to attack and are at an additional -1 to hit. This feint ability raises every 4th level by +1. Pirates though they save as a cleric they are treated as saving 4 levels higher.
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Post by thegreyelf on Oct 4, 2009 13:27:44 GMT -6
I'm not a big fan of the d20 system, so a leather-bound Conan game using the Chaosium system would have been a dream come true! I would've organized a full-scale boycott of the line. Runequest/BRP as a system is ass for anything except "Yes/No" black and white resolution wherein "Dodge" is an uberstat. I abhor that system almost as badly as I hate fourth edition, and there is absolutely no way it could ever properly deal with pulpy Hyborian Age combat. Now, the Savage Worlds version? I'd have been all over that like you wouldn't believe. Again we disagree. I didn't buy into second edition specifically because they went away from the full color layout. Absolutely, save that I'd find the money to buy that gazetteer set. Thank Disney and Sonny Bono for screwing it up for all of us. They and their spiritual kith and kin are doing very well at turning copyright from a social good to a straitjacket, thumb-screws and iron maiden. It's not surprising at all that the concept of copyright is losing all credibility; it's becoming more obvious every day that it's being wielded as a walloping-stick for the benefit of the Big Boys rather than as its original conception as a protection for the little authors. This is a common misconception. Robert E. Howard's works are no longer in copyright. Copyright under the Sonny Bono act is life of the author + 70 years. Howard died in 1936. His works went into public domain in 2006,even under the Bono act. However, Copyright is not the same thing as Trademark, for which there are no limits. As near as I can tell, Conan Properties, LLC (which has nothing to do with Howard's estate, iirc, though I could be wrong on that) registered trademarks on Conan, the Hyborian Age, Aquilonia, Zamora, etc., etc., etc.
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Post by thegreyelf on Oct 23, 2009 6:52:30 GMT -6
I've just revised the Hyborian Age OD&D booklet to fix a few errata with the races (a few didn't have level caps and should have), and include an expert from Howard's "The Hyborian Age" essay, as well as a map of the world. I also created bookmarks within the PDF for ease of navigation. You can download the revised PDF here: www.grey-elf.com/dnd/
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Post by Finarvyn on Oct 23, 2009 21:53:06 GMT -6
Just looked over the revised PDF, and it looks really nice. Have an EXALT for your work, Jason!
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