Non-combat statistics

[Finarvyn]

The non-combat stats (Intelligence, Wisdom, Charisma) tend to get overlooked in many campaigns.

Intelligence seems pretty worthless compared to Strength, Dexterity, or Constitution.
1. Languages known are based on Intelligence.
2. Bonus spells for spellcasters only, but no effect for fighters.
3. Maybe Intelligence checks could be done for "general trivia" whenever a character wants to remember something.

On the other hand, Wisdom seems pretty worthless as well unless I play a Cleric. Maybe Wisdon is the "dump stat" where a low value doesn't really hurt you at all.

At least I can surround myself with NPC hirelings if I have a nice Charisma.

What do you think? What can be done to make the non-combat stats more worthwhile in OD&D?

[ffilz]

We often used intelligence for trivia checks and such. I think we did occaisionally use wisdom checks for "are you sure you want to do that?" checks. You're right, at least with old school D&D, charisma is more useful that it seems in more recent gaming.

I've always struggled with this issue. Of course in the original game, the attributes were basically gateways to classes, or provided for hit points and random "can you survive this" checks (constitution), except for charisma, which at least had value for hirelings and henchmen (and the occaisional "can you convince him?" check).

Frank

[murquhart72]

No ability is overlooked by me. I subjectively use all six scores to determine chances of success in non-combat endeavors, as well as NPC reactions, whether or not I give out hints or tips, etc..

[philotomy]

I have an Elf PC in my game that has a high Wis and average Str and Int (a result of 3d6-in-order coupled with the player's distaste for playing clerics). While I haven't implemented any mechanics that use Wis, I have taken to giving her PC bits of unsolicitied "common sense" advice/ideas based on the high Wis stat. It's not that big a deal, but the player seems to appreciate it, and thus feels that the high Wis stat isn't wasted.

[coffee]

I don't think any stat is truly wasted, at least if the player is willing to actually roleplay what he's got.

I've played some strong, dumb fighters in my day and had a blast. But I play them differently than I would if the same character also had a high wisdom.

The only real problem I've seen with such ability scores is that (and this is just in some games I've played) the Charisma on the sheet doesn't matter; the DM and other players go by their perception of the Charisma of the player. I had a character with a very high Charisma, but it didn't do me any good; the DM's NPCs all just treated me as if I were me, the player.

I'm not sure if the above makes sense, but I hope you see what I'm trying to say.

But this leads me to one of the truly rewarding things about roleplaying. Go ahead and give the shy player a character with a high Charisma; who knows, you might just break him out of his shell! Give the less intelligent (or, more likely, less experienced -- they're often mistaken for each other) player a high Intelligence character. It might make him use his brains more.

These abilities, in one way or another, are all social abilities. And roleplaying is a social activity. I don't think special rules are needed to adjudicate people interacting socially; everyone just needs to get into the spirit of the thing and play it out.

Oh, yeah -- and have fun!

[philotomy]

coffee said:

I don't think any stat is truly wasted, at least if the player is willing to actually roleplay what he's got....he only real problem I've seen with such ability scores is that (and this is just in some games I've played) the Charisma on the sheet doesn't matter; the DM and other players go by their perception of the Charisma of the player.

Yes, I know what you mean. My son plays in my OD&D game, and he has a high Charisma fighter. However, when playing with adults, he tends to let the adults "take the lead" in interactions with NPCs. I try to emphasize his PC's high Cha by having NPCs always speak to him first, having allied NPCs defer to him (rather than to other PCs) for instructions, et cetera. He seems to be getting the idea that his fighter should be played as a popular leader-type, but it's difficult for him to overcome the adult/youth thing.

[coffee]

That's beautiful. It's exactly the kind of example I like to give to the few cave-dwelling holdouts that still think roleplaying is somehow "bad" or "evil" or "satanic".

He's a lucky guy, to have his DM looking out for him. It's only better because of the fact that you're his father.

Here's hoping you both have a long, enjoyable, and entertaining gaming life together!

[Finarvyn]

A friend from another board sent me this becasue he's not a member and thus can't post. I hope he'll join up, but in the meantime here's his take on the issue:

I've been reading your OD&D board (not a member yet, as I'm not currently doing anything with OD&D, but I may sign up later), and had one thing to suggest on the non-combat statistics thread.

In TETSNBN, one thing that Charisma affects is undead turning. If I recall correctly, it impacts the number of undead that can be affected. It's one of the few things about 3E that I actually thought had some merit. A cleric with a greater 'force of personality' is going to be better at overawing / commanding undead, or at least those that have minds.

Just a thought.

Mahrundl

[meepo]

Here's hoping he does join in, Fin! Time to corrupt another one...

I may be alone in this, but I actually thing Charisma, despite not really having a huge mechanical impact outside of hirelings, can be one of the most important stats. Assuming a good ref, of course! The example that always pops in my head when the "useless Charisma?" debates begin is the following from Holmes D&D:

Also a female with high charisma will not be eaten by a dragon but kept captive. A charismatic male defeated by a witch will not be turned into a frog but kept enchanted as her lover, and so forth.

Something about those two sentences is so full of the flavor of what makes OD&D so great for me. Mechanics be d**ned, DM Fiat rules all!

[WSmith]

My opinion is that Charisma is THE single most important ability score in OD&D. Hirelings and Henchmen keep you alive. They are sort of like added hit points.

[serendipity]

Ack! My group has never had either hirelings or henchmen. That is, we've hired people before, generally as guides, but they invariably end up being protected in the middle as we circle the wagons 'round (so to speak) once danger rears its ugly head. They're more a liability than a help during battle. I don't really want anyone else to do the dirty work. Though it might be fun to have henchmen, I want to be the hero. That way there's no begrudging me my part of the reward.

[Finarvyn]

If you look in the character generation part of Men & Magic you'll see that Charisma has a modifier for the number and loyalty of hirelings.

I think that the intent is to have those hirelings be somehow special, not simply "redshirt" men-at-arms. So, maybe a character could hire an NPC cleric, thief, or someone of the sort. Probalby any NPC above 1st level would count as a hireling. Maybe a monster will be non-hostile and be willing to join up. The key is that characters could build up a list of followers who can assist in dungeon crawling.

I find those rules most useful when I have smaller groups (maybe 1-2 players) because with larger groups the PCs get in each other's way too often anyway without trying to deal with hirelings.

[Grognard]

/casts thread necromancy

I've been working on creating my own game lately, and was thinking about this very subject and it got me to thinking about how it could be applied to D&D.

Since I use stats closer to the AD&D model than the OD&D model, str, con, and dex all seem to have their roles to play in terms of effecting game play (although I've tried to spread the bonuses out a bit more so players don't feel the need for really high stats), but int and wis much less so. Charisma is important obviously when it comes to hirelings/henchmen, morale, and npc reactions.

More uses for int and wis would be a good thing IMO.

For intelligence, I've added a bonus/penalty to saves against illusion type magic as well as against psionics. I've also been thinking about an ability to decipher ancient texts/languages, codes, maps, etc. based on intelligence, similar to a thief's ability to read spell scrolls.

I like the idea about having a stat that effects turning undead, but haven't decided if I prefer wisdom or charisma for that. I tend to view wisdom as being closer to will power, with charisma more about personal magnetism, which is why I tend to favor using wisdom for this. Since I also use wisdom to determine a bonus/penalty against mind influencing magic (charm etc.) as per AD&D, a turn undead bonus would seem to make sense for wisdom.

For charisma I've been thinking about emphasizing the "favor of the gods" aspect of it, and have contemplated adding in a small bit of magic resistance for high charisma, but I'm not sure on this idea really.

[waysoftheearth]

I too like the idea that each ability score contributes something worthwhile. I ended up using something like this:


Strength
* Determines how hard you hit in combat.
* Determines how much gear you can carry.
* Helps you break down doors.

Constitution
* Determines how much damage you can take.
* Determines how long you can hold your breath.
* Determines how many times you can be revived from less than 1 hit point.

Dexterity
* Determines how hard you are to hit.
* Determines how quickly you react.
* Determines how accurate you are with missiles.

Intelligence
* Determines the number of languages known.
* Determines how whether you can understand how things work.
* Determines the maximum number of arcane spells you can memorise.

Wisdom
* Determines your XP bonus or penalty.
* Determines how many magic items you can master at once.
* Determines the maximum number of divine spells you can know at once.

Charisma
* Determines how many henchmen you can ever call upon.
* Determines how loyal your hirelings are to you.
* Determines how NPCs react to you.

Handling PCs with different intelligence scores can be tricky, since giving some players more info than others tends to be a bit clumsy and to slow play. Handling languages that are known to some PCs but not others is especially tricky. It's all good fun thou

[scogle]

Jul 31, 2007 5:47:39 GMT -6 WSmith said:

My opinion is that Charisma is THE single most important ability score in OD&D. Hirelings and Henchmen keep you alive. They are sort of like added hit points.

I'd agree with this; henchmen are absolutely necessary if you want a half-way decent chance of living to see level five It's one of my favorite things about OD&D because I always have a bunch of NPCs to play with and to drop the players good or awful advice when needed. It's one of the biggest mistakes players make coming from more modern editions: "omgwtfbbq that dungeon was way too hard! You shouldn't be having a TPK on the first session!" [devilish laugh] "well you had some gold left-over and a high charisma you should've hired some meatshields!"

I usually use intelligence for "book-learning" type things with or without a check; I just "wing it" a lot like most of you do since there is no built-in knowedge-check system, but sometimes I'll make a die-roll. I use Wisdom for more "common sense" type stuff in the same way, including nature/dungeon/survival lore (i.e. "The air in this passage seems fresh; Gormi, your high Wisdom lets you realize that this means there should be an opening towards where the wind is coming from") or whatever.

[Deleted]

After the adventure is done, use Wisdom as a basis for how much of each character's share of the treasure they blow in town while celebrating success.

[Deleted]

In "Fantasy Role Playing Games," Holmes talks about using intelligence in terms of saving throws against magic. Evil wizard casts immobilize at you and you roll 3d6 - if the results is your intelligence stat or higher, the spell is effective. If the results are lower, the spell fails. I like the simplicity of this, and could see something similar being done with CHA or WIS.

Holmes suggests the same thing with DEX and STR, but those are combat stats and not germane here.

[ragnorakk]

This is a really interesting thread! Thanks for the Raise Dead, Grognard!

Don't know how much I can add outside of the list posted by waysofthearth...
but a few other things I've used with high or low scores...
Int Haggling, estimating distances accurately, estimating monetary value of something
Wis Gullibilty vs Credulousness
Chr General social stuff, but I really like the Turn Undead option presented above

[jensen]

Jun 6, 2009 21:17:50 GMT -6 waysoftheearth said:

Wisdom
* Determines how many magic items you can master at once.

That's a pretty neat idea; so, characters would also have to 'attune' magic items to themselves before they could use them, yeah? Perhaps involving a Wisdom roll, to see if they could get the magic to work for them... I think that would be a great way to add flavor to a campaign world, by making magic less reliable, something that could change the course of a battle, but ultimately making it dependent on the characters abilities (and the players' imagination, forcing them to come up with clever ways of working around these limitations).