jrients
Level 6 Magician
Posts: 411
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Post by jrients on Feb 2, 2010 11:50:26 GMT -6
Let us start by assuming that dragons are naturalistic creatures, that they are intelligent, carnivorous reptiles. Apex predators in the fantasy ecology, as it were. Other interpretations no doubt abound, but for this thread let us assume that dragons are akin to tyrannosaurs and pteradons.
Let us note that in the normal course of the game dragons can be found many levels below the ground. I believe some wandering monster charts and a few modules will back me up on this.
My question is: what the heck are the dragons doing down there?
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Post by cyclopeatron on Feb 2, 2010 12:22:30 GMT -6
Guarding treasure and eating goblin babies?
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Post by verhaden on Feb 2, 2010 12:26:42 GMT -6
Dragons are large creatures. They require an enormous amount of energy to sustain themselves. The higher up the food chain you go, the greater amount of energy loss there is at each level. Dragons would have to eat constantly in order to maintain themselves.
It's possible that dragons could consume all the available food resources in the region and then end up starving themselves to death like deer or lemmings. This is, of course, is bolstered if you assume that dragons are not solitary creatures--more dragons in an area exacerbate the situation.
Could we assume that dragons go into torpor or hibernation to handle a limited availability of resources? Dragons gorge themselves, mate, and then hibernate until other animal populations rebound.
This could go far in explaining people's firm belief in the existence of dragons, even though the only person to have seen one was Jim-bob's great grandfather from yonder village.
--
You could also postulate that dragons lay eggs in water like frogs. There are hundreds of underground spawning pools for dragon tadpoles. They slowly mature underground and then head to the surface once they reach a certain point of maturity.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Feb 2, 2010 12:30:52 GMT -6
My question is: what the heck are the dragons doing down there? Dragons are greedy creatures that love to hoard treasure for the sake of having treasure. The answer is, of course, they are doing the same thing you are; they're looking for more treasure! |
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Post by badger2305 on Feb 3, 2010 0:25:28 GMT -6
My question is: what the heck are the dragons doing down there? Dragons are greedy creatures that love to hoard treasure for the sake of having treasure. The answer is, of course, they are doing the same thing you are; they're looking for more treasure! I'm always wary of this kind of faux realism. Not saying it doesn't have a place in thinking about things, but be careful of boxing yourself into a corner by your assumptions. In this case, I'm not sure that assuming dragons are apex predators means that the rest of the ecology will make sense. In fact, I'm not sure I would assume an "ecology" at all. You can, if you like, but if we get scientific, then the dragon's ability to fly has got some problems, due to the square-cube law. And that comes before what they eat, or how some breathe lightning bolts. |
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Post by waysoftheearth on Feb 3, 2010 4:46:16 GMT -6
It is probably worth considering whether or not the apex predators in your worlds are high level PCs. If they are, then even the likes of Dragons have some serious competition to think about... Regarding Dragon size, let's not forget that Dragons are generally of sinuous construction, and many younger or smaller examples would have little trouble wriggling through a catacomb of 10' by 10' passages. Others have access to spells or magic items which could be used to reduce their size, shape-change or move extra-dimensionally, and thus facilitate movement into and out of dungeons. However, the key point that many Dragons are intelligent means that a Dragon encountered underground could be doing almost anything at all. So it seems it's less a case of "What are Dragons doing in dungeons?" and more a case of "What is this Dragon doing in this dungeon?" Here's a few ideas that spring to mind: Hiding from a dominant member of the species, Hiding from a powerful group of PCs, Relocating part of its treasure hoard, Establish a new lair from which to terrorise the surroundings, Searching for a place to hibernate safely for 10-60 years, Incubating or hatching eggs, Hunting for food, Searching for rival in hiding, Seeking a mate, Tracking down an item stolen from its treasure trove (or the thieves -- cue the PCs), Hunting for a stolen egg, Looking for an errant hatchling, Patrolling its established territory, Negotiating with other powerful dungeon denizens, Investigating a new-found dungeon, Devouring dungeon denizens, Looting the dungeon's treasures, Sleeping or hibernating, Gone to ground with the virulent Draconian 'flu, Rearing or guarding hatchlings, Collecting rare components for magical research, Under a magical geas to (do any of the above...), Under a magical charm to guard an entrance or locale, Feebleminded and lost underground, Imprisoned (and angry about it) in a deep undground chamber. And so it goes on... imagine what you could come up with  |
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jjarvis
Level 5 Thaumaturgist
Posts: 278
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Post by jjarvis on Feb 3, 2010 9:24:58 GMT -6
Dragons are basking in the Ka energies that are more prevalent deeper into the earth one travels. That's why a lot of "Mad Wizards" do so as well and why those Mad Wizards allow huge dungeons to grow beyond seemingly reasonable needs: to keep the dragons busy while the Wiz does his thing.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Feb 3, 2010 9:36:50 GMT -6
I'm always wary of this kind of faux realism. Not saying it doesn't have a place in thinking about things, but be careful of boxing yourself into a corner by your assumptions. It's my fault for not resorting to those little smiley icons, I just don't like those things. That post was meant to be humorous, sorry for the misunderstanding. |
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Post by aldarron on Feb 3, 2010 9:38:43 GMT -6
Could we assume that dragons go into torpor or hibernation to handle a limited availability of resources? Dragons gorge themselves, mate, and then hibernate until other animal populations rebound. This could go far in explaining people's firm belief in the existence of dragons, even though the only person to have seen one was Jim-bob's great grandfather from yonder village. Exactly so, but in some of the dungeon cases you have in mind I suspect its just gonzo nonsense dungeon design for fun. Dragons living underground would only do so in places where they have the space to "hibernate" and to enter and exit freely. Also, the ecology of your dragons does not have to be strictly based on dinosaurs or what have you. Dragons are magical creatures and its not entirely clear what all they need to sustain themselves. Perhaps in addtion to fresh meat they can also eat rocks, earth and minerals. Perhaps even some of the reason they hoard treasures is as a potential food source. Perhaps a dragon likes nothing better than to drink from a pool of molten metals. Its your world after all. |
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Post by ragnorakk on Feb 3, 2010 12:50:30 GMT -6
They do it to avoid each-other, because those fights turn out bad for both, regardless of the winner.
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Post by badger2305 on Feb 3, 2010 21:12:58 GMT -6
I'm always wary of this kind of faux realism. Not saying it doesn't have a place in thinking about things, but be careful of boxing yourself into a corner by your assumptions. It's my fault for not resorting to those little smiley icons, I just don't like those things. That post was meant to be humorous, sorry for the misunderstanding. DuBeers - nope, I'm the one raining on parades, and I shouldn't have been so negative. This is a great discussion as we figure some of this stuff out. (And you're right about looking for treasure!)  |
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Post by chgowiz on Feb 4, 2010 8:54:31 GMT -6
Jeff - a dragon's gotta go potty SOMEWHERE... and they have 3,481 potty rules in very well laid out, logical fashion that have to be obeyed. It's a racial imperative.
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Post by badger2305 on Feb 4, 2010 9:36:52 GMT -6
Fewmets, my boy, fewmets. Exactly. Should've thought of it myself.
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Post by coffee on Feb 4, 2010 11:46:44 GMT -6
Dragons are known to be anti-social. And they have really bad breath. Plus, they're proud of all the nifty stuff they own.
So they live in the basement.
Remind you of anybody?
Oh my gawd! Dragons are teenaged gamers!
(Okay, now I'm even more scared of dragons than I was before...)
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capheind
Level 5 Thaumaturgist
Posts: 236
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Post by capheind on Feb 4, 2010 18:33:34 GMT -6
Dragons have a biology unlike any natural animal, and don't seem to live by the good normal and moral laws of physics, maybe you shouldn't be worried about how they got down there, but IF they traveled DOWN to begin with... some of those tunnels look like they go an awfully long way down..........
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Post by crusssdaddy on Feb 28, 2010 10:37:53 GMT -6
Dragons as wandering monsters in a dungeon have never appealed to me. However, in some campaigns I have given all dragons high intelligence and an innate ability to polymorph into human form - I can see a polymorphed dragon wandering a dungeon.
For a static encounter, I would either have to give them access to the outside world close at hand, or come up with some sort of rationale (imprisonment, torpor, insanity, etc.) to explain their presence in some room in a dungeon.
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capheind
Level 5 Thaumaturgist
Posts: 236
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Post by capheind on Feb 28, 2010 11:06:13 GMT -6
Why must dragons have to be surface creatures at all? Wings in a fantasy setting don't necessarily imply flight, batwings and birds-wings in middle ages Europe often signified demonic or angelic links and had little to nothing to do with flight itself. Dragons could have bat wings simply because they are evil wicked things that dwell deep in the earth closest to HELL.
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Post by coffee on Mar 1, 2010 0:00:56 GMT -6
Why must dragons have to be surface creatures at all? Wings in a fantasy setting don't necessarily imply flight, batwings and birds-wings in middle ages Europe often signified demonic or angelic links and had little to nothing to do with flight itself. Dragons could have bat wings simply because they are evil wicked things that dwell deep in the earth closest to HELL. Good point! It isn't mentioned in the text anywhere, and not obvious until you look at the illustrations in the AD&D Monster Manual, but the Gold Dragon (the only Lawful (and later Good)) dragon does NOT have wings. Food for thought, there. Have an exalt for a nifty way of looking at things! |
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delve
Level 4 Theurgist
Posts: 170
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Post by delve on Mar 1, 2010 11:22:09 GMT -6
I had this idea in my head on the topic of Dragons in dungeons,
1. Dragons hide their treasure deep below ground, where it is less likely to be found, they know where all tunnels and entrances are into their horde, easy to keep track of who's coming and going.
2. How do they survive down there? Dragons hunt and go on binge eatings, they leave their hordes - possibly defended by their own hirelings, while they go out to feed. Dragons can reserve energy like a bear hibernating, meaning they can go for months without food.
I like the concept of them not having wings, like giant crocodiles *saw a really cool example of this in The Savage Sword of Conan Vol 1.*
One thing I didn't agree with in the later editions, is how d**n big they made dragons, I always pictured them, their body the size of an elephant, thus the possibility of even fiting into a dungeon setting.
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capheind
Level 5 Thaumaturgist
Posts: 236
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Post by capheind on Mar 1, 2010 11:28:28 GMT -6
In a setting where adventuring and spelunking in ancient caves, ruins, and dungeons is common we can assume that Player Characters make up a big part of the food chain, maybe thats why dragons collect such large hordes, to ensure that the little protein packed primates come to them.
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akiyama
Level 4 Theurgist
Posts: 103
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Post by akiyama on Mar 19, 2010 23:18:44 GMT -6
One could design the dungeon around the dragon.
I have in mind something like B2 - a dungeon consisting of a number of distinct areas connected to each other and to the surface. Most of the dungeon would consist of huge caverns and long, wide tunnels. Such a dungeon could include lots of big monsters, not just dragons. It would be like B2 for higher level characters. One might also have a lower level of the dungeon on a similar scale but cut off from the surface, with more weird and sinister monsters, and underground lakes and rivers.
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Post by coffee on Mar 20, 2010 0:18:59 GMT -6
One could design the dungeon around the dragon. I have in mind something like B2 - a dungeon consisting of a number of distinct areas connected to each other and to the surface. Most of the dungeon would consist of huge caverns and long, wide tunnels. Such a dungeon could include lots of big monsters, not just dragons. It would be like B2 for higher level characters. One might also have a lower level of the dungeon on a similar scale but cut off from the surface, with more weird and sinister monsters, and underground lakes and rivers. I like it. Give characters a close-in, tight dungeon, and they're happy. The enemy can only advance on a narrow front, so they're better defended. But, put them in a wide-open area, where they can only see so far, and it's just about guaranteed to make them even more paranoid! And I've wanted to do something with underground lakes since about 1982 or so... |
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Post by Falconer on Mar 20, 2010 0:21:59 GMT -6
Dragons are quite at home in dungeons. They are, after all, great worms, and everyone knows that worms live under the ground. After amassing a comfortable treasure and eating the previous owners, they like to hibernate for a few centuries, dreaming happily of gold. |
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