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Post by vladtolenkov on Nov 19, 2007 16:01:59 GMT -6
I've been thinking about Barsoom and OD&D a bit recently, and I was trying to reconcile the fact that the Martians in Burroughs pretty much seem to be without Platemail, Chainmail, Leather Armor, or even clothes most of the time.
So here's one possible way of dealing with this in OD&D. I realize this isn't going to be to everyone's tastes, but I'd like to hear some alternate solutions as well (Dex Bonuses?? Increased HP?? LET everybody just have crappy ACs??)
Defensive Bonus (subtract from starting AC).
Level Fighter Magic-User Cleric
I -1 -1 -1 II -2 -1 -2
III -3 -1 -2 IV -4 -2 -3
V -5 -2 -3
VI -5 -2 -4
VII -6 -3 -4
VIII -6 -3 -5
IX -7 -3 -5
X -7 -4 -6
XI -8 -4 -6 A shield also subtracts 1 from AC.
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Post by vladtolenkov on Nov 19, 2007 16:07:53 GMT -6
Sorry, I couldn't get the table to space properly.
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Post by coffee on Nov 19, 2007 17:50:15 GMT -6
I'd have to look, but I don't recall them using shields.
I think what you have here would work very well. Kind of reminds me of the D20 Star Wars game. (I'm not sure what the AC of the monsters would be, though, or how that would affect this.)
One alternate system would be to adjust the 'to hit' numbers upward. Instead of needing a 10 to hit AC 9, maybe a 15 or 16. But that's just off the top of my head.
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Post by thorswulf on Nov 19, 2007 22:20:52 GMT -6
I'd keep the to hit scores as they are, but I would let higher level characters make a number of attacks equal to their level/fighting ability. From what I gather in SR a level 4 hero attacks four normal (1 Hd or less creatures) opponents per round. Higher hit dice creatures are only attacked once per round. This would let fighting men wipe out hordes of gaurds and the like, ala John Carter!
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Post by vladtolenkov on Nov 20, 2007 1:18:47 GMT -6
Coffee, you're absolutely right about the shields.
Melee on Barsoom should be shield-less swashbuckling with a rapier and nothing but a weird metal harness or some such.
I'm imagining that ACs for beasties would be assigned not on the basis of the above table but would be assigned (as they are in D&D) based on the overall defensive capability of the creature. Although, I suppose higher HD monsters might have ACs that reflect their increased nastiness. The defensive would work primarily for PC and NPC characters as a way to offset the fact that characters on Barsoom can't upgrade to better armor or protective magics.
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Post by coffee on Nov 20, 2007 11:12:37 GMT -6
I understand completely, and I withdraw my variant of changing the to hit numbers. I see now that it's a better system (and a lot less work!) just to use the table given above.
Do please let us know how this works, when and if you actually use it.
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Post by thorswulf on Nov 23, 2007 22:58:57 GMT -6
Regarding shields on Barsoom, I seem to remember them being used by some Martian race that used hooked swords. can't remember which right off the top of my head though.
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Post by coffee on Nov 24, 2007 2:43:53 GMT -6
It's been too long since I've read them.
And the last time I tried to read them, I was a bit depressed by how wordy and amateurish they seemed. And yet I had loved them as a teenager.
But I do remember the hooked swords.
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Post by tgamemaster1975 on Nov 25, 2007 19:45:25 GMT -6
Interesting table, I think perhaps it might be of us also elsewhere in regard to barbarians and amazons in another thread. I will have to give it a try to next time we are using characters without armor.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2008 15:01:27 GMT -6
The yellow martians used small shields. I don't recall any other race using them.
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Post by doc on Jul 21, 2008 15:14:40 GMT -6
If I recall correctly, the Martians that used the hooked swords were called the Orovians.
Doc
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Post by blackbarn on Jul 22, 2008 1:30:53 GMT -6
The way I'd handle it is just assume the different classes had ACs equal to the best possible armor that class could wear in normal D&D. They wouldn't wear armor, but they'd effectively have the AC of an armored character. Obviously that's a big departure from D&D, but I feel it fits the nature of Barsoom. Unless there was going to be a crossover between Mars and your D&D world, I don't see it as a problem.
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Post by Finarvyn on Jul 22, 2008 17:35:28 GMT -6
The way I'd handle it is just assume the different classes had ACs equal to the best possible armor that class could wear in normal D&D. They wouldn't wear armor, but they'd effectively have the AC of an armored character.quote]That's an interesting take on AC -- kind of like the school of thought that gives different dice types for damage based on class (fighter weapons d8, cleric d6, magic-user d4), except for defense instead. Perhaps an option would be to blend vladtolenkov's table with your suggestion, so that characters would advance in AC as they advance in levels but with some sort of "AC cap" in place based on their best OD&D AC. Of course, some rules sets describe an AC bonus for high Dexterity scores. It might be good to combine this with the idea above. Must ponder this. Some good ideas here....
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Post by blackbarn on Jul 23, 2008 12:14:55 GMT -6
The way I'd handle it is just assume the different classes had ACs equal to the best possible armor that class could wear in normal D&D. They wouldn't wear armor, but they'd effectively have the AC of an armored character. That's an interesting take on AC -- kind of like the school of thought that gives different dice types for damage based on class (fighter weapons d8, cleric d6, magic-user d4), except for defense instead. Actually, I originally had the idea to do exactly that, and use class-based AC in conjunction with the class-based damage idea (for a more Sword & Sorcery-ish D&D variant reliant on PC "skill" not on weapons or armor*). I never actually ran a game that way, but still find the concept interesting, especially for a setting in which armor isn't used, like Barsoom. If you can develop it into something more, I'd be curious to see the results. *PS: If I was going to add real armor to a game using that rule (since even Conan wears armor at times), I'd considered a class-based die as "defense" which would be rolled vs the class-based damage die (subtract defense die from damage die) to see how many HPs of damage got through. That way even a d4 damage die could beat a d8 (or higher) defense die, but it wouldn't be likely. Anyhow, just some ideas.
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Post by castiglione on Jul 23, 2008 21:55:04 GMT -6
I would just make AC directly related to the level of the "target". The only question is how rapidly AC would decrease with level.
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Post by grodog on Jul 24, 2008 16:49:36 GMT -6
Armor?!?---Barsoomians don't wear clothes much less armor
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Post by blackbarn on Jul 24, 2008 17:51:00 GMT -6
Armor?!?---Barsoomians don't wear clothes much less armor Thus this whole discussion of what to do regarding their AC.
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Post by castiglione on Aug 29, 2008 23:12:14 GMT -6
I wouldn't do a straight port of the OD&D rules to a Barsoomian environment. After all, the average situation is different from that in D&D.
I'd probably make the combat charts be level vs. level as opposed to level vs. AC. Any armor (if any...probably only shields) would give the defender a defensive level bonus. Since combat in Barsoom is more "bombastic", I'd probably add some detail since the more abstract nature of OD&D combat probably wouldn't fit too well into this setting. OD&D is about exploration and solving puzzles and grabbing treasure. Barsoomian adventures are about falling in love with incomparable Martian princesses and getting into one vs. one combat with arch enemies. Seen from this light, I'd probably definitely add more options to combat since you can't really run away as easily as in OD&D because there are just so many social stigmas attached to "cowardly" behavior.
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Post by blackbarn on Aug 30, 2008 16:05:34 GMT -6
I wouldn't do a straight port of the OD&D rules to a Barsoomian environment. After all, the average situation is different from that in D&D. I'd probably make the combat charts be level vs. level as opposed to level vs. AC. Any armor (if any...probably only shields) would give the defender a defensive level bonus. Since combat in Barsoom is more "bombastic", I'd probably add some detail since the more abstract nature of OD&D combat probably wouldn't fit too well into this setting. OD&D is about exploration and solving puzzles and grabbing treasure. Barsoomian adventures are about falling in love with incomparable Martian princesses and getting into one vs. one combat with arch enemies. Seen from this light, I'd probably definitely add more options to combat since you can't really run away as easily as in OD&D because there are just so many social stigmas attached to "cowardly" behavior. I like the level vs. level idea! And I agree, the rules should probably reflect Barsoom a bit more than a straight port of D&D. One idea I had was, instead of armor, have some kind of character trait defined on the character sheet. John Carter might have a trait like "Love of Dejah Thoris" and it adds to his combat ability whenever he is fighting to save her, defend her honor, etc. There could be any number of traits possible depending on each character's nature, which would grant some kind of ability or bonus (or even penalty) in particular circumstances. Some of the honor-based ideas could be worked into game mechanics using an idea like this, too. But maybe the whole concept is too story-based and not old-school enough?
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Post by castiglione on Aug 30, 2008 19:53:02 GMT -6
I like the trait idea but you are right about whether it's "old-school". I actually played with the idea of adding "hero points" to reflect because I felt they would probably be needed to let the PC get out of near-death scrapes since he won't be able to run (unless there are no witnesses!) or else be ostracized from Martian society. But I wasn't sure whether "hero points" are old-school or not! If one thinks about it, hit points were basically the first manifestation of "hero points". They also appeared in some very early role-playing games (Top Secret had a variation of them, Commando had them and the pseudo-role-playing board game The Return of the Stainless Steel Rat also had them).
Maybe "traits" could take the place of alignment? Have some defined traits which signify an over-reaching motivation in the character's life?
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Post by blackbarn on Aug 31, 2008 1:57:05 GMT -6
I think some kind of primary motivation would be a good replacement for alignment. I'm not sure the D&D style alignment would be needed in a Barsoom game, and obviously motivations play a large part in the stories. And if we are keeping it OD&D in spirit, the motivations would have to be applicable in many situations, not just some end "goal" for the character, like a character arc. The trick here is to keep it an open-ended adventure game with a Barsoomian theme to it, not go down the path to genre emulation or forcing the game to play out like a John Carter story. There may be neat ways to do the latter, but it doesn't seem appropriate for this thread and this forum. Good ideas though. I keep watching this thread, not because I plan to run a Barsoom game, but because there are cool ideas to be discussed.
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Post by badger2305 on Aug 31, 2008 8:14:49 GMT -6
I actually played with the idea of adding "hero points" to reflect because I felt they would probably be needed to let the PC get out of near-death scrapes since he won't be able to run (unless there are no witnesses!) or else be ostracized from Martian society. But I wasn't sure whether "hero points" are old-school or not! "Hero points" are totally old school; they show up in all sorts of early campaigns, often as a balance to things like "klutz rolls" for spells. Mention of hero points and the like shows up in A&E and The Wild Hunt and other 'zines from back in the misty past.
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Post by castiglione on Sept 27, 2008 5:29:58 GMT -6
The only problem I can see with my level vs. level idea is just that there could be a high whiff factor unless you balanced the charts so that people of the same level had a 50% chance of hitting each other (or something at least "reasonable").
Another approach would be, as suggested by someone over at Dragonsfoot or RPGSite, to use a Gamma World variant...the average beginning PC would have 40+ hit points so getting hit by a 1d6 or 1d8 weapon wouldn't be bad (at least, not initially).
If you wanted to account for the lack of armor, you might have AC based on what weapon you're holding (based on the fact that certain weapons are better for parrying than others...a knife...terrible for parrying...a sword...much better for parrying...so this would translate into a better AC for the guy waving the sword in his hand...however a knife COMBINED with another weapon would confer a bonus in AC...as some fencing styles have you parry with dagger and use sword to poke big holes in bad guy).
Just a suggestion. Gamma World might be the better fit since D & D seems to be more of the "adventurers exploring and solving puzzles and running away from a lot of crazy stuff" whilst Gamma World is...well, it's the same but characters are beefier to begin with so they can get away initially with running away a little less (inappropriate on Barsoom except in certain situations) and standing and delivering a little more.
Anyway, there are probably a load of different ways of doing this all based on the same OD&D framework.
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Post by castiglione on Sept 27, 2008 5:33:37 GMT -6
Heck - you could even have AC related to CHR!
Except CHR wouldn't be CHR...it'd be more like your REKNOWN on Barsoom.
Better reknown, the more Martian Princesses swoon, the more other Martian guys wanna be like Mike (you) and follow you to the death and also the more intimidated hostile Martian guys are thrown a little off their stride when they finally cross swords with you.
And have REKNOWN be slowly increasable depending on how many bad guys you kill, how many princesses you've woo'ed, etc.
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Post by blackbarn on Sept 27, 2008 7:54:48 GMT -6
Lots of good ideas. I especially like the weapon parrying factor contributing to AC idea... that could really work well for this.
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