|
|
Post by havard on Oct 3, 2009 9:34:51 GMT -6
I've heard talk of the Blackmoor maps being based off some old Duch maps. OTOH, Dave Arneson talks in the FCC about a C&C Society map where he "reserved" a location for his campaign. Since Gygax was the founder of the C&C society, it is not unlikely that he was the one who made the map. IIRC this map was roughly based on the map of North America, with Gary's campaign taking place in Wisconsin (Lake Geneva) and Dave's campaign set in Minnesota. Actually, looking at some US maps now, I see some striking resemblances between the maps of Blackmoor and the part of Lake Superior which borders to Minnesota (Superior Bay?)!  Any thoughts on this? Havard |
|
|
|
Post by Mr. Darke on Oct 3, 2009 10:55:31 GMT -6
It is possible. As far as I understand the stories the whole of the original Great Kingdom was that area (Greyhawk being Chicago, Dyvers being Milwaukee IIRC). Something that, true or not, made it into my world.
|
|
|
|
Post by Finarvyn on Oct 3, 2009 22:02:48 GMT -6
There are a couple of versions of the story that I've heard, so I really don't know for certain which is true.
1. Both Blackmoor and Greyhawk campaigns were tied to the old SCA kingdoms map. (This certainly fits the Greyhawk=Chicago model that Gary has stated but, since the original Blackmoor campaign was not directly linked to the original Greyhawk campaign, it doesn't really explain Blackmoor's coastline. Also, I can't recall if Dave has ever made this claim, or if it was a Gary-only thing.)
2. Blackmoor was based on Dutch maps, only possibly inverted or reversed or somehow in a way that makes them hard to identify. (I've spent a lot of time looking at Dutch coastlines and haven't been able to match anything up close enough to match Dave's maps. However, since this is Dave's version of the story I'm inclined to put a lot of faith into it.)
|
|
|
|
Post by havard on Oct 4, 2009 7:27:52 GMT -6
There are a couple of versions of the story that I've heard, so I really don't know for certain which is true. I have heard these two versions before as well. However, have you ever considered that they might *both* be true?  There is a statement from the FCC supporting this. Dave refers to the C&C map, but I assume that is the same thing? Here is a quick link to a map I found: www.sylvanglen.org/sca/images/worldmap1.gif This version is from 1989, so I dont know if earlier versions were different? Note that Dave's statement in the FCC doesn't say that he based the coastlines on that map, simply that he reserved that area for his campaign. However, zooming in on maps of that area with googlemaps (Northwestern part of Lake Superior) does reveal striking resemblances to parts of the Blackmoor coastline. I've been looking at Dutch maps too, same result. But what if we have been looking for the wrong things? What if the coastlines were based on the Lake Superior area, but that inland areas like the complex river systems of the Dismal Swamp etc was taken from Dutch maps? Havard |
|
|
|
Post by Finarvyn on Oct 4, 2009 18:05:20 GMT -6
Havard, you make some good points. I'll have to look at Superior maps for coastlines to see how close I can match any. I'd be interested to see your results as well. :-)
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 4, 2009 21:53:34 GMT -6
Here's a question you must consider... Which map are you looking at?
The reality of the situation is thus: every large map ever used for Blackmoor has been based on Bob Bledsaw's re-rendering of Dave's original map!
The 10-mile per hex maps included originally with First Fantasy Campaign were rendered not by Dave, but by Bob... unmistakably so, as Bob was the cartographer of Judges Guild, and they were done in his style. And every map you've ever seen since then... the TSR maps, the 3E maps, and presumably the 4E maps, were based on Bob's version, not Dave's original!
As far as I can determine, the only original Blackmoor map by Dave that has ever been published is the map on page 12 of the First Fantasy Campaign.
This map is significantly different from that of the 10-mile per hex map rendered by Bob. The significant major differences are:
1) As mentioned, the inclusion of the Valley of the Ancients... on the original map, there was merely desert there, no mention of the valley!
2) The "Sinking Lands" were not at all sunken! You can see that the land of the Elf Forest crosses the "Sinking Lands" in the east, and continues on the lands we would regard as "north" of the "inner seas" that are marked as "The Black Sea" in the later TSR edition.
3) In fact, all the "inner seas" sections are rather more reduced in size in the original, while conversely, much more space is taken up by swamp! This can be seen from the relative locations of the various towns, villages, and castles on the original map, which are pretty much in the same relation to each other as on the Bledsaw version of the map.
4) The Great Ocean coastline in the Bledsaw map (known as The North Sea in the TSR map) is quite different in many ways from the original map, as are many of the river paths and especially the various lagoons and estuaries along that coast.
5) There are also a lot of new mountains in the Bledsaw map... for example, what are known as the "Stormkiller Mountains" on the TSR map first appear on the Bledsaw map... there are no mountains between Bramwald and the Elven Forest on the original map.
6) Too, there are a lot more lochs, lakes, and such in the swamp lands on the Bledsaw map as compared to the original map.
7) Finally, there are other details added or changed here and there... Starmorgan, for example, does not exist on the original map. The Egg of Coot is a region north of the northernmost swamps, not a peninsula in the inner seas.
Altogether, one must needs take into account the fact that the Bledsaw map, like the Darlene map of Greyhawk, is not necessarily the same as the original campaign map, and can be significantly different from the original in many ways!
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 4, 2009 23:16:05 GMT -6
|
|
|
|
Post by havard on Oct 5, 2009 13:07:58 GMT -6
Excellent finds James! Also, you make a good point about which versions of the Blackmoor map we have been looking at. It is embarassing to admit, but it never ocurred to me to rotate the dutch maps like this. Very observant of you! More on this later. Havard |
|
|
|
Post by grodog on Oct 6, 2009 22:15:32 GMT -6
There are a couple of versions of the story that I've heard, so I really don't know for certain which is true. 1. Both Blackmoor and Greyhawk campaigns were tied to the old SCA kingdoms map. (This certainly fits the Greyhawk=Chicago model that Gary has stated but, since the original Blackmoor campaign was not directly linked to the original Greyhawk campaign, it doesn't really explain Blackmoor's coastline. Also, I can't recall if Dave has ever made this claim, or if it was a Gary-only thing.) I hadn't heard that there was an SCA connection before, I think: can you shed some more light on that please? My recollection is that Gary included links to Blackmoor in the original GH campaign, and that was because the PCs did in fact move back and forth among the two games from time to time (notably Gary, Rob Kuntz, and Mike Mornard, at minimum). The original Great Kingdom and Blackmoor were created during the Castles & Crusades Society days, and details about each kingdom were published in The Domesday Book and/or in IFW newsletters. I think. If anyone can clarify my recollections, please do so! |
|
|
|
Post by coffee on Oct 6, 2009 22:39:09 GMT -6
I dont' think the SCA connection would amount to much. My understanding (limited though it is) is that the overall map of the Castle & Crusades Society was drawn up to accommodate all the players, i.e.; several of them. And yet, in 1970, the SCA only had three kingdoms (maybe 4). That doesn't seem like a whole lot for the players to squabble over.
If Greyhawk represented Lake Geneva (or even Chicago), and Blackmoor represented the Twin Cities area, they'd both be in the Middle Kingdom. (There's a map of the Society from 1970, but there's very little detail.)
Anyway, that's what I can add. I'd love to be shown to be wrong, though!
|
|
|
|
Post by Finarvyn on Oct 7, 2009 12:52:18 GMT -6
Perhaps I'm confusing the Great Kingdom from the SCA from the Great Kingdom of the C&C Society.  I was thinking that the C&C Society was loosely based on the SCA map, but I'll check to see if I have any sources for this. I don't have access to the Domesday Book newsletters and those probably explain this in greater detail. |
|
|
|
Post by havard on Oct 7, 2009 14:44:56 GMT -6
Perhaps I'm confusing the Great Kingdom from the SCA from the Great Kingdom of the C&C Society. I was thinking that the C&C Society was loosely based on the SCA map, but I'll check to see if I have any sources for this. I don't have access to the Domesday Book newsletters and those probably explain this in greater detail. In the FCC, Dave speaks of having reserved an area on the C&C map. This is where my investigations started I'm not really sure of the relations between the C&C society and the SCA Society? Havard |
|
|
|
Post by Mr. Darke on Oct 8, 2009 9:36:40 GMT -6
It is quite possible that the SCA map was an idea generator much as the stories of the C&C map was an idea generator for my world.
|
|
|
|
Post by coffee on Oct 8, 2009 11:52:00 GMT -6
Does anyone have any hard data on where this connection to the SCA map came from? Because this is really the first I'm hearing of it.
The only (tenuous) connection I ever heard of the SCA and D&D was that Gary Gygax had made sandals for some monks in a monastery near Lake Geneva. Some SCA people saw them and wanted some, so he made them.
So that's not even Blackmoor at all.
Again, if I'm wrong, if there is some bona fide connection, I'll be most happy to be proven wrong. But if there is, I've never heard of it.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 10, 2009 11:43:15 GMT -6
For those unaware or sceptical, yeah, James is right. This was the way BM was invented. What I know about the Outdoor map, the versions I have seen ALL were just hex maps/contained no geography; it's possible that Mr Arneson used the conventions - depth of the water, height and nature of the mountains, etc. - for his BM map.
|
|
|
|
Post by gsvenson on Oct 13, 2009 11:03:30 GMT -6
For what it is worth, the players in Dave's original games didn't know what the terrain of an area was like unless they actually went to the location and saw it for themselves. We had no overall campaign map to look at (Dave did, of course, but we never saw it).
|
|
|
|
Post by robertsconley on Oct 14, 2009 10:44:17 GMT -6
|
|
|
|
Post by isomage on Oct 29, 2009 1:50:37 GMT -6
Interesting stuff. How does this map fit into the history? |
|
|
|
Post by havard on Oct 29, 2009 8:33:53 GMT -6
|
|
|
|
Post by Finarvyn on Oct 29, 2009 14:33:31 GMT -6
Yeah, I think Dave also addresses this map in the FFC book. He decided to adjust his original map in order to fit with the rest of the Judges' Guild "Wilderlands" map. I really like the FFC map, and it's essentially the same as what has been done later (and graphically better) but the early map is neat as well.
It would be interesting to take the early map and superimpose a hex grid...
|
|
Phenster Dragorgn
Level 1 Medium
Creating and playing Dreaming Amon-Gorloth, a dungeon and wilderness adventure campaign using Holmes
Posts: 15
|
Post by Phenster Dragorgn on Jan 10, 2022 11:36:25 GMT -6
I used James Mishler’s method on the map Rob used for Blackmarsh with the earlier Blackmoor map (surfaced around 2016, I think). The finger-shaped tidal flat aligns pretty good but not much else. The Blackmoor Finger www.donjonlands.com/2022/01/the-blackmoor-finger.html |
|
|
|
Post by aldarron on Feb 3, 2022 21:30:38 GMT -6
I used James Mishler’s method on the map Rob used for Blackmarsh with the earlier Blackmoor map (surfaced around 2016, I think). The finger-shaped tidal flat aligns pretty good but not much else. The Blackmoor Finger www.donjonlands.com/2022/01/the-blackmoor-finger.htmlInteresting look. I think you missed my POST - probably because I was focusing on scale more than the map itself. I actually doubt Arenson's "old dutch map" was really all that old. The reason he used a Dutch map was because they had recently planed a Nappy campaign in holland, but the Napoleonics era maps don't seem to fit quite right. I think he may well have been using something out of an "old" library atlas from like the 1930's or some such. The Rand McNally map I picked in the post actually fit surprisingly well, for example. It is the strand that matches up most clearly. |
|
Phenster Dragorgn
Level 1 Medium
Creating and playing Dreaming Amon-Gorloth, a dungeon and wilderness adventure campaign using Holmes
Posts: 15
|
Post by Phenster Dragorgn on Feb 4, 2022 15:50:02 GMT -6
I used James Mishler’s method on the map Rob used for Blackmarsh with the earlier Blackmoor map (surfaced around 2016, I think). The finger-shaped tidal flat aligns pretty good but not much else. The Blackmoor Finger www.donjonlands.com/2022/01/the-blackmoor-finger.htmlInteresting look. I think you missed my POST - probably because I was focusing on scale more than the map itself. I actually doubt Arenson's "old dutch map" was really all that old. The reason he used a Dutch map was because they had recently planed a Nappy campaign in holland, but the Napoleonics era maps don't seem to fit quite right. I think he may well have been using something out of an "old" library atlas from like the 1930's or some such. The Rand McNally map I picked in the post actually fit surprisingly well, for example. It is the strand that matches up most clearly. Thanks, aldarron. Can you post a copy of the Dutch map so we can see what's beneath Arneson's map? |
|
|
|
Post by aldarron on Feb 5, 2022 8:27:50 GMT -6
Thanks, aldarron. Can you post a copy of the Dutch map so we can see what's beneath Arneson's map? I chose that one just because I was looking for something that would be good for trying to determine the scale of Arneson's map, but was surprised at how well the two fit together - especially after trying to make Napoleonic era maps work. It wouldn't shock me at all if Arneson used an old Rand Mcnally atlas like this one. Check your PM. |
|
|
|
Post by retrorob on Feb 6, 2022 4:33:50 GMT -6
|
|
|
|
Post by Malchor on May 20, 2022 18:39:17 GMT -6
Interesting look. I think you missed my POST - probably because I was focusing on scale more than the map itself. I actually doubt Arenson's "old dutch map" was really all that old. The reason he used a Dutch map was because they had recently planed a Nappy campaign in holland, but the Napoleonics era maps don't seem to fit quite right. I think he may well have been using something out of an "old" library atlas from like the 1930's or some such. The Rand McNally map I picked in the post actually fit surprisingly well, for example. It is the strand that matches up most clearly. Maybe this is a stretch, but Arneson says in FFC, "originally drawn from some old Dutch maps" and "Much of the rationale and scale was based on data found with the Dutch maps." Is it possible Arneson is speaking of maps made by the Dutch, rather than maps of the Kingdom of Holland? Either way, keep the scale in mind, the FFC map is 35 hex tall, for 350 miles. |
|
I was thinking that the C&C Society was loosely based on the SCA map, but I'll check to see if I have any sources for this. I don't have access to the Domesday Book newsletters and those probably explain this in greater detail.
